PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Barcid]

By your logic, we should cancel the Rafale, go back to buying Mirage 2000s and F-16A/Cs, instead of purchasing Su-57s, Su-75s, or developing things like AMCA.
Iran "defeated" the United States with F-5s and a few beat-up F-14s, so the U.S. should retire its F-22s and F-35s and go back to buying F-5s and F-14s — besides, I just like Top Gun.
And let's not forget: in the '90s, NATO coalition forces bombed Serbia — a country not even as big as the Donbas region — for 40 days, yet they still couldn't hunt down and wipe out all the MiG-29s. Those battle-hardened "three-dynasty veterans" are still serving in Serbia today, and have even been equipped with Chinese missiles.
As for the F-117 and F-35, they must have been shot down by magic, or maybe the American pilots sneezed or something. Might as well just go back to 1963. — In Vietnam, the U.S. military lost nearly 9,000 aircraft, lost the war, and its air force was utterly worthless.

No, by my logic we should build and buy aircraft which help us achieve air superiority.
1. US did achieve air superiority over Iran
2. NATO did achieve air superiority over Serbia
3. In Vietnam, the US navy and USAF achieved combat ratios of over 2:1 over Vietnamise jets. Even that wasn't deemed sufficient and Topgun program was launched. The US aircraft losses were due to ground fire, not due to lack of airpower.

Seems you have not understood my question or are deliberately pretending so. My question is not why Russia hasn't been able to win the war, but why it hasn't been able to achieve air superiority. You don't seem to have an answer for it.

 

[lmaoxd]

No, by my logic we should build and buy aircraft which help us achieve air superiority.
1. US did achieve air superiority over Iran
2. NATO did achieve air superiority over Serbia
3. In Vietnam, the US navy and USAF achieved combat ratios of over 2:1 over Vietnamise jets. Even that wasn't deemed sufficient and Topgun program was launched. The US aircraft losses were due to ground fire, not due to lack of airpower.

Seems you have not understood my question or are deliberately pretending so. My question is not why Russia hasn't been able to win the war, but why it hasn't been able to achieve air superiority. You don't seem to have an answer for it.

Mate Iran doesnt have anything close to the AD that ukraine has, Ukraine has among the densest AD on the PLANET, what part of that do you not understand? they inherited A LOT of stuff from the soviets and have also gotten a lot of things from the west as well. Also all the missile production sites are not in ukraine and are supplied by the west to western ukraine so they have a safe corridor cause russia cant attack europe.
Ukraine is supported by the entire intelligence apparatus of the most powerful military org on the planet by a mile.

If war was so easy then the US would be winning in Iran today. What russia can do right now is prevent any ukrainian aircraft from approching the frontlines and bomb anythin within a 80km distance from the frontline with ease while 200kms + with missiles.

What russia should have done is establish Air superiority at the start of their campaign but that in itself is kinda hard when your going against 25-30 S300 systems(49 when the SU collapsed but then age and cannibalization of parts reduced it to this) and a bunch of other AD like Tor(estimated 60-70 launchers in ukranian service) and Buk(6-10). Still they culd have done a much better job than what they did at the time. This is the AD they had in 2022 before partiots and IRST-Ts and other western systems got donated.

Iran has 4 of these s300 batteries in total lmao and all of them got fked in the israeli sabotage campaign in 2024 and 2025. They had very little ad. lmao. And the US still lost a F35 over iran(well not lost but that airframe is not coming back into service, its a writeoff)

 

[Barcid]

Mate Iran doesnt have anything close to the AD that ukraine has, Ukraine has among the densest AD on the PLANET, what part of that do you not understand? they inherited A LOT of stuff from the soviets and have also gotten a lot of things from the west as well. Also all the missile production sites are not in ukraine and are supplied by the west to western ukraine so they have a safe corridor cause russia cant attack europe.
Ukraine is supported by the entire intelligence apparatus of the most powerful military org on the planet by a mile.

If war was so easy then the US would be winning in Iran today. What russia can do right now is prevent any ukrainian aircraft from approching the frontlines and bomb anythin within a 80km distance from the frontline with ease while 200kms + with missiles.

What russia should have done is establish Air superiority at the start of their campaign but that in itself is kinda hard when your going against 25-30 S300 systems(49 when the SU collapsed but then age and cannibalization of parts reduced it to this) and a bunch of other AD like Tor(estimated 60-70 launchers in ukranian service) and Buk(6-10). Still they culd have done a much better job than what they did at the time. This is the AD they had in 2022 before partiots and IRST-Ts and other western systems got donated.

Iran has 4 of these s300 batteries in total lmao and all of them got fked in the israeli sabotage campaign in 2024 and 2025. They had very little ad. lmao. And the US still lost a F35 over iran(well not lost but that airframe is not coming back into service, its a writeoff)

Dude I fail to understand why can't you comprehend a basic point?

It doesn't matter how dense Ukrainian AD is, unless it can defeat stealth aircraft, it is vulnerable to be taken by DEAD operations by Su57. In case you disagree with this statement, do let me know.

In case you agree with it. Please help me understand, why this gift of god to mankind Su57, which blows Rafale out of water is unable to conduct DEAD operations against Ukrainian AD in 4 years of war.

And I repeat since apparently writing just once isn't enough, I am talking about achieving air superiority, not winning the war. So please bear in mind that US did achieve air superiority over Iran before bringing it up again.

 

[Rune]

Ukraine is fielding Mirage 2000 and F16s. If Su57 is so good, why hasn't Russia achieved air superiority over Ukraine?

What are you even on about. Russia has air superiority over Ukraine upto tactical depth. Su-34s have a free run bombing whatever they want.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

No, by my logic we should build and buy aircraft which help us achieve air superiority.
1. US did achieve air superiority over Iran
2. NATO did achieve air superiority over Serbia
3. In Vietnam, the US navy and USAF achieved combat ratios of over 2:1 over Vietnamise jets. Even that wasn't deemed sufficient and Topgun program was launched. The US aircraft losses were due to ground fire, not due to lack of airpower.

Seems you have not understood my question or are deliberately pretending so. My question is not why Russia hasn't been able to win the war, but why it hasn't been able to achieve air superiority. You don't seem to have an answer for it.

I’ve already admitted that Ukrainian aircraft have air superiority over the Ukrainian battlefield, with the “Ghost of Kyiv” chasing Su-57s and Su-34s all over the sky.

Besides, in Top Gun, it’s also Tom Cruise flying an Iran F-14 and chasing two Su-57s.

 

[Barcid]

What are you even on about. Russia has air superiority over Ukraine upto tactical depth. Su-34s have a free run bombing whatever they want.

Yeah man 40 Su34 destroyed really proves their free run.

 

[batman]

Dude I fail to understand why can't you comprehend a basic point?

It doesn't matter how dense Ukrainian AD is, unless it can defeat stealth aircraft, it is vulnerable to be taken by DEAD operations by Su57. In case you disagree with this statement, do let me know.

In case you agree with it. Please help me understand, why this gift of god to mankind Su57, which blows Rafale out of water is unable to conduct DEAD operations against Ukrainian AD in 4 years of war.

And I repeat since apparently writing just once isn't enough, I am talking about achieving air superiority, not winning the war. So please bear in mind that US did achieve air superiority over Iran before bringing it up again.

Because warfare is also optics, American 5th gens like F22 is used to shoot down ballons and F35 against undeveloped armies, American wouldn't use them against modern navies, heck their fear of sending those F35 over Ukraine should be more than proof enough and its not like F35 haven't been shot enough times to ruin it's so called stealth claims. Russia doesn't pretend stealth is a one off solution against modern air defence, so it's wise of them to not do sead with it, since American war machine propoganda is desperately trying to downplay the Su57

 

[PhotonVish]

Mate Iran doesnt have anything close to the AD that ukraine has, Ukraine has among the densest AD on the PLANET, what part of that do you not understand? they inherited A LOT of stuff from the soviets and have also gotten a lot of things from the west as well. Also all the missile production sites are not in ukraine and are supplied by the west to western ukraine so they have a safe corridor cause russia cant attack europe.
Ukraine is supported by the entire intelligence apparatus of the most powerful military org on the planet by a mile.

If war was so easy then the US would be winning in Iran today. What russia can do right now is prevent any ukrainian aircraft from approching the frontlines and bomb anythin within a 80km distance from the frontline with ease while 200kms + with missiles.

What russia should have done is establish Air superiority at the start of their campaign but that in itself is kinda hard when your going against 25-30 S300 systems(49 when the SU collapsed but then age and cannibalization of parts reduced it to this) and a bunch of other AD like Tor(estimated 60-70 launchers in ukranian service) and Buk(6-10). Still they culd have done a much better job than what they did at the time. This is the AD they had in 2022 before partiots and IRST-Ts and other western systems got donated.

Iran has 4 of these s300 batteries in total lmao and all of them got fked in the israeli sabotage campaign in 2024 and 2025. They had very little ad. lmao. And the US still lost a F35 over iran(well not lost but that airframe is not coming back into service, its a writeoff)

The unique utility of 5th gen is to secure air space from hostile activities, either hostile aircraft or hostile SAM system.

If Su-57 , a 5th gen aircraft can not perform sead/dead mission then how its better than let say Su-34.

I mean then 5th gen are obsolete if they can not perfom SEAD/DEAD and Su-34 are better as they are better for air-to-ground mission than any other russian aircraft in service ??

 

[Barcid]

I’ve already admitted that Ukrainian aircraft have air superiority over the Ukrainian battlefield, with the “Ghost of Kyiv” chasing Su-57s and Su-34s all over the sky.

Besides, in Top Gun, it’s also Tom Cruise flying an Iran F-14 and chasing two Su-57s.

I thought in Russian TopGun, its Konstantin Khabenskiey in a Su57 doing a Great Marianas Turkey shoot against Rafales, but good to see they get the same movie there.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

I thought in Russian TopGun, its Konstantin Khabenskiey in a Su57 doing a Great Marianas Turkey shoot against Rafales, but good to see they get the same movie there.

To be completely honest with you, Chinese filmmakers are currently planning a movie where the J-10 absolute decimates the Rafale—and as a diehard, full-time J-10 hater, this whole situation has left me completely humiliated, unable to even lift my head up.

 

[Barcid]

To be completely honest with you, Chinese filmmakers are currently planning a movie where the J-10 absolute decimates the Rafale—and as a diehard, full-time J-10 hater, this whole situation has left me completely humiliated, unable to even lift my head up.

So sad to see that Su57's great Marianas Turkey shoot only works against the Rafale. When Patriot and Iris-T activate their radars, its tuck your tail and run time.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

So sad to see that Su57's great Marianas Turkey shoot only works against the Rafale. When Patriot and Iris-T activate their radars, its tuck your tail and run time.

Ah yes, the magical Patriot system and that token European air defense missile—the one they trot out to flaunt "Western inclusivity and diversity"—turned out to be utterly useless against Iran’s meteor shower, flying motorcycles, and Su-34s. Just last week they were forced to tag along and cough up $300 billion in reparations to Iran. The ink on the agreement, I hear, is still wet.

But when it comes to taking down Su-57's！ Absolutely devastating. No contest.

 

[Barcid]

Ah yes, the magical Patriot system and that token European air defense missile—the one they trot out to flaunt "Western inclusivity and diversity"—turned out to be utterly useless against Iran’s meteor shower, flying motorcycles, and Su-34s. Just last week they were forced to tag along and cough up $300 billion in reparations to Iran. The ink on the agreement, I hear, is still wet.

But when it comes to taking down Su-57's！ Absolutely devastating. No contest.

Still prevented Russian air superiority against Ukraine no? Sad to see you rating great Su57 lower than Iran's meteor shower and flying motorcycles.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

Still prevented Russian air superiority against Ukraine no? Sad to see you rating great Su57 lower than Iran's meteor shower and flying motorcycles.

Ah, right. I’ve never been sparing with my words in believing that fifth-generation fighters—and air forces themselves—are becoming obsolete.
That said, the Su-57 is already the standout among them.

After all, I look at things differently from you; I don’t operate from the fandom-based stance that you have to rely on.

Still prevented Russian air superiority against Ukraine no?

All hail the ‘Ghost of Kiev’—the ace who shot down more Russian jets than Russia admits to having lost, and more credibility than the pilot had in reality.

 

[Barcid]

Ah, right. I’ve never been sparing with my words in believing that fifth-generation fighters—and air forces themselves—are becoming obsolete.
That said, the Su-57 is already the standout among them.

After all, I look at things differently from you; I don’t operate from the fandom-based stance that you have to rely on.

Yeah right, after writing 10s of fandom posts and being unable to explain why Russia hasn't achieved air superiority over Ukraine despite having the God's gift to airforces in Su57, your attempt to claim sanity is "cute".

In real world, Russia still uses USD 3 million Iskander and Kinzhal because it can't penetrate Ukrainian AD. Every launch of these missiles is a proof of ineffectiveness of Su57

 

[Rune]

In real world, Russia still uses USD 3 million Iskander and Kinzhal because it can't penetrate Ukrainian AD. Every launch of these missiles is a proof of ineffectiveness of Su57

Then why did US used TLAM, PRsM, JSSAM and JSSAM-ER against Iran when they had air superiority ? This guy can't even apply his own logic to his own statements.

 

[randomradio]

We are both using the exact same 26 letters of the English alphabet, yet for the life of me, I cannot comprehend the absolute gibberish you type out. What on earth do you mean by 'it’s fairer to compare fighter jets using sea-level thrust'? What's your grand plan here? Are these multi-million-dollar air-superiority weapons supposed to be racing down the runway, competing for the fastest cornering speed?

To somehow calculate that an aircraft powered by just half of an F-18’s powerplant—and a legacy F-18C at that, not even an F-18E—could somehow match the thrust-to-weight ratio of a heavy-duty Su-30MKI... you seriously need to check yourself into a hospital and get a psychological diagnosis for your terminal case of Western colonial worship

Because the aircraft itself no longer makes the kill, the weapon makes the kill. So the performance is now based on how well you can employ the weapon using your aircraft.

Rafale has superior acceleration, climb rate, roll rate, G performance at subsonic (11G), G performance at supersonic, takeoff and landing performance, supercruise, range at full payload etc. This is pure systems design superiority using just 75 kN engines.

If it's wrong, then try countering them.

The fact remains that nobody on this planet has ever laid eyes on your mythical 'AMCA.' If it actually exists, please, enlighten us with a real photo.

RCS testing of 1:1 airframe.

India’s AMCA Stealth Fighter Enters Critical RCS Trials After Satellite Images Expose Full-Scale Fifth-Generation Jet Model - Defence Security Asia

Recent satellite imagery exposing India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) engineering model at the ORANGE Radar Cross Section testing facility in Hyderabad has intensified global attention on New Delhi’s indigenous fifth-generation stealth fighter ambitions, marking a critical milestone...

defencesecurityasia.com

Second, you can't even fabricate a plausible designation for that phantom 110-140 kN engine you keep dreaming up.

It's in development.

Safran to Develop Engines for India’s Next-Generation AMCA Fighter Jet

France’s Safran has been selected to develop the engine for India’s next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet

militarnyi.com

Rolls-Royce offers to develop India's 5th-gen fighter jet engine with full IP rights

British aerospace giant Rolls-Royce has entered the race to develop an engine for India's AMCA stealth fighter, offering full IP rights and local co-development, setting up a contest with French defence firm Safran for one of the country's most strategic defence projects.

www.indiatoday.in

Third, the Su-57 remains supreme in its domain. The longest endurance, the sharpest agility, the most powerful radar, the longest-range air-to-air missiles, and the most devastating air-to-ground ordnance—all backed by a brutal, combat-proven record. The mere existence of the Su-57 utterly shatters your fragile worldview.
And fourth,

Su-57 remains supreme in development. It needs the Izd 30 first. Then it needs to achieve FOC and real world operations. And then it needs to be re-equipped with new technologies, like a GaN AESA radar and whatever else is still missing today. It's at a bare minimum 3 years away from any sort of supremacy. And then it has to be modernized to fully achieve its design RCS so it can compete with the F-22 class stealth. That will happen around the time the F-22 is withdrawn from service. That's at least 2040.

The Rafale is indeed a thoroughly overrated piece of junk. I mean, it’s already 2026, and the fact that there are still clowns hopelessly obsessed with this historical relic is mind-boggling. But watching someone attempt to use it to gaslight the Su-57 is a level of delusional circus I haven't witnessed in all my years on the internet.

Su-57's paper superiority versus Rafale's real world superiority?

At least let Su-57 get its engine and achieve FOC before claiming it's a real fighter.

Su-57 (2019-21) was supposed to compete with Rafale F3R (2018). Instead it's competing with Rafale F5 (2030).

Let's be real: running into a MiG-31BM or a Su-35S alone would already result in a swift, chaotic, kinetic slaughter for the Rafale----------It wouldn’t even be a dogfight; it would be a modern-day version of the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. How anyone possesses the sheer, unadulterated ignorance to try and pit it against a fifth-generation heavy-hitter like the Su-57 is completely beyond human comprehension

If it's wrong, then try countering them.

Those jets won't even see the Rafale.

The French have demonstrated BVR superiority of the Rafale over MKI in Garuda exercises. The IAF claims the Rafale is 200% superior to the MKI in BVR combat. That's reason enough.

Read the first two pages of this thread.

Thread 'The Rafale and what you know about it.'

Jun 20, 2019

I launch this subject to describe things that are not very well known on the Rafale and often of little interest to the general public.
I would begin by describing the philosophy of using the Rafale as developed by the French Air Force.
This philosophy is quite different from the one underlying the use of fighters by the United States and often explains the technical choices that have been made.

• Picdelamirand-oil
• Replies: 110
• Forum: Military Aviation

• 
• 

 

[randomradio]

View attachment 52284View attachment 52285



The first chart you posted successfully proved exactly what I said all along: that the US inflates its sea-level engine thrust figures by indexing them to Mach 0.4, whereas Russian engines utilize absolute, zero-velocity static thrust at sea level. Under the rigorous Russian testing benchmark, your precious F110 drops to a measly 10 tons of thrust.

--------------------That image you just provided clearly shows the horizontal axis starting right at '.6'—which matches the installed thrust curves of the F100-PW-200 on the F-15A with virtually zero deviation.
And today, the charts you dumped have once again exposed the truth: the US doesn’t just stop at Mach 0.4 to pad its numbers—they go all the way up to Mach 0.6 just to fake that 'sea-level' performance.






At the same time, you have once again personally debunked your own hilarious lie claiming that 'the F-16's inlet efficiency is far superior to the F-15, which supposedly suffers a 25% thrust loss.' Your own data just proved that entire narrative was nothing but a fabricated joke.

View attachment 52286

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
Furthermore, anyone with a shred of aerodynamic common sense knows that the static Pitot inlet on the F-16 is complete trash compared to the F-15's highly advanced, variable-geometry intake. Its pressure recovery efficiency is utterly inferior.
The F-16's static Pitot inlet was sacrificed entirely for extreme lightweighting. Once airspeed exceeds Mach 1.3, its total pressure recovery drops like a stone, as if it slammed into a concrete wall—performing significantly worse than even the ancient F-105.


If it's wrong, then try countering them.


Let me emphasize this one more time: you seriously need to learn how to comprehend the very images you keep spamming before you come here trying to bluff and scam everyone. Without a doubt, you are the undisputed star clown of this entire circus

Just as I predicted, in a desperate attempt to save face, you keep trapping yourself in a vicious cycle: fabricating a second, third, and fourth lie, only to watch them get systematically demolished one by one. You started this stubborn denial to salvage whatever dignity you had left, but the hilarious irony is that you’re only losing more of it with every single post.

By all means, please, keep digging your own grave like this.

Good catch there. I couldn't see the 6. On my monitor it looked like a zero. They look like 0, 5, and 1.0.

But it still doesn't change the fact that the F-15E loses a lot of thrust when installed compared to Su-27, which is an already well-known problem. The NASA paper also shows a 21% degradation without inlet adjustments. The bleed air and exhaust losses compound that problem. If the F-16 also faces the same problem, then it's stuck at static conditions too.

 

[randomradio]

Ukraine is fielding Mirage 2000 and F16s. If Su57 is so good, why hasn't Russia achieved air superiority over Ukraine?

They lack weapons and real-time sensors and networking to defeat mobile SAMs. They destroyed fixed sites early, but their anti-mobile caabilities are from NATO's 90s and early 2000s era.

All they can do today is what NATO did in the Gulf War and Iraq War, which is insufficient.

India bridged that gap on MKI with the EL/M 2060P pods. The Russians don't have an equivalent.

Rafale and F-35 can find and engage mobile SAMs in real-time in the same sortie.

What the MKI has is the minimum necessary to even put up a fight, and what Rafale and F-35 have is cutting edge today.

 

[randomradio]

To be completely honest with you, Chinese filmmakers are currently planning a movie where the J-10 absolute decimates the Rafale—and as a diehard, full-time J-10 hater, this whole situation has left me completely humiliated, unable to even lift my head up.

Hopefully the visual effects will be good.