This article is classic case of misinformation. 2021 deal for GE404 itself was above 70 cr per engine. Now we want GE414, inflation has happened, Rupee has depreciated, we want local assembly, ToT, spares, maintenance, etc. How can cost per engine still be 70 cr. Which moron was expecting cost to be 70 cr?
AMCA engine deal hits roadblock over GE’s threefold price demand
NEW DELHI: Negotiations for the GE F414 engines powering India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) have hit a wall, with the US aerospacewww.newindianexpress.com
Negotiations for the GE F414 engines powering India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) have hit a wall, with the US aerospace giant seeking prices nearly three times higher than earlier estimates, putting both costs and timelines for the flagship fighter programme at risk.
Though technical negotiations have been virtually completed, commercial discussions have stalled over engine pricing, technology transfer and manufacturing arrangements.
Sources in the defence establishment said the F414 engine was initially estimated to cost around Rs 70-80 crore per unit. But GE has now quoted prices almost three times higher, emerging as the principal sticking point in the commercial negotiations.
The negotiations cover not only engine procurement but also technology transfer, licensed manufacturing, maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facilities, spares, warranties, delivery schedules and future price-escalation mechanisms.
The issue assumes significance because the AMCA prototype programme alone requires 15 F414 engines for five flying prototypes, even before accounting for future requirements of the Tejas Mk-2 and Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) programmes.
Beyond the AMCA, the F414 is also slated to power the Tejas Mk-2 and TEDBF, taking India’s projected requirement for the engine to well over 200 units in the coming years.
“The company knows the programme is built around the F414 and that changing engines now would be extremely difficult. That gives GE significant leverage during commercial negotiations,” a source said.
Sources further said GE has sought around Rs 6,000 crore for setting up a dedicated F414 assembly and manufacturing line in India, which would cater to future requirements of the Tejas Mk-2, initial AMCA production batches and the TEDBF programme.
Indian negotiators are understood to have explored reducing the initial order quantity to ease the immediate financial burden, but discussions over pricing remain unresolved.
“Changing the engine at this stage is not like replacing a component. The F414 has already been factored into the design and development plans for the AMCA Mk-1 as well as the Tejas Mk-2. Any new engine would require fresh integration, software work, testing and certification,” a source said.
“The AMCA design itself has already been frozen. If another engine is eventually selected, it will have to be adapted to the aircraft’s existing configuration rather than the aircraft being redesigned around the engine,” the source added.
American contractors have perfected the art of price gouging, they don't even spare American forces. Why would they spare India who willingly put all their eggs in one basket.
Regardless, the article should be taken as fake news. It deliberately tries to spread misinformation by anchoring the price expectation to be around 70 cr, whereas it should be much higher than that.
So, the whole premise of the article is flawed. Thanks for the information. If f404 deal was nearly 70 cr per engine back in 2021. So, yeah it's stupid to assume f414 deal would be that in 2026. I think this is another case of cooking up news based upon limited information by media walas like you said.
₹200 Crore Per Engine: The Price Tag Stalling A Landmark India-US Defence Pact
The India-US GE F414 engine deal has hit a roadblock after steep price escalation pushed costs beyond ₹200 crore per engine. DRDO is now evaluating alternative engine options for the AMCA fighter programme., India News, Times Now
The ongoing bump in the forward movement of the deal has led to the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) actively scouting for alternate engine options for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Mk1.
There are two separate negotiations by two Indian entities going on as requirements are different. While HAL is pursuing for Mk2, ADA has is aiming for its 5th Gen fighter AMCA. ADA is focusing on the procurement of engines for the AMCA prototypes only.
"सर्वदिशाभ्यः सर्वं दुर्भाग्यं मयि आगच्छतु"₹200 Crore Per Engine: The Price Tag Stalling A Landmark India-US Defence Pact
The India-US GE F414 engine deal has hit a roadblock after steep price escalation pushed costs beyond ₹200 crore per engine. DRDO is now evaluating alternative engine options for the AMCA fighter programme., India News, Times Nowwww.timesnownews.com
The ongoing bump in the forward movement of the deal has led to the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) actively scouting for alternate engine options for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Mk1.
There are two separate negotiations by two Indian entities going on as requirements are different. While HAL is pursuing for Mk2, ADA has is aiming for its 5th Gen fighter AMCA. ADA is focusing on the procurement of engines for the AMCA prototypes only.
- Indian fighter programs
Lmao people are blaming IAF for this too. 
The quality of discourse have gone to gutters in the last few years within defence community thanks to fanboyism. There is very little interest among people to discuss a matter in a more nuanced manner without defaulting to institutional, organisational and political mudslinging. And then there is the constant labelling culture.
The quality of discourse have gone to gutters in the last few years within defence community thanks to fanboyism. There is very little interest among people to discuss a matter in a more nuanced manner without defaulting to institutional, organisational and political mudslinging. And then there is the constant labelling culture.
What I am saying is loss of not buying engines on time cost lot more than what we loose by overpaying...
Just bite the first bullet ..
Safran/ JV will also concluded thereafter..
Without the first step, others will also won't budge.
> We should stop expecting much from USA. 1 option is that we should check how much lower ToT% we would get at our expected price, get it for 1st batch of AMCA Mk1 & move on.
> Forget 4gen TEDBF, but AMCA TD can be flown perhaps with RD-33MK. It's like diff. b/w X-35 & F-35.
Meanwhile we've to improve our baseline capabilities in say 10 years.
> Since LCA, IAF+ADA+HAL guys strategy has been to make a TD air-frame which itself will be the final jet, with none to minimum physical skeleton modification. This causes delay in FF of a TD. Now since 25 years after LCA, no new combat jet's TD has flown.
> Engine certainly controls jet size, but this is not era of intentionally making a medium class jet with everything limited. We made mistakes by not using AL-31 or AL-41 or F100/F110 engines at least for TD.
> IM
we should get Iz-177 & inflate AMCA, the laziest thing we can do.
"Sticky harvesting"—that's the American pigs' usual way. The RD-33 is far superior to the GE414, and not just by a small margin. Had india chosen the RD-33 or the AL-31F early on, we wouldn't have run into all this trouble.₹200 Crore Per Engine: The Price Tag Stalling A Landmark India-US Defence Pact
The India-US GE F414 engine deal has hit a roadblock after steep price escalation pushed costs beyond ₹200 crore per engine. DRDO is now evaluating alternative engine options for the AMCA fighter programme., India News, Times Now
The ongoing bump in the forward movement of the deal has led to the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) actively scouting for alternate engine options for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Mk1.
There are two separate negotiations by two Indian entities going on as requirements are different. While HAL is pursuing for Mk2, ADA has is aiming for its 5th Gen fighter AMCA. ADA is focusing on the procurement of engines for the AMCA prototypes only.
AMCA engine deal hits roadblock over GE’s threefold price demand
NEW DELHI: Negotiations for the GE F414 engines powering India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) have hit a wall, with the US aerospace
Negotiations for the GE F414 engines powering India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) have hit a wall, with the US aerospace giant seeking prices nearly three times higher than earlier estimates, putting both costs and timelines for the flagship fighter programme at risk.
Though technical negotiations have been virtually completed, commercial discussions have stalled over engine pricing, technology transfer and manufacturing arrangements.
Sources in the defence establishment said the F414 engine was initially estimated to cost around Rs 70-80 crore per unit. But GE has now quoted prices almost three times higher, emerging as the principal sticking point in the commercial negotiations.
The negotiations cover not only engine procurement but also technology transfer, licensed manufacturing, maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facilities, spares, warranties, delivery schedules and future price-escalation mechanisms.
The issue assumes significance because the AMCA prototype programme alone requires 15 F414 engines for five flying prototypes, even before accounting for future requirements of the Tejas Mk-2 and Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) programmes.
Beyond the AMCA, the F414 is also slated to power the Tejas Mk-2 and TEDBF, taking India’s projected requirement for the engine to well over 200 units in the coming years.
“The company knows the programme is built around the F414 and that changing engines now would be extremely difficult. That gives GE significant leverage during commercial negotiations,” a source said.
Sources further said GE has sought around Rs 6,000 crore for setting up a dedicated F414 assembly and manufacturing line in India, which would cater to future requirements of the Tejas Mk-2, initial AMCA production batches and the TEDBF programme.
Indian negotiators are understood to have explored reducing the initial order quantity to ease the immediate financial burden, but discussions over pricing remain unresolved.
“Changing the engine at this stage is not like replacing a component. The F414 has already been factored into the design and development plans for the AMCA Mk-1 as well as the Tejas Mk-2. Any new engine would require fresh integration, software work, testing and certification,” a source said.
“The AMCA design itself has already been frozen. If another engine is eventually selected, it will have to be adapted to the aircraft’s existing configuration rather than the aircraft being redesigned around the engine,” the source added.
First of all, the article is fake news. Anybody with basic math sense can figure that out.
Second, if Rd33 is superior why doesn't anyone order it? Its not just India, even Turkey, who is Russia's long lost friend uses F404 instead of Rd33 series for Hurjet. Only China uses Rd93 for JF17 as they have no option.
The India airforce has been using RD33 and Al-31 series engines for 30+ years. We know exactly which engine is better.
Exactly, 1.1 to 1.4 billion for the engines, 800+ million for the assembly line.
Just imagine Su-75 flying before Tejas Mk-2
.People gonna make fun of us for such delay if Mk-2 did not fly before Su-75
.
I NEVER and I mean to say NEVER can understand what the *censored* HAL was doing from 2000-2021. Should have bought some 400-500 copies of F404.
I keep on hearing these excuses.
- But FOC was not done~ (Fook you and shove your FOC in your *censored*).
- But Money was not sanctioned~ (Fook you too!)
- But AURDAAAAR was not placed~ (I hope your mom did not order you!)
- But F404INAGHFGSFDHGHDGF-06 was not ready~ (So what the *censored* were you flying till 2014? Pickles? And why the *censored* you did not got it ready?)
There is NEVER any sense of planning among these HAL and MoD types.
First they select an American engine (Tejas and AMCA both!)
Then they do not preorder or stockpile.
What a bunch of cucks!
I will take first one any day, come whatever shit engine it has.
A better idea would have been to develop using Russian Engines and produce using European ones. EJ200 or M88-p3
I keep on hearing these excuses.
- But FOC was not done~ (Fook you and shove your FOC in your *censored*).
- But Money was not sanctioned~ (Fook you too!)
- But AURDAAAAR was not placed~ (I hope your mom did not order you!)
- But F404INAGHFGSFDHGHDGF-06 was not ready~ (So what the *censored* were you flying till 2014? Pickles? And why the *censored* you did not got it ready?)
There is NEVER any sense of planning among these HAL and MoD types.
First they select an American engine (Tejas and AMCA both!)
Then they do not preorder or stockpile.
What a bunch of cucks!
Look, there is a plane which flies and one that gathers dust in HAL warehouse.
I will take first one any day, come whatever shit engine it has.
A better idea would have been to develop using Russian Engines and produce using European ones. EJ200 or M88-p3
When Indian territory was invaded by Pakistan in Kargil, IAF integrated the Israeli laser pods to Mirage 2000 and gave clearance to operate them within 12 days. No 5 year plan and no invitation card. It literally happened within days. Or else it would have taken atleast 7 to 8 years. By 2010 you would have been seeing first LGBs being integrated, imagine the lethargy.
This FOC, and other clearances is a bureaucratic trap, when war comes it is bypassed.
A bird in hand is worth two in bush.
We are more interested in buying the best engine for maintenance rather than building the best aircraft for fighting. Now if we end up buying GE engines , the higher price will virtually negate the cost benefit that we had selected it for.
India should simply pursue the engine that we can get and produce it in large numbers locally. India is not a country short of ppl , we can effective make up for the deficiency one way or the other.
Our goal should be to rapidly build lot many squadrons to make up for the shortfall instead we are stuck with this monkey business of saving few pennies, as they say penny wise pound foolish. We spend more shit on these useless subsidies like ladli behan yojana, free bus, free electricity without a blink but think million times for 10 years for defence purchase.
exactly , better have a jet flies than one on the drawing board. Its not the bloody engine that fights, there are other important components from weapons to radar, ECM...etc we could have focused on. The very idea telling americans that we just made our entire program dependent on them is the heights of stupidity.
But we don't have ToT of F404 & F414 yet, right?
So our access to western tech has turned out to be deception in span of 25 years.
> ISRO, DRDO, etc have done well so far with our economy.
> GoI/Mod said funding not issue,many reforms coming.
> DRDO has made RAM, RAS, means they can make front RF blocker.
> ISRO has high temp materials obviously. DRDO needs to develop high temp RF blocker for exhaust.
> They're working on TVC but round nozzle as per their slide, like in F-35. They need to develop flat or say hexagonal nozzle.
Engineers are not afraid of rework/redesign, structural or other kind of tweaking, troubleshooting, that's their daily job & quite interesting actually for those who like their job. Engineering is solving the constraints, complains.
Has anybody visited steel plant, big metal factories? In emergency, just for a TD, some cutting, welding can be done & looking at numerous jets designed globally since 1950, it won't affect the aerodynamics to such an extent like a dead end & ofcourse CFD, wind tunnel tests, Mainframe 7 Supercomputing, AI/ML, etc are there to assist as part of SOP.