How did F404 and F414 ever get approved for procurement?

[batman]

No country would even do MKI and Brahmos deals, but Russia and India did it and it was win win for both. Then Russia's economy recovered and oil price increased, so they became cocky and started messing with us.
But after 4.5 years of war, they are economically exhausted. Less than 100 orders for their 5th gen, no orders at all for Mig35, no progress on Su75, they are just exporting some flanker variants, thats all. Russian aerospace industry will shrink significantly if they don't get orders soon. India has been bearing the brunt of corrupt Trump.
Now its time for both countries to come together again and sign deals that will define the next 25 years, like MKI and Brahmos did previously.

Yeah but there is a world of difference between tot for a missile or aircraft versus the la cream of the crop of military industrial complex, we don't even have full technology transfer for some of the core components of Brahmos and still depend on Russia to get the finalised missile, same with the Su-30MKI, what makes you think any sane country would do the same for the most critical tech of Turbofan Engine, would you expect India to do 100% ToT for some tech which we and only a handful of nation posses, especially one rising to a global power?

French have the Mesma AIP which is steam engine based. It is noisy and may be obsolete for today's sonars. This AIP is also operational on Pakistan's Agosta 90B submarines. The Chinese Yuan class submarine which has been exported to Pakistan uses Stirling engine based AIP which is somewhat quieter. What DRDO is developing is fuel cell based AIP which has no moving parts and hence will be quietest of all.

Thanks for the information, appreciate it.

 

[Barcid]

Yeah but there is a world of difference between tot for a missile or aircraft versus the la cream of the crop of military industrial complex, we don't even have full technology transfer for some of the core components of Brahmos and still depend on Russia to get the finalised missile, same with the Su-30MKI, what makes you think any sane country would do the same for the most critical tech of Turbofan Engine, would you expect India to do 100% ToT for some tech which we and only a handful of nation posses, especially one rising to a global power?

Thanks for the information, appreciate it.

Russia has already offered higher level of TOT than we get from any other country. AFAIK we are building MKI engines from raw materials, so a similar deal for Su57 engines should be possible.

And Russian situation is bad. F35 has 40-50x the orders of Su57. Now even Turkey is selling off the S400 just to get its hands on the F35. Russians tried to pitch Su75 to Vietnam but that hasn't worked. Other big nations are planning their own aircrafts, so that closes any export potential for Russia. If Russians want their aerospace industry to continue, these are the kind of choices they will need to make. Total confirmed orders for Su57 are only 76. As per some people on this forum, India is planning 140 of them. So India will be order double of what Russia has ordered for its own airforce.

 

[batman]

Russia has already offered higher level of TOT than we get from any other country. AFAIK we are building MKI engines from raw materials, so a similar deal for Su57 engines should be possible.

And Russian situation is bad. F35 has 40-50x the orders of Su57. Now even Turkey is selling off the S400 just to get its hands on the F35. Russians tried to pitch Su75 to Vietnam but that hasn't worked. Other big nations are planning their own aircrafts, so that closes any export potential for Russia. If Russians want their aerospace industry to continue, these are the kind of choices they will need to make. Total confirmed orders for Su57 are only 76. As per some people on this forum, India is planning 140 of them. So India will be order double of what Russia has ordered for its own airforce.

Russia will order a lot more once the final engine is ready, the current production is to primarily make sure none of the supply chains or factories close down when they want to mass produce the finalised Jet, hence why they are not focused on mass production right now.

 

[Barcid]

Russia will order a lot more once the final engine is ready, the current production is to primarily make sure none of the supply chains or factories close down when they want to mass produce the finalised Jet, hence why they are not focused on mass production right now.

By the time that happens, US and China would have introduced 6th Gen fighters. Problem is that Russia is already 20 years behind due to cold war drubbing, and with a way smaller R&D budget, there is no way they can catchup.

 

[Amer Mahajane]

Russia will order a lot more once the final engine is ready, the current production is to primarily make sure none of the supply chains or factories close down when they want to mass produce the finalised Jet, hence why they are not focused on mass production right now.

By the time that happens, US would have introduced 6th Gen fighters. Problem is that Russia is already 20 years behind due to cold war drubbing, and with a way smaller R&D budget, there is no way they can catchup.

They have fallen behind Chinese and not only they're behind West and Chinese, they are broke. Looking to others to finance their projects. The sanctions and lack of progress in electronics have hurt them. Cold war was won by electronics in defence. The future is AI mixed electronics. Russia is going to lag even further behind. Only numbers are not going to win a war. This is not the WW2.

If we don't surpass Russia in the next 2 decades, we'll see bad days from the belligerent Chinese. We need to suck the technology from Russia if we truly have a strategic relationship with them.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

They have fallen behind Chinese and not only they're behind West and Chinese, they are broke. Looking to others to finance their projects. The sanctions and lack of progress in electronics have hurt them. Cold war was won by electronics in defence. The future is AI mixed electronics. Russia is going to lag even further behind. Only numbers are not going to win a war. This is not the WW2.

If we don't surpass Russia in the next 2 decades, we'll see bad days from the belligerent Chinese. We need to suck the technology from Russia if we truly have a strategic relationship with them.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991,

in terms of tanks:Russia's Uralvagonzavod developed Object 195 (2000), the T-90S/A (2006), and the T-14 (2014); the Omsk plant developed the T-80UM2 Black Eagle (1999); Chelyabinsk developed the 2S25 Sprut-SD destroyer (2014).
Meanwhile, Britain's most advanced Challenger 2 entered service back in 1994;
Japan's Type 10 is from 2008;
South Korea's K2 from 2007 was still just a kit-bashed assembly job;
and Italy's Ariete C2 from 2002 hasn't even been deployed yet.
India's Arjun Mk2 is from 2012.

As for China, the Type 99 was produced in '98, the VT4 in 2011, and the VT5 in 2014.

All the other garbage and trash from France, Germany, and the US are even older antiques—not to mention other land warfare weapons, from the smallest pistol to the largest tank, no matter how you compare them.


In terms of transport aircraft:The Il-76 series has seen over 900 units produced and is still in rapid production.On the other hand,
that piece of trash C-17 had its production line shut down long ago.As for production volume, the C-17, C-5, and C-141 combined can't even match half the production volume of the Il-76.
And as for America's 'sixth-generation' aircraft—didn't your American 'daddy' previously claim that the F-22 equals the 4th generation? How did it suddenly jump to the sixth generation? I don't get it.

The gap is even wider when it comes to nuclear submarines, missiles,
and nuclear weapons; the Russian military's iteration speed is several times faster than that of Western countries, including China.
You have the Trident II from the '80s,
the Ohio-class from the '70s,
and the Minuteman III and B-52 from the '60s.
The Apache lags far behind the Mi-28 and Ka-52.The Black Hawk lags far behind the Mi-17.
The S-500 is already out, while you are still stuck on the Patriot PAC-3.
The Nimitz-class is from the '70s, am I right?
In terms of nuclear submarines, the Russians have developed the Borei-class, Project 09852 (carrying 6 Poseidons), Project 10831 (with a 6,000-meter diving depth), and the Yasen-M—more newly developed models than the rest of the world combined.
The Arleigh Burke-class is still using a PESA radar from 800 years ago: the SPY-1.
My point is, the US and the West should first close the hypersonic weapons gap with North Korea before trying to compare themselves to Russia.

Look at the timeline: the 'Topol-M' in 1997, the 'Sineva' in 2007 (deployed on Delta IV nuclear subs), the 'Yars' in 2009, the 'Bulava' in 2013 (deployed on Borei-class nuclear subs), the 'Layner' in 2014 (deployed on Delta IV nuclear subs), the 'Avangard' in 2018, the latest 'Sarmat', and the 'Oreshnik' that suddenly popped out of nowhere. During this exact same period, the only new thing the entire Western world managed to put into service was France's pathetic M51 in 2010.

This includes tactical missiles like the 'Zircon', the 'Kinzhal' (carried by the MiG-31), the 'Iskander', and so on. What are the corresponding Western products? The Harpoon from the '70s?

It's always good to use Google more often.Your American 'daddy's' AI has achieved decisive success against Houthi suicide speedboats, ISIS AKs, and Iranian Shahab missile showers—hell, Trump alone has 'ended the war' nearly 40 times.But hey, you can always try cursing the Russians to death with your spells.

Talking about electronic technology is even more of a joke. From the Su-33 all the way to the Su-57, they use American processors across the board. Western electronics have made a monumental contribution to the development of the Russian military industry—even General Kim Jong Un uses them and gives them a thumbs-up.

And you better believe Iranian missiles are packed with the exact same stuff. Heh. You can go to an electronics market in Fujian, buy a whole gunny sack of these components by the kilogram, and it’d be enough to build Su-57s for the next 10 years. There are zero barriers to their circulation, and it’s hardly some big secret. If you can get your hands on it, so can they. Besides, just the other day, the Russians' own 28nm lithography machine finally rolled off the line.

Oh, right, do you honestly think our Chinese AI (the one you mentioned) isn't running on American chips? Or do you seriously believe that Americans want to sell chips to China, or that the US even has the actual capacity to control the flow of its own chips?

How about they manage their own Coca-Cola first—get them to actually pull out of the Russian market before they start bragging. The US government can't even control a few American businessmen selling sugary water and hamburgers, yet they expect to control American chips? It's pure fairy-tale nonsense.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

By the time that happens, US and China would have introduced 6th Gen fighters. Problem is that Russia is already 20 years behind due to cold war drubbing, and with a way smaller R&D budget, there is no way they can catchup.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.
The only time anyone ever bothers to bring China into the conversation as an example or to make up the numbers is when they desperately need to trash Russia.
It's truly sickening

The Chinese Communist Party certainly doesn't consider it any sort of achievement for the Chinese defense industry that they spend more money than everyone else, only to churn out weapons that are 800 times more garbage than Russia's. That is exactly why they are currently purging the top brass of the military-industrial enterprises.
A Russian general's salary isn't even enough to match what an American staff sergeant makes.
The reality on the ground is that the cost of a single J-16 is about five times higher than that of the Su-35 sold to us by the Russians. Of course, compared to your American 'daddy,' that's just small potatoes.

Furthermore, those garbage submarines that the French pigs originally planned to sell to Australia were just conventional power, with a 4,500-ton displacement, yet they cost a staggering 2.92 billion USD.
To make matters worse, this piece-of-trash submarine was nothing more than a PPT presentation submarine anyway. The French haven't built a conventional submarine in 800 years
By contrast, a 13,000-ton Yasen-M class nuclear submarine costs 47 billion rubles, which translates to about 630 million USD... barely matching the spare change of France's garbage conventional submarine.
When calculated as cost-per-ton, the French conventional submarine is over 14.4 times more expensive per ton than the Russian nuclear submarine. I honestly thought you French guys were selling gold instead of submarines.
Coincidentally, at around the same tonnage, the US has a similar piece of work: the DDG-1000. A 14,000-ton thing that can neither dive nor run on nuclear power, and its radar was only half-installed compared to the original design (missing the SPY-6). It costs 4.4 billion USD, which is 10 times the price of an 885M.

You are completely reversing cause and effect, bragging about budget-wasting and corruption as if they were actually virtues. Since when did inefficiency and corruption become something to be proud of?

Why don't you first go ask the Iranian military, ISIS, and the Afghan Taliban—who beat your American 'daddy' so hard they were left groveling on the floor—just how much their defense budgets actually were?

 

[batman]

By the time that happens, US and China would have introduced 6th Gen fighters. Problem is that Russia is already 20 years behind due to cold war drubbing, and with a way smaller R&D budget, there is no way they can catchup.

20 years behind who exactly? Certainly not behind china by any margins and they are ahead of most Europeans power easily. So if US is the standard, then most countries are behind, least of Russia being concerned, not to mention american 5th gen are outdated or overweight, overpriced tin cans unlike Russian 5th gen. Also, what's the currently developed revolutionary 6th gen tech anywhere deployed except being a vapourware which is distinct from 5th gen tech and the AL-51 engine will easily be available for mass production before these 6th gen even becomes operational.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991,

in terms of tanks:Russia's Uralvagonzavod developed Object 195 (2000), the T-90S/A (2006), and the T-14 (2014); the Omsk plant developed the T-80UM2 Black Eagle (1999); Chelyabinsk developed the 2S25 Sprut-SD destroyer (2014).
Meanwhile, Britain's most advanced Challenger 2 entered service back in 1994;
Japan's Type 10 is from 2008;
South Korea's K2 from 2007 was still just a kit-bashed assembly job;
and Italy's Ariete C2 from 2002 hasn't even been deployed yet.
India's Arjun Mk2 is from 2012.

As for China, the Type 99 was produced in '98, the VT4 in 2011, and the VT5 in 2014.

All the other garbage and trash from France, Germany, and the US are even older antiques—not to mention other land warfare weapons, from the smallest pistol to the largest tank, no matter how you compare them.


In terms of transport aircraft:The Il-76 series has seen over 900 units produced and is still in rapid production.On the other hand,
that piece of trash C-17 had its production line shut down long ago.As for production volume, the C-17, C-5, and C-141 combined can't even match half the production volume of the Il-76.
And as for America's 'sixth-generation' aircraft—didn't your American 'daddy' previously claim that the F-22 equals the 4th generation? How did it suddenly jump to the sixth generation? I don't get it.

The gap is even wider when it comes to nuclear submarines, missiles,
and nuclear weapons; the Russian military's iteration speed is several times faster than that of Western countries, including China.
You have the Trident II from the '80s,
the Ohio-class from the '70s,
and the Minuteman III and B-52 from the '60s.
The Apache lags far behind the Mi-28 and Ka-52.The Black Hawk lags far behind the Mi-17.
The S-500 is already out, while you are still stuck on the Patriot PAC-3.
The Nimitz-class is from the '70s, am I right?
In terms of nuclear submarines, the Russians have developed the Borei-class, Project 09852 (carrying 6 Poseidons), Project 10831 (with a 6,000-meter diving depth), and the Yasen-M—more newly developed models than the rest of the world combined.
The Arleigh Burke-class is still using a PESA radar from 800 years ago: the SPY-1.
My point is, the US and the West should first close the hypersonic weapons gap with North Korea before trying to compare themselves to Russia.

Look at the timeline: the 'Topol-M' in 1997, the 'Sineva' in 2007 (deployed on Delta IV nuclear subs), the 'Yars' in 2009, the 'Bulava' in 2013 (deployed on Borei-class nuclear subs), the 'Layner' in 2014 (deployed on Delta IV nuclear subs), the 'Avangard' in 2018, the latest 'Sarmat', and the 'Oreshnik' that suddenly popped out of nowhere. During this exact same period, the only new thing the entire Western world managed to put into service was France's pathetic M51 in 2010.

This includes tactical missiles like the 'Zircon', the 'Kinzhal' (carried by the MiG-31), the 'Iskander', and so on. What are the corresponding Western products? The Harpoon from the '70s?

It's always good to use Google more often.Your American 'daddy's' AI has achieved decisive success against Houthi suicide speedboats, ISIS AKs, and Iranian Shahab missile showers—hell, Trump alone has 'ended the war' nearly 40 times.But hey, you can always try cursing the Russians to death with your spells.

Talking about electronic technology is even more of a joke. From the Su-33 all the way to the Su-57, they use American processors across the board. Western electronics have made a monumental contribution to the development of the Russian military industry—even General Kim Jong Un uses them and gives them a thumbs-up.

And you better believe Iranian missiles are packed with the exact same stuff. Heh. You can go to an electronics market in Fujian, buy a whole gunny sack of these components by the kilogram, and it’d be enough to build Su-57s for the next 10 years. There are zero barriers to their circulation, and it’s hardly some big secret. If you can get your hands on it, so can they. Besides, just the other day, the Russians' own 28nm lithography machine finally rolled off the line.

Oh, right, do you honestly think our Chinese AI (the one you mentioned) isn't running on American chips? Or do you seriously believe that Americans want to sell chips to China, or that the US even has the actual capacity to control the flow of its own chips?

How about they manage their own Coca-Cola first—get them to actually pull out of the Russian market before they start bragging. The US government can't even control a few American businessmen selling sugary water and hamburgers, yet they expect to control American chips? It's pure fairy-tale nonsense.

Thanks for taking the time to debunk these low effort normie takes.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

20 years behind who exactly? Certainly not behind china by any margins and they are ahead of most Europeans power easily. So if US is the standard, then most countries are behind, least of Russia being concerned, not to mention american 5th gen are outdated or overweight, overpriced tin cans unlike Russian 5th gen. Also, what's the currently developed revolutionary 6th gen tech anywhere deployed except being a vapourware which is distinct from 5th gen tech and the AL-51 engine will easily be available for mass production before these 6th gen even becomes operational.

Thanks for taking the time to debunk these low effort normie takes.

The very people who serve as the 'fortune'himslaf have actually started bragging about how much of a 'fortune' their bosses spent on luxury yachts.
This kind of logic is truly mind-boggling.
If output were always proportional to input, there wouldn't be a single poor person left in the world. Those at the absolute bottom of society—the manual laborers—sacrifice far more than the average person.

 

[batman]

The very people paying the 'price' have actually started bragging about how much money their bosses spent on luxury yachts.
This kind of logic is truly mind-boggling.
If effort and cost were actually directly proportional to the reward, there wouldn't be a single poor person left in the world. The people at the absolute bottom of society—those manual laborers—pay a far heavier price than the average person

what would you suggest the Government of India do?

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

20 years behind who exactly? Certainly not behind china by any margins and they are ahead of most Europeans power easily. So if US is the standard, then most countries are behind, least of Russia being concerned, not to mention american 5th gen are outdated or overweight, overpriced tin cans unlike Russian 5th gen. Also, what's the currently developed revolutionary 6th gen tech anywhere deployed except being a vapourware which is distinct from 5th gen tech and the AL-51 engine will easily be available for mass production before these 6th gen even becomes operational.

Thanks for taking the time to debunk these low effort normie takes.

The most classic joke is America's hypersonic weapons. Back in the day, they were the very first to make PPT presentations about them, pumping countless billions of dollars into the program. As a result, let alone Russia coming out ahead, even North Korea and Iran now have hundreds of them, while the Yanks' piece-of-junk tech is still stuck somewhere in another dimension.
For anti-ship, they're still relying on the Harpoon.
For land-attacks, the Tomahawk really doesn't cut it anymore.
So they actually resorted to hyping up the HIMARS. They hyped it for two straight years, and now they can't even keep that hype train moving anymore
Last year, they started hyping up the B-2A flying overhead to drop bombs again—oh wait, my bad, the 'super bunker busters.'
The blondie Trump got a taste of success orchestrating subversion in Venezuela, sending his confidence through the roof. He thought Iran would instantly bow down to America’s might just the same.
And what happened？
Honestly, it would have been fine if they just stuck to what the Western mainstream media proclaimed last year—that the B-2 had already destroyed Iran's underground nuclear facilities. Or at least, you could have just kept that lie going; nobody really cares anyway, and maybe those gullible citizens would have actually bought it.
But who would have thought? There was a sequel waiting for us this year.
It turns out Iran's entire underground missile farm network is running flawlessly.
That B-2A SUPER bomb drop of what? It accomplished absolutely nothing.

 

[Hyperactive ADD]

what would you suggest the Government of India do?

China's aviation industry is only one step ahead of India's by having a bootleg F110 engine (which incorporates the low-pressure section of the AL-31F). All those messy, intimidating toys of theirs—like the tailless aircraft—are merely based on the fact that they 'can fly,' but from a design and directional standpoint, they are completely wrong (referring to the so-called 6th-generation fighters).
What India actually needs to do is directly purchase the production lines for either the AL-31F or the PS-90. They need to fully master the core engine technology, and use that as a foundation to breed their own aircraft.
Building airplanes is a simple matter; even Iran and Turkey can do it. It is engine technology that remains the obstacle you simply cannot bypass

 

[Barcid]

not to mention american 5th gen are outdated or overweight, overpriced tin cans unlike Russian 5th gen.

Hmm, ok.

 

[batman]

China's aviation industry is only one step ahead of India's by having a bootleg F110 engine (which incorporates the low-pressure section of the AL-31F). All those messy, intimidating toys of theirs—like the tailless aircraft—are merely based on the fact that they 'can fly,' but from a design and directional standpoint, they are completely wrong (referring to the so-called 6th-generation fighters).
What India actually needs to do is directly purchase the production lines for either the AL-31F or the PS-90. They need to fully master the core engine technology, and use that as a foundation to breed their own aircraft.
Building airplanes is a simple matter; even Iran and Turkey can do it. It is engine technology that remains the obstacle you simply cannot bypass

Yeah, we need to master the core section of turbo fan engine and a government willing to spend enough money to create a family of engines based on it for different requirements. I suggest we also go with hiring overseas expert, like we did with Kurk Tank to built Asia's first indigenous fighter jet even though we lacked the experience, infrastructure or ecosystem to built one when the project started. It was designed to go mach 2 but never got the intended engine. I would hope our prime minster directly takes over the engine project and deeply invest in it and have control over project.

 

[jetray]

20 years behind who exactly? Certainly not behind china by any margins and they are ahead of most Europeans power easily. So if US is the standard, then most countries are behind, least of Russia being concerned, not to mention american 5th gen are outdated or overweight, overpriced tin cans unlike Russian 5th gen. Also, what's the currently developed revolutionary 6th gen tech anywhere deployed except being a vapourware which is distinct from 5th gen tech and the AL-51 engine will easily be available for mass production before these 6th gen even becomes operational.

Hard truth is that we will simply never match the west in tech, west is simply not one country europe + US + japan+ korea ..etc combined have more R&D power and this alliance enables them to cut cost, cut time & research more tech.
Instead of hankering over all the wonder tech & getting bankrupt by trying to get the latest stuff we need to focus on using quantity to make up for the shortfall.

Ukraine & iran war has shown that nothing can replace the boots on the ground for power projection. We should be ok with one generation behind but be self reliant.

 

[jetray]

Back in the day, they were the very first to make PPT presentations about them, pumping countless billions of dollars into the program.

fact is that , US needs to sell more weapons to make up for the investment. Their F35 is a good example unless they churn out more and sell it to unsuspecting customers it will create a huge drag on budget. Worst is that most of the arab cntries who bought their weapons now realize that their performance to cost is not that great.

 

[jetray]

Yeah, we need to master the core section of turbo fan engine and a government willing to spend enough money to create a family of engines based on it for different requirements. I suggest we also go with hiring overseas expert, like we did with Kurk Tank to built Asia's first indigenous fighter jet even though we lacked the experience, infrastructure or ecosystem to built one when the project started. It was designed to go mach 2 but never got the intended engine. I would hope our prime minster directly takes over the engine project and deeply invest in it and have control over project.

we need continuous investment in R&D, these one of projects even if they succeed are not sustainable in the long run. Better to build a private ecosytem and then market decide the course. Only problem is that we dont have the luxury of time.

 

[batman]

Hard truth is that we will simply never match the west in tech, west is simply not one country europe + US + japan+ korea ..etc combined have more R&D power and this alliance enables them to cut cost, cut time & research more tech.
Instead of hankering over all the wonder tech & getting bankrupt by trying to get the latest stuff we need to focus on using quantity to make up for the shortfall.

Japan and Korea is not the west and Russia doesn't rely on the west to be ahead of most western countries technologically. Not to mention, what is stopping us from doing R&D with Russia, Japan etc which would enable us to cut cost, time and get more tech? If we have to capability to do so, we could surely do so. However partnership should be mutually beneficial, we either need to provide enough capital, expertise or value for it to happen

Ukraine & iran war has shown that nothing can replace the boots on the ground for power projection. We should be ok with one generation behind but be self reliant.

We can acquire current capabilities as stopgap while also building our indigenous alternatives.

we need continuous investment in R&D, these one of projects even if they succeed are not sustainable in the long run. Better to build a private ecosytem and then market decide the course. Only problem is that we dont have the luxury of time.

It is sustainable, the aero industry has a lot of untapped potential in India not to mention we don't have any private players with necessary experience or expertise to replace government organisations.