Now we have a proper source from UK about this news.
Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Now we have a proper source from UK about this news.
RFP No. AIR HQ/82841/2/ENGA7(TECH) BM-I (PC1) DT JUL 26
SDR integration on MiG-29 ac 36 Aircraft (29 Fighter and 7 Trainer)
Project duration: 18 months
SDR integration on MiG-29 ac 36 Aircraft (29 Fighter and 7 Trainer)
Project duration: 18 months
Was trying to read up on this and surprised to learn:
- ~$2.3B did not cover everything -- if you include the cost of Micas and mating Spice, the cost balloons to more than ~$3.9B
- Apparently there was a counter offer from Israel to do it at half the cost! Which would have allowed enough room in the budget for additional upgrades -- for eg: support for all the Israeli PGMs, ALBMs, ALCMs (spice, griffin, rampage, rocks, delilah, etc.)
How kind of the French to give India a discount.
The upgrades were to be done in 2021, so initial plan was to fly M2K till 2041 !!
I am at a complete loss for words. Was no one investigated for corruption or plain incompetence?
Bwahahahaha
This just keeps getting better.
Mirages are Still very useful
For Both Long Range Precision strikes and BAR CAPs
And they were used in the recent conflict with the Barbarians of the West
For Both Long Range Precision strikes and BAR CAPs
And they were used in the recent conflict with the Barbarians of the West
That may well be true. But did the IAF/MOD spend the money on the upgrade wisely? What is the lost opportunity cost of rejecting the Israeli offer? Why was the IAF confident this will remain a front line fighter into the 2040s only to have to pull in Rafales into that role for the 2030s? Why was the IAF/MoD so confident of the MICA purchase to spend over a Billion dollars, only to turn out to largely be a non-factor? What lessons can be learnt from this debacle?
I hope there is a CAG report on this at some time given the fortune spent on it... will be very illuminating.
Is there a repeat of this saga for the almost similar amount ~$1.7B to be spent for the upgrades of the previous 36 Rafales to F4 standards?
More importantly, given that the F4->F5 is not priced into the steep purchase cost of the 114 Rafales, what safeguards should be part of the contract? Are the F5 MLU upgrades priced in at some discount? Are Indian CCAs (Ghatak, long-serious-funding-overdue CATS, Abhimanyu etc.) and weapons priced in for future independent upgrades by India? What are the terms for the upgrade to be done not by Dassault, but by HAL or the Indian private sector -- are there guarantees that France will not reject air worthiness certification, etc. given past experience?
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Israel offer was never a serious one. A third party cant just come in and upgrade a modern fighter without access to mission computer and its interfaces. Israel operated Mirage 5 and the kit was based on it. Which is of a different generation. The offer was absurd, don't go by the sponsored articles; some of us lived through it. You would have made the same accusations of corruption and incompetence if they had chosen that path.How kind of the French to give India a discount.
The upgrades were to be done in 2021, so initial plan was to fly M2K till 2041 !!
I am at a complete loss for words. Was no one investigated for corruption or plain incompetence?
Bwahahahaha
This just keeps getting better.
Not upgrading was never an option because of delays with LCA and MMRCA. The french always quoted high because they can. The high price is also because of the screwdrivergiri by HAL. Their craftsmanship resulted in years of delay and a crash with two pilots killed.
The IAF has opted for cheaper third-party upgrades over OEM packages wherever it made sense (as in the case of Mi-24/35s in the early 2000s).
The Israelis had extensive experience modifying Mirage family ac, having developed the Kfir C1/C2 upg for their own Mirage-3/5s (with a new US engine to boot)
I suspect we signed up with DA for M2000 upg to keep the RC-400 radar + MICA BVR out of Pakistani hands. Plus French govt pressure would've also played a part as it would've voided warranties and certification.
Edit: the timelines of the IAF and PAF offers do match.
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But didn't India pay additional money anyway to add its own MC afterwards for the Spice bombs? Couldn't DA engagement be limited to just the Indian MC interfacing?
I suspect part of it is to collect France's UNSC veto as a back up to the Russian one. But the last statement is concerning, particularly keeping Rafale on the Indian "network" as India's MIC grows from strength to strength. I get the sense IAF will be made to pay through the nose for each of the additional ISEs required in the next decade on Rafales.
Good to know this has been gotten rid off:
I dont know where you got this idea. It uses Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) by Dassault. You pay them for each integration. There is no indian MC.
Involving HAL was unnecessary given the small number of airframes. Should have followed the Mig-29UPG model.
This is the HAL MC to handle the Indian (and by extension I assume Israeli) weapons:
Shown interfacing with the MDPU:
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We'd have run into spares/servicing problems had we gone in for the Israeli kit which was essentially a grey market upgrade. This would've in turn affected the availability of the IAFs premier strike fighter + n delivery vector. A chance the IAF just couldn't afford to take.
As for the Rafale deal, it all depends on the T&C mentioned in the contract. It's a given that the core avionics (radar, ew) will always be French origin but elements like weapons/comms/datalinks could be modifiable via ICDs.
It's not clear whether this was priced in the Israeli plan. But it was also not in the original $2.4B upgrade plan per above article.
Ah, now that adds up. The cost probably included some Indian nuc integration touch points that they can't publicly acknowledge from both sides.
BTW, was there any confirmation that HAL finished the upgrades? Seems there were again engine parts supply issues, Covid disruptions, crash inquiry, etc.
No official confirmation, afaik. But I doubt Spice family munitions could've been integrated without the FOC std upgrades (HAL MC) having been completed.
Besides, I haven't seen any birds with the older livery (black radome) lately. The last few M2000H suffered tech glitches during Balakot which prevented live impact imagery from getting captured (via Crystal Maze), shutting down demands for 'proof' from the media and opposition.
Imo, completing the upg would've been a priority for them.