Delhi Class & Rajput Class Destroyers : Discussions

Parthu

Parthu

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Indian Navy destroyer INS Delhi receives extensive combat systems makeover during MLU
Kerry Herschelman, London - Jane's Navy International

The Indian Navy’s Project 15 destroyer INS Delhi is receiving a major combat system upgrade as part of its ongoing mid-life upgrade (MLU).

Imagery analysis suggests Delhi had entered its MLU cycle at Naval Dockyard Mumbai by May 2017 and work is currently ongoing.

Under the destroyer’s MLU programme, a significant portion of legacy Russian-origin combat systems are being replaced by indigenously sourced kit, in addition to other ship system and habitability upgrades.

The KH 35E Uran anti-ship missile system, including the Garpun-Bal missile targeting radar, is being replaced by the Brahmos missile system and an unspecified surface surveillance radar (SSR).

Indian Navy destroyer INS Delhi receives extensive combat systems makeover during MLU | Jane's 360

Delhiclass.PNG

Had no clue the Delhi-class MLU was already underway.

@randomradio @Ashwin @Abingdonboy @Aashish @vstol Jockey @Milspec @Hellfire @Arvind @GuardianRED

Thanks to @Amal for the find !
 
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Ashwin said:
Yes, Delhi class and first three of Talwar class got MLU clearance from DAC two years ago. Both are getting Shtil SAM upgraded to VL system.
Click to expand...

Somehow I had no inkling of these goings-on.

Anyway I think 9M317ME (the VLS version) is a mediocre upgrade. A deeper upgrade that incorporates MF-STAR, Barak-8 and the CMS from P-15A/B would have totally transformed the Delhis and made them almost an equal of Kolkata/Vizag as far as network-centric warfighting and Anti-Air capability goes.

Is there any radar upgrade to these ships?
 
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Parthu said:
Anyway I think 9M317ME (the VLS version) is a mediocre upgrade. A deeper upgrade that incorporates MF-STAR, Barak-8 and the CMS from P-15A/B would have totally transformed the Delhis and made them almost an equal of Kolkata/Vizag as far as network-centric warfighting and Anti-Air capability goes
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Barak-8 MF-STAR combo is an expensive option. Adding it to a 20-year-old ship doesn't make much sense when same systems are on order for new ships. Upgrades should be incremental. Shtil is a good enough system for the next 10 years. USN still uses upgraded SM-2 on Arleigh Burkes.

Navy Quietly Downscales Destroyer Upgrades

DZ96uAaWkAAlWyk.jpg
 
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Ashwin said:
Barak-8 MF-STAR combo is an expensive option. Adding it to a 20-year-old ship doesn't make much sense when same systems are on order for new ships. Upgrades should be incremental. Shtil is a good enough system for the next 10 years. USN still uses upgraded SM-2 on Arleigh Burkes.

Navy Quietly Downscales Destroyer Upgrades

DZ96uAaWkAAlWyk.jpg
Click to expand...

The problem in our case is unless we replace all the Russian radars & missiles, the Delhi-class will not be able to function as a part of IN's networked MFSTAR-equipped combatants. Arleigh Burkes don't have this problem. There will be cooperative engagement capability between ships equipped with the MFSTAR+B8 combo (any ship in networked fleet can see any target that any other ship sees and can engage any target that any other ship sees).

But the Delhi-class, three huge nearly 7000-ton combatants, the last of which was commissioned only in 2001, will be left out of this equation. They will be unable to work together coherently with IN's newest (and upcoming) main surface combatants.

Look at what RAN did with their Anzac-class frigates.

FFH-152-Warramunga-photo-021.jpg


New radar on old ship providing a quantum boost to capabilities.

Is incorporating MFSTAR+B8 on Delhi MLU expensive? Sure. But essentially we're getting three DDGs with capabilities roughly equaling that of Kolkata, at just the price of paying for the radar, SAM & CMS only.
 
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Parthu said:
The problem in our case is unless we replace all the Russian radars & missiles, the Delhi-class will not be able to function as a part of IN's networked MFSTAR-equipped combatants. Arleigh Burkes don't have this problem. There will be cooperative engagement capability between ships equipped with the MFSTAR+B8 combo (any ship in networked fleet can see any target that any other ship sees and can engage any target that any other ship sees).

But the Delhi-class, three huge nearly 7000-ton combatants, the last of which was commissioned only in 2001, will be left out of this equation. They will be unable to work together coherently with IN's newest (and upcoming) main surface combatants.

Look at what RAN did with their Anzac-class frigates.

FFH-152-Warramunga-photo-021.jpg


New radar on old ship providing a quantum boost to capabilities.

Is incorporating MFSTAR+B8 on Delhi MLU expensive? Sure. But essentially we're getting three DDGs with capabilities roughly equaling that of Kolkata, at just the price of paying for the radar, SAM & CMS only.
Click to expand...
Agreed!

1) Yes did read abt the Shtil system upgrade to VLS BUT didn't read abt the inking nor that INS Delhi was already at dock and upgrade progressing - excellent find @Amal

2) The suggestion of the MFSTAR upgrade im very sure we had discussed this in our previous forum! and from that - a deep upgrade and installation is possible!!! . Wish they did this !? ... guess this is cost affective and quicker turnaround.

3) Since from the article we do know that indigenous systems will be installed - what is not said is - "what specific systems". Is it possible this systems will allow it to receive all data from the MF STARs network?
 
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GuardianRED said:
3) Since from the article we do know that indigenous systems will be installed - what is not said is - "what specific systems". Is it possible this systems will allow it to receive all data from the MF STARs network?
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I believe indigenous systems would mean some of the equipment on the bridge, some electro-optic/electronic countermeasures etc.

Transfer of data from one IN ship to the other is possible - but that's just not the same as being able to interlink the radars & combat managements systems on both warships to allow them to function as a coherent unit, especially when working as part of task forces and/or carrier battle groups.

We can form such a cohesive network among P-15A, P-15B, P-17A and IAC-1. But not among the P-15 (Delhi), Krivak/Grigorovich (Talwar) and P-17 (Shivalik). I hope at least the Shivalik-class will receive MFSTAR+B8 combo on its MLU, whenever that may happen.

That said, the Delhi will indeed be getting a massive boost in capabilities with this MLU, although not to the level I personally might want it to. BrahMos SSM is a generation leap over the Kh-35E, which was equivalent of early model Harpoons (it wasn't called Harpoonski for no reason). And the VLS Shtil-1 system grants the Delhi class the ability to engage multiple air targets simultaneously with salvo-firing of multiple SAMs. With the arm-launcher, the Delhi could only fire 2 SAM rounds at a time (one from fore launcher, one from aft).

Which leads me to ask a question...

@vstol Jockey @Ashwin

Delhi originally had two launchers with two 24-round magazines for the Shtil...So will we only get a single 24 or 32-cell VLS arrangement at the fore or will there be 2 x VLS farms one in front and one in back? With removal of the aft launcher & below-deck magazine we get a whole lot of space there as well. I would like it if we get 2 x 24-cell or 2 x 32-cell farms for a total of 48 or 64 rounds.

We have 32 Barak-1 PDMS rounds anyway (Delhi & Mysore have the Barak-1 but Mumbai doesn't), so that would make for a total of 80 or 96 VLS ready-to-fire SAMs that way.
 
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Parthu said:
I believe indigenous systems would mean some of the equipment on the bridge, some electro-optic/electronic countermeasures etc.

Transfer of data from one IN ship to the other is possible - but that's just not the same as being able to interlink the radars & combat managements systems on both warships to allow them to function as a coherent unit, especially when working as part of task forces and/or carrier battle groups.

We can form such a cohesive network among P-15A, P-15B, P-17A and IAC-1. But not among the P-15 (Delhi), Krivak/Grigorovich (Talwar) and P-17 (Shivalik). I hope at least the Shivalik-class will receive MFSTAR+B8 combo on its MLU, whenever that may happen.

That said, the Delhi will indeed be getting a massive boost in capabilities with this MLU, although not to the level I personally might want it to. BrahMos SSM is a generation leap over the Kh-35E, which was equivalent of early model Harpoons (it wasn't called Harpoonski for no reason). And the VLS Shtil-1 system grants the Delhi class the ability to engage multiple air targets simultaneously with salvo-firing of multiple SAMs. With the arm-launcher, the Delhi could only fire 2 SAM rounds at a time (one from fore launcher, one from aft).

Which leads me to ask a question...

@vstol Jockey @Ashwin

Delhi originally had two launchers with two 24-round magazines for the Shtil...So will we only get a single 24 or 32-cell VLS arrangement at the fore or will there be 2 x VLS farms one in front and one in back? With removal of the aft launcher & below-deck magazine we get a whole lot of space there as well. I would like it if we get 2 x 24-cell or 2 x 32-cell farms for a total of 48 or 64 rounds.

We have 32 Barak-1 PDMS rounds anyway (Delhi & Mysore have the Barak-1 but Mumbai doesn't), so that would make for a total of 80 or 96 VLS ready-to-fire SAMs that way.
Click to expand...

That is an excellent observation - what will happen to the aft launcher!!
Could be possible - a UVLS - ie to have LACM (Nirbhay) or addition Brahmos ?
 
GuardianRED said:
That is an excellent observation - what will happen to the aft launcher!!
Could be possible - a UVLS - ie to have LACM (Nirbhay) or addition Brahmos ?
Click to expand...

VLS BrahMos is a possibility. Not sure about Nirbhay though...the ship-based and air-launched versions aren't even tested yet and IN is not the type to spend money today on VLS for a missile that won't see service till post-2020. If it was, we would have seen 48-64 Barak VLS on Kolkata and Vizag from the get-go.

Bon Plan said:
The russian SM2 / SM6 ?
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Nah...more like the Russian Aster-15.

EDIT: More like the Russian ESSM Sea Sparrow.

Land-based versions of these missiles are part of the Buk SAM system.

1024px-9M38M1_9M317.svg.png


^^ Earlier we had the 2nd type, now upgrading to the 3rd type (VLS) with modified fins & body.
 
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Parthu said:
The problem in our case is unless we replace all the Russian radars & missiles, the Delhi-class will not be able to function as a part of IN's networked MFSTAR-equipped combatants. Arleigh Burkes don't have this problem. There will be cooperative engagement capability between ships equipped with the MFSTAR+B8 combo (any ship in networked fleet can see any target that any other ship sees and can engage any target that any other ship sees).
Click to expand...
I don't understand whats stopping them to be part of IN fleet. They all have same datalink. What is the obsession with removing russian system ? (That too on basically russian design).

West-indian-East everything is sourced from multiple places and you want to see and engage targets from multiple platforms? How about a common VLS for missiles as a start? :cautious:

Parthu said:
But the Delhi-class, three huge nearly 7000-ton combatants, the last of which was commissioned only in 2001, will be left out of this equation. They will be unable to work together coherently with IN's newest (and upcoming) main surface combatants.
Click to expand...
Did you just overlook the entire fleet of Talwar-class of frigates ? We are ordering 4 more. The last one will go to refit in 2021 so same 20-year-old ship which will get good enough weapon and sensor suite for next 10 years.

By your logic IN will have to redo major part of the main fleet (10 Talwar + 3 Delhi) by replacing sensors, weapons,CMS etc just to be relevant?
 
Ashwin said:
I don't understand whats stopping them to be part of IN fleet. They all have same datalink.
Click to expand...

They can interact with other IN/IAF assets. But that's not the same as having common Combat-Management System.

Picture two AEGIS-equipped combatants able to function as a coherent group, all eyes, all ears. USN Carrier Strike Group is centered around this cohesion.

Now picture a Oliver H Perry-class frigate with SPS-49 radar thrown into the mix. Can it communicate with other ships in fleet? Yes. But can it cooperatively engage targets? Nope.

Delhi-class (and Talwar frigates) are like that OHP. P-15A, P-15B, and P-17A are like the AEGIS ships.

What is the obsession with removing russian system ?
Click to expand...

Just that we have much better options available.

(That too on basically russian design).
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It was still basically Russian design when we removed 2 of 4 AK-630Ms and installed Israeli Barak-1 PDMS in their place.

It's about which system delivers better capability.

West-indian-East everything is sourced from multiple places and you want to see and engage targets from multiple platforms?
Click to expand...

What's wrong in wanting that? It's not some castles-in-the-air technology, this is tech we already have on P-15A (and will have on all future Indian-built surface combatants as well).

P-15A is also an amalgamation of Western-Israeli-Russian-Indian tech. If that's not stopping it from having CEC abilities, why should it stop Delhi?

The only real reason why Delhi is not getting MFSTAR+B8 setup is probably cost factor. Doesn't make any sense otherwise.

How about a common VLS for missiles as a start? :cautious:
Click to expand...

Why? You already have this networked engagement capability on P-15A.

Does P-15A have common VLS for SSMs and SAMs?

Did you just overlook the entire fleet of Talwar-class of frigates ?
Click to expand...

Nothing we can do about those. India holds all designs for Delhi class so we can modify it as we want.

Buying Russian frigates when we had capability to build superior frigates at home is a mistake. And we continue to perpetuate that mistake with these additional 4 Admiral Grigorovich FFGs.

Same goes for carrier. INS Vikramaditya was a mistake - simply not worth the money. Two ships of Vikrant-class would have been so much better. If the price for that was for IN to go some years without any carrier, then so be it. Would've been worth it in the end.

But enough of hindsight. Bottom line is - we can't do anything about Talwars. But we can about Delhi and Shivalik.

By your logic IN will have to redo major part of the main fleet (10 Talwar + 3 Delhi) by replacing sensors, weapons,CMS etc just to be relevant?
Click to expand...

Not to be relevant - but to be able to achieve their maximum potential.
 
Parthu said:
Yes, but as far as Rajput-class is concerned, each ship has a pretty different armaments fit.

However, I reckon all 5 ships will eventually get inclined BrahMos. It just won't happen all at the same time.
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Rajput class is one amazing design of ships. It has seven flooding zones below the water line and even if five of them are flooded due to battle damage, the ship will not sink.
 
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Ashwin said:
Did they replace SS-N-2D Styx with inclined Brahmos?
@Parthu @GuardianRED

India's L&T develops inclined launcher for BrahMos cruise missile | Jane's 360

Drzz5mZU8AAy6-8.jpg

INS Rana last month

View attachment 3875
INS Ranvir during INDRA ex
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Good Catch

We do know that the Rajput Class is been used for missile testing for the Brahmos , ie for the inclined - INS Rajput and VLS - INS Ranir, INS Ranvijay - which is now become part of their weapon system

From your post, we do NOW know that INS Rana and possible INS Ranjit isn't part of that program ( Possible reason being that these hulls are part of the Dhanush program) hence - haven't yet being upgraded to launch Brahmos

Really wish that the IN have some sort of Standardization among the different hulls - and Now even within Class of ship there isn't standardization among them too :( .

Another example is INS Mumbai not having the Barak 1 System on board while INS Delhi and INS Mysore has them.
 
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I have served on INS SindhuDurg and INS Gomati. I am have very good knowledge of the missiles on board these ships. The P-20 missiles were outstanding but the ship needed to be steered within the battle arc by autopilot and the roll and pitch limits needed to be within the launch parameters. Even if the CO pressed the button for launch after engaging autopilot, the missile would leave only when the roll and pitch limits were met. AND it was a very loaded wait because if the missile had misfired, we were in real deep trouble.
 
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