We are buying these ships because the first two have progressed a lot in construction and can be delivered very quickly.
Talwar-class Frigates : Discussions
- Thread starter Nick
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We are buying these ships because the first two have progressed a lot in construction and can be delivered very quickly.
So when are the first 2 going to be delivered & why are the remaining 2 with a lead time as long as 6-7 years with 2 years required from date to commence manufacturing?
The Russian ships will be delivered in 2022 and 2023.
The first two years is for non-production work, getting supplies, finalising contracts with vendors etc, then each ship needs 5 years to build and 1 year to test. However these two ships won't be ready until 2030 considering the delays when it comes to DPSUs. This contract should have gone to L&T, at least they have the potential to stick to the schedule.
These ships were turning into junk due to engines from Ukraine which were not supplied due to embargo by them for Crimia. Russians had already installed engines for these two ships but were not in a position to operate them. A tripartite deal was done in which India will buy them and Ukraine will supply engines for all four ships. Once again Russians have managed to arm twist us in selling us their Junk.
Yes. Once done, we will have a third shipyard capable of building such classes of ships.
Why are these ships "junk"?
The Russians do not have engines for these 2 ships anyway, the engine delivery was blocked.
Also, even with the 4 ships, we are still short of 1 ship to get to the sanctioned frigate strength of 24, and it's logical that the sanctioned strength will further increase in order to push the navy to a 200-ship navy over the next decade.
Exactly. For a while now it has been clear India is propping up Russian MIC- FGFA, MKI, T90, Talwar etc etc
I fear I don’t want to know why, these are scandals of epic proportions.
5 years to make a 4,000 ton frigate? Absurd.
MDL and GRSE are making more advanced 7,000 ton frigates in the same time.
When they are delivered in 2026-7 they will already be outdated
Ship hulls get rusted over a period of time. The hulls of these ships were created six years back so what we are getting are hulls with reduced life. Pls do not teach me about ships. I am a Watch keeping certificate holder from Indian Navy and also the topper of Western command as a Midshipman and also adjudged best Junior officer of western command in 1991.
That's pretty normal.
So?
How do you define outdated? These ships will pretty much have the same firepower technology as the upgraded Delhi class.
Both ships we bought were laid down in 2013. And we will get them in 2022 and 23. That's 9 and 10 years. No different from the amount of time the Shivalik class took.
By that time (mid to late 2020s), Delhi class would be close to decommissioning.
The first IN Talwar was commissioned 2003. Save for the VLS Shtil, rest of the ship is basically the same. So by 2026-2027, we'd be commissioning frontline combatants that are at the same technological level as the ships we commissioned ~25 years ago by that time.
That is a damn shame.
That is equivalent to commissioning a Godavari or Brahmaputra-class frigate in 2018.
We might be getting the 9M317ME on this Shtil VLS compared to the 9K37M1-2 we currently operate.
No, the Delhi class will be decommissioned only in the early 2040s. The life of the ship is 40 years, and can be extended even further. Look at the Rajput class, still going strong after 40 years. So the ship will be operating the same kit as the new Talwars even in 2035.
The only tangible difference between the upgraded Delhi/Talwars and the Visakhapatnam/P-17A is the SAMs, pretty much every other weapons system is in the same class. And even when it comes to SAMs, the overall effectiveness is the same since both SAMs can stop subsonic and supersonic missiles.
Which is even sadder.
We also operated a carrier originally commissioned in 1959 till 2016 (~60 years), that doesn't mean it is wise to do so (or even worth it), we just do it because we are desperate for options.
A ship is more than its weapon systems. Even if you somehow mate Barak-8 with the Fregat-M2 surveillance radar & MR-90 Orekh fire control radar system, it'll be nowhere as effective as a Barak guided by MF-STAR. A modern Arleigh Burke or Type-45 has Harpoons same as the Oliver H. Perry of 70s. That doesn't mean they are equally effective or that it's okay to commission a OHP in 2018.
If that were true P-17A wouldn't move to Barak-8, they'd retain the same Shtil that P-17 had (except maybe in VLS setup).
'Overall effectiveness' of something fire controlled by this:
Is not the same as a missile that is a full generation newer and controlled by this:
I don't know how you think the Orekh illuminators paired with an upgraded Buk (base model from late 70s) is an acceptable solution for a brand new frontline warship to be commissioned in mid to late 2020s. Russians already stopped using these in 2018 (Admiral Gorshkov-class is the standard for Russian frigates now, with APAR multifunction radars), the only usage was on Grigorovich which were originally meant for the relative low-threat environment of Black Sea Fleet's area while the Gorshkov was to be frontline, having access to Atlantic.
Either way you look at it, Batch-3 Talwar in 2026-27 makes zero sense unless you want to train hundreds of new sailors to put on sub-standard combatants that can't really work together with IN's frontline combatants and/or carrier groups (all with MFSTAR+Barak-8) in a true network-centric environment with cooperative engagement. They'll be sailing out there kinda on their own like outcasts, at most sharing a datalink with other IN ships. Like how ships used to work in the Cold War.
I don't see us stepping into the future with these ships at all.
This deal is either us getting ripped off...OR...we're giving this deal to Russians because we want an avenue of payment to use as cover for something else we're getting from them.
@vstol Jockey Your thoughts?
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