Doesn't IACCS/AFNET use CISCO routers? Besides we signed CISMOA with them to get classified comms gear for US origin aircraft and helos. They have access to more of our data than you think.
Indian AESA Radar Developments
- Thread starter ni8mare
- Start date
Speaking of the OTH radar bit, wonder what progress have happened on what the LRDE scientist explained in speech last year.
Sh Nandakumar S, Scientist F, LRDE, DRDO, gave an insight into ‘the OTH Radar for Peninsular & Chinese Front: a Perspective.’ Considering that OTH Radars operate at high frequencies, he emphasised their value. He compared the two Over Horizon (OTH) Radars, such as the Surface Wave OTH (SW OTH) and the Sky Wave OTH (SKW OTH). He emphasised the examination of OTH Radar, specifically highlighting various countries such as Iran, the United Kingdom, the United States, Romania, and Israel and the respective radar systems they possess. He presented an analysis of a separate survey pertaining to the Skywave Over-The-Horizon (OTH) Radar, specifically focusing on the United States. He emphasised the various sub-systems of the SkW OTH Radar, including transmitters, receivers, and Tx Antennas, as well as the techniques and technologies employed within these sub-systems. According to the research conducted by Sh Nandakumar S, developing a Skywave Over-the-Horizon Radar (SkW OTHR) for specifically identified locations is feasible. He emphasised the development of Ionosphere modelling is imperative for SkW OTHR. He proposed that the implementation of the Frequency Management System should be completed within a time-frame of approximately five years. He discussed the advancement of the Surface Wave Over-the-Horizon Radar (OTHR) for the Indian Navy, specifically in the Gujarat Peninsula, which is nearing completion. It is anticipated that the radar system will become operational within a year. Additionally, Nandakumar highlighted the forthcoming development of the Two-L shape (180* Coverage) SkW OTHR for Sea/Air Surveillance, which is expected to be completed within a time-frame of 5-7 years. This technological advancement is anticipated to provide the Indian Armed Forces with enhanced capabilities to assess the Chinese front.
Sh Nandakumar S, Scientist F, LRDE, DRDO, gave an insight into ‘the OTH Radar for Peninsular & Chinese Front: a Perspective.’ Considering that OTH Radars operate at high frequencies, he emphasised their value. He compared the two Over Horizon (OTH) Radars, such as the Surface Wave OTH (SW OTH) and the Sky Wave OTH (SKW OTH). He emphasised the examination of OTH Radar, specifically highlighting various countries such as Iran, the United Kingdom, the United States, Romania, and Israel and the respective radar systems they possess. He presented an analysis of a separate survey pertaining to the Skywave Over-The-Horizon (OTH) Radar, specifically focusing on the United States. He emphasised the various sub-systems of the SkW OTH Radar, including transmitters, receivers, and Tx Antennas, as well as the techniques and technologies employed within these sub-systems. According to the research conducted by Sh Nandakumar S, developing a Skywave Over-the-Horizon Radar (SkW OTHR) for specifically identified locations is feasible. He emphasised the development of Ionosphere modelling is imperative for SkW OTHR. He proposed that the implementation of the Frequency Management System should be completed within a time-frame of approximately five years. He discussed the advancement of the Surface Wave Over-the-Horizon Radar (OTHR) for the Indian Navy, specifically in the Gujarat Peninsula, which is nearing completion. It is anticipated that the radar system will become operational within a year. Additionally, Nandakumar highlighted the forthcoming development of the Two-L shape (180* Coverage) SkW OTHR for Sea/Air Surveillance, which is expected to be completed within a time-frame of 5-7 years. This technological advancement is anticipated to provide the Indian Armed Forces with enhanced capabilities to assess the Chinese front.
There was some talk of eventually migrating to Tejas networks servers. This was when TATA had bought up that company. Let's see if anything materializes. IIT-M has recently completed design of RISC-V based server grade chips. We still need to fabricate the chips abroad.
If you don't have a certain capability, you either buy from abroad or forgo that capability altogether. We don't live in a neighborhood where we can afford to forgo capabilities.
Yes, get classified gear from the US so you understand what gear they use, how they use it & why. The goal is to eventually make your own. Those agreements weren't signed so we can off load this entire capability segment to the Americans.
This is also why the S400 was purchased. Not so we could be depended on the Russians for long range AD capability. If we bought some Russian EW systems to study their capability that would be great.
Yes & the obvious solution to that problem is to buy more American gear. Especially in segments where we have our own capability.
We have to buy from abroad to plug capability gaps while we try to build domestic capability. Importing stuff in segments where we have developed domestic capability is an act of self-harm. If arms deal needs to be made with the US for political purposes, buy tactical stuff.
All I'm saying is that we need adequate firewalls to keep sensitive data out of foriegn hands when using 'interoperability' tools like CENTRIX, or air traffic control and maritime domain awareness (IMAC Gurgaon) software while building our own equivalents.
If the US won't share their signature libraries etc, India’s shouldn't be open for them to access either. We apparently managed to put some India specific (sovereignty) clauses in CISMOA but you can't trust the US to play by its own rules.
Personally, I think we may have jumped the gun on S400 just as MRSAM was coming online. It's performance in the Ukraine War surely doesn't justify the $5b+ price tag imo, (esp. given the maintenance and support issues that typically affect Russian tech)
Unlike SoKo that has extensively used Ru tech to rapidly build out their SAM portfolio, we've done so almost entirely indigenously. Between Akash and BMD, DRDO's pretty well versed in LR-SAM design and ops. I doubt S400 would have added anything to that knowledge base.
With a strategic deployment strategy, MRSAM would have sufficed until Kusha materialized in a few years time.
Anyways, we're now beyond the point of no return on both.
S400 deal was a day light robbery. Funny part is the people who crying over ge engine delivery delay baselessly blaming US are mum over the delay from russian side.
No fan of GE but at least they are not known to sneakily hike prices claiming additional scope of work like some Russian firms (Sevmash/Gorshov).
Last edited:
Don't believe in Western propaganda too much. If S-400 is termed as a 'game-changer' by IAF, then it is.
Plus, S-400 won't work alone but part of our IADS network which is becoming formidable by the day.
Vorhenz is for early warning.......it can't provide accurate track or firing solution since it's a VHF radar..... UHF version can provide to some extent but we already have Israeli radar in that frequency which in all likely is much more advance than the Russian version.... What wee need is something like SBX radar on land & in bay of Bengal & Arabian Sea as a FCR...... Probably going to need new ABM as well with new much more powerful boosters like the one used by Russians to reduce the response time.
Ask IAF about Mig21,Jaguar etc. U will get to know what is actual propognda is.
We've mainly purchased 40N6 LR SAMs. As a rule of thumb, SAM performance significantly drops at max range, esp. against maneuvering targets.
S400s main USP was that it gave us a psychological edge over Pak. The narrative was that Pak F16s would be shot down as soon as they took from Sargodha, etc. Post Ukraine that's gone.
Some X handles are saying Almaz Antei officials were visiting to finalize ToT and maintenance agreements for our S400s.
Let's wait for confirmation from Shishir Gupta, Hemant Rout or some other credible reporter on the Voronezh story.
Let's wait for confirmation from Shishir Gupta, Hemant Rout or some other credible reporter on the Voronezh story.
India plans to sign a contract with Russia to purchase an advanced early warning radar system for missile attacks, the Voronezh-M. This was reported by the Indian TV channel India Today. According to it, negotiations on the deal were held with the participation of representatives of the Indian Ministry of Defense and the Russian concern Almaz-Antey, which produces the radar. According to the data, at least 60% of the Voronezh radar is planned to be produced in India, the contract amount is about 4 billion dollars. The Voronezh-M radar is planned to be installed in the city of Chitradurga, Karnataka state. This is a strategically important area, where important facilities of the Indian defense and aerospace industry are already operating. Radar stations of the Russian early warning system of the Voronezh type began to be used in 2006, they are capable of detecting targets at a distance of up to 8,000 km. So far, only Russia, China and the United States have radar systems with a range of more than 5,000 km in their arsenals.
That and the fact that we can benchmark our future LRSAM against world's best. Same thing is happening with Rafale. All its secrets are now getting benchmarked and exceeded in all our future/MLUed jets. Bodes quite well for us, me thinks.
The IAF is hedging against falling fighter numbers with the acquisition of S-400 which is understandable. But benchmarking can be done by defence attaches posted abroad when they attend trials, trade expos and briefings, etc. In any case, I don't recall S-400 ever undergoing trials in India before we signed for it. If the IAF made the decision based solely on tests in Russia (performance data may have been unverifiable/exaggerated), this might turn out to be an expensive mistake.
ATACMS, Storm Shadow are just the kind of threats S-400 is supposed to be effective against and look at the impunity with which Ukraine has been hitting targets deep inside the Russian heartland. It leads me to question the whole thing.
Again, how can we say with confidence that S-400 has failed against ATACMS & Storm Shadows? Even Patriorts haven't been able to stop Russian Kinzhals, Zircons and Iskanders. So can we consider them failed as well?
Actually, S-400 has proved itself against the best Western weapons and it bodes quite well for us. If there are some loopholes in its performance, then Russians will fix that and all that shall be applied to our version as well.
No amount of sending defence attache can tell you about real performance of any weapons system. Having S-400 in our fold is the only way to check its real performance. Recently IAF tested S-400 against its best assets and S-400 killed 80% of its targets and forced rest 20% to retreat(we're talking about advance jets like MKI, Rafale, M-2000MLU etc.). That's a far telling number then all that 'Slava Ukraine' crap that guys like @BMD have been propagating.
TL&DR: We should trust our forces rather than outside propaganda.
I agree no AD system can possibly have a 100% intercept rate but I'd consider Russian-operated S-400s as the gold standard. By their own admission, they don't export those full-spec systems abroad (because of MTCR and other considerations). If they're failing, where does that leave us?
There are exceptions though. For example, Iranian S-300s have had the living daylights knocked out of them by Israel AF jets recently. The Iranians claimed 'only' their radars had been destroyed but who knows what else they lost.
That's part of the due diligence that needs to be performed before a contract is signed. Which again brings me to be point about S-400 trials in India.
I do but you can't dismiss all Western media reporting as propaganda.
But are they failing and as per whom?
F-35 launching missiles way outside Iranian AD bubble doesn't show them(the latter) in any bad light, IMO.
IAF definitely properly evaluated S-400 before ordering it. They chose it over American AD, remember. And so far, the live exercises they have done has proven them right regarding Triumf's capabilities.
I concur! Truth always lies in-between two extremes. So at times, S-400 did a stellar job and at times, it wasn't so effective. That's how real war works though. Even F-117 was shot down by ancient Soviet AD in Serbia, rememember? We can't extrapolate that stealth is useless because of that.
IAF needs to assess Russo-Ukraine war and S-400's performance, then tune/tweak it further against future/new-threats.
You are weighing simulation results by IAF over the actual combat results from Ukrain. Can i ask you a thing, are you on Russian payroll?
Off the top of my head, Igor Girkin, a Russian commander, had criticized the performance of their air defences in intercepting GMLRS attacks early on in the war. More recently, major bases like Engels have been attacked, likely covered by multiple S400.
Can't say for sure but the Israel AF would have either used ALCM (Delilah?) or short range ALBM (LORA/Rampage), both of which S300 should have been capable of handling.
Frankly, American AD for the IAF was a non-starter. The fact that we chose MF-STAR/Barak-8 over Aegis in the 2000s makes it clear. In any case, we already have AAD which is a PAC-3 equivalent, more or less. THAAD is mid-tier BMD.
But government put mr star in negative list , it means will not import it
But the government has put MF Star in the negative list, so we cannot import it.