ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bon Plan]

It's currently cheaper than Rafale, both purchase and maintenance.

Impossible to predict ! Su57 is not on squad yet, and there is too small numbers to have the begining of a real feed back from operations.

And the russian products are known to be cheap to purchase but expensive to maintain (and with a low servicability).

 

[randomradio]

Not really people I know in the IAF have agreed to these concerns and they were circulated in media too by IAF veterans long before India finally walked out.

The Russians will do whatever you want as long as you pay for it.

FGFA is supposed to be a new derivative design compared to Su-57, but using the same technologies.

By that logic using rafale in place of su57 also doesn't matter because rafale with 2 bvr + 2 wvr + 2 bombs will still be under 3-4 m2 while su57 with internal payload will still be 0 .5 to 1 m2 . Not even 10 times difference. Perhaps that's why IAF walked out fgfa .

Su-57's RCS is much, much lower than that. In fact, Rafale's standard RCS with weapons is the same as the figure you gave for Su-57. And Su-57's RCS is even lower than that.

It's a national strategic program. We are investing billions into it. It may not be perfect but it can't be abandoned . Like j said before it will overcome shortcoming by evolving in batches. It's already two batch program there can be more if needed.

IAF will abandon it in a heartbeat. Requirements are supreme. If AMCA doesn't match up, it will replace Jaguars and they will end the program after that.

Going back to su57 means abandoning all vendors of AMCA and putting domestic industry decades back . Not gonna happen . Your views are too simplistic .they are not accounting politics or economic or domestic supply chains.

The same vendors can be roped in to make Su-57.

A heavy bigger jet will need more maintenance. One of Russian origin even more. That's just common sense.

You didn't get it. Su-57 may require more maintenance than AMCA, but due to the Russian exchange rate, the Su-57 is a lot cheaper to buy and maintain.

They later bought su30 mkk which Russian developed using mki program progress.

Su-30MKK has nothing to do with Su-30MKI. Both are two different designs. Only the designations are similar.

Again saying no doesn't change the fact that despite buying su30 IAF still went for more mirages which resulted in mmrca competition in the first place .

You do not understand. IAF wanted both Su-30 and Mirage 2000, but they prioritised Su-30 over M2000 even if the Su-30 was more expensive. So your argument that cost is important is irrelevant in comparison to capability. If India was richer, we would have bought both at the same time. These are two different aircraft fulfilling two different roles.

How do you even know about it's maintenance costs when only 1 is series produced and that too crashed . Not to mention it's much bigger than rafale.

'Cause the Russian economy is sunk. A Su-35 today costs $25m.

Again that is what we have experienced till date with most of Russian products we have buyed . nothing you say will change that .

No. All you have done is read western and lobbyist propaganda articles.

Exactly. So why would we buy fgfa just because it's coming in cheap. There are a whole lot of other factors and not much in favor of fgfa .

Now you're comparing Mig-35 to FGFA? Lol.

 

[randomradio]

design of aircraft has been changed so I think that specifications that u r taking are of older one.

Yeah, it's for the older one.

 

[randomradio]

Impossible to predict ! Su57 is not on squad yet, and there is too small numbers to have the begining of a real feed back from operations.

And the russian products are known to be cheap to purchase but expensive to maintain (and with a low servicability).

Not much difference. The Russian MoD signed a deal with the UAC for 76 PAK FAs at $36M each. Can't see any western company being able to do the same.

 

[Desi Lover]

AMCA has one of the lowest internal payload at just 1.5tons. MSA will have 2.75ton as internal loadout due to its three internal bays. The main bay can carry 2x2000lbs bombs and side bays can take 4xmeteor. The gun ammo of 150x30mm is not included.

Any updates on MSA?

 

[Desi Lover]

I already said it.

Compared to the F-22, the F-35 is crap. Compared to the F-35, the F-22 is crap. I wonder how many can explain this.

If you can explain this, then things will get easier. You will actually understand what I'm trying to say.

Vstol had no issues with what I said, he understood where the problem is. It's you guys who don't get it even after explaining. It just means you lack the foundation to understand how this drawback impacts a mission.

What Random dude is saying is that technologically, AMCA will put us on par with rest of the world whereas payload wise the aircraft will leave IAF wanting more in 2030s +, due to which it will want to import FGFA/PAKFA. As India's economy grows, its interests will also grow across the world. To safe guard these interests, we will need platforms that have better range and payload. If the AMCA were designed from the beginning to carry more payload, IAF will not need to buy PAKFA/others in future. Very simple. Don't understand why people are getting confused.

However, I hope that what Anonymous expects is correct, i.e the design has been modified to accommodate a larger payload and this has been kept secret.

 

[randomradio]

Any updates on MSA?

Mum's the word.

What Random dude is saying is that technologically, AMCA will put us on par with rest of the world whereas payload wise the aircraft will leave IAF wanting more in 2030s +, due to which it will want to import FGFA/PAKFA.

The difference is as much as 300 imports + 150 AMCA or 0-60 imports + 400 AMCA. Just that one feature will make this much of a difference.

 

[Indianhawk]

The Russians will do whatever you want as long as you pay for it.

FGFA is supposed to be a new derivative design compared to Su-57, but using the same technologies.

Yes it will be a derivative . That's why it will be delayed even more. Su57 isn't going to be ready by 2025 with item 30 as it is. Then building and testing fgfa will take 4-5 more years . There goes timing .

Su-57's RCS is much, much lower than that. In fact, Rafale's standard RCS with weapons is the same as the figure you gave for Su-57. And Su-57's RCS is even lower than that.

By your logic unless it's 1000 times less than rafale it doesn't matter! Or have you changed the logic to suit the argument?

IAF will abandon it in a heartbeat. Requirements are supreme. If AMCA doesn't match up, it will replace Jaguars and they will end the program after that.

No. Not gonna happen.

Su-30MKK has nothing to do with Su-30MKI. Both are two different designs. Only the designations are similar

Point is sukhoi used money India paid to develop systems which went into derivatives sold to our enemies. Fgfa will repeat it. We will pay Russia billions only for them so sell something just like fgfa to china later.

but they prioritised Su-30 over M2000 even if the Su-30 was more expensive.

No su30 was cheaper mirage was expensive at that time . Even them IAF had no choice . There was no competition . Goi straight out bailed out Russia .
IAF still wanted mirage though which it never got. Now it wants 200 rafale which it isn't getting either.

Tommorow it may want 200fgfa or 200 fcas it won't get them either not in these numbers anyway !

See the pattern ? It's not only upto IAF. Mod has to pay for it and mod will have to take domestic development in consideration.

BTW IAF didn't wanted mk1a either pariker forced them to accept mk1a untill mk2 arrives.

Goi can and will force IAF to chose Desi fighter over imports .

The same vendors can be roped in to make Su-57.

No . They will all need retooling .What happens to all the infra they build for AMCA ? How will there investment be recovered if AMCA no. Are limited.

Mark my word ! Just like lca has evolving already into mwf and tedbf . AMCA will evolve into new designs with continuous production over next decades.

You didn't get it. Su-57 may require more maintenance than AMCA, but due to the Russian exchange rate, the Su-57 is a lot cheaper to buy and maintain.

Yet we have to pay in forex. And warfare is a time sensitive matter in case you haven't noticed. The longer the aircraft in maintenance bay the less is your available strength.

Cause the Russian economy is sunk. A Su-35 today costs $25m.

That's still 25 million too many going out of India while they can be invested into domestic industry.

Same goes with maintenance why pay to Russian experts when In case of AMCA you are paying Indians only.

No. All you have done is read western and lobbyist propaganda articles.

No.

Now you're comparing Mig-35 to FGFA? Lol.

No.

Not much difference. The Russian MoD signed a deal with the UAC for 76 PAK FAs at $36M each. Can't see any western company being able to do the same.

Su30 is also much cheaper but when we build it in India we pay much more . Russian fleece us left and right .

Cag reports are filled with russian delays . Russian have delayed tech transfer. They also delay raw material . Mig29k has structural issue which Russian can't solve.

Stop being so naive. It may be cheap for Russia it won't be cheap for us.

Or you think cag reports are also western propaganda.

 

[Indianhawk]

Mum's the word.



The difference is as much as 300 imports + 150 AMCA or 0-60 imports + 400 AMCA. Just that one feature will make this much of a difference.

Coming back to original issue of IAF sabotaging amca. This one issue of swing role capability is what IAF has forced ADA to not add?
But every literature out there about amca including speeches by ADA/drdo talk about swing role capability. Perhaps they know better at what they are doing ?

 

[Sathya]

When Su 35 is costing 25 Million$
Why are we buying frigate , that too which is lying idle without engines for a billion $ ?

That means we are spending 4 billion $ in reality ?

 

[Indianhawk]

When Su 35 is costing 25 Million$
Why are we buying frigate , that too which is lying idle without engines for a billion $ ?

That means we are spending 4 billion $ in reality ?

Also the helicopter deal for kamov 226 seems too damn costly . Somehow we are not getting anything cheap even when ruble is almost on par with rupee now.

 

[randomradio]

Yes it will be a derivative . That's why it will be delayed even more. Su57 isn't going to be ready by 2025 with item 30 as it is. Then building and testing fgfa will take 4-5 more years . There goes timing .



By your logic unless it's 1000 times less than rafale it doesn't matter! Or have you changed the logic to suit the argument?


No. Not gonna happen.


Point is sukhoi used money India paid to develop systems which went into derivatives sold to our enemies. Fgfa will repeat it. We will pay Russia billions only for them so sell something just like fgfa to china later.


No su30 was cheaper mirage was expensive at that time . Even them IAF had no choice . There was no competition . Goi straight out bailed out Russia .
IAF still wanted mirage though which it never got. Now it wants 200 rafale which it isn't getting either.

Tommorow it may want 200fgfa or 200 fcas it won't get them either not in these numbers anyway !

See the pattern ? It's not only upto IAF. Mod has to pay for it and mod will have to take domestic development in consideration.

BTW IAF didn't wanted mk1a either pariker forced them to accept mk1a untill mk2 arrives.

Goi can and will force IAF to chose Desi fighter over imports .


No . They will all need retooling .What happens to all the infra they build for AMCA ? How will there investment be recovered if AMCA no. Are limited.

Mark my word ! Just like lca has evolving already into mwf and tedbf . AMCA will evolve into new designs with continuous production over next decades.


Yet we have to pay in forex. And warfare is a time sensitive matter in case you haven't noticed. The longer the aircraft in maintenance bay the less is your available strength.

That's still 25 million too many going out of India while they can be invested into domestic industry.

Same goes with maintenance why pay to Russian experts when In case of AMCA you are paying Indians only.

No.

No.


Su30 is also much cheaper but when we build it in India we pay much more . Russian fleece us left and right .

Cag reports are filled with russian delays . Russian have delayed tech transfer. They also delay raw material . Mig29k has structural issue which Russian can't solve.

Stop being so naive. It may be cheap for Russia it won't be cheap for us.

Or you think cag reports are also western propaganda.

Cheers, mate. Done with it.

Coming back to original issue of IAF sabotaging amca. This one issue of swing role capability is what IAF has forced ADA to not add?
But every literature out there about amca including speeches by ADA/drdo talk about swing role capability. Perhaps they know better at what they are doing ?

Swing role without weapons?

Cheers.

 

[randomradio]

When Su 35 is costing 25 Million$
Why are we buying frigate , that too which is lying idle without engines for a billion $ ?

That means we are spending 4 billion $ in reality ?

That's the problem. We are just using the old rates, when we bought the initial set of 6 Talwars. The same with MKIs, any new MKIs we buy will be at the old rates. Same with the old Mig-29s. The Russians are making a massive profit on MKIs, Talwars, T-90s and even the Akula class lease. If brand new deals are signed, negotiated from scratch, the costs will decrease dramatically. If we go for anything that's brand new, it's gonna be a whole lot cheaper.

But from their perspective, they lose out on a lot of dollars. So it's not necessary they will sell the Su-35 at $25M to anybody, but it's not going to be as expensive as $45M either. The old FGFA deal would have been very expensive in comaprison to the $36M cost the RuAF is paying for it, since we signed up back when the Russian ruble was very strong.

 

[Indianhawk]

Cheers, mate. Done with it.


Swing role without weapons?

Cheers.

That's the point if they are claiming swing role ability they may have a plan to implement it . It will be quite a scandal for IAF and ADA to come up with a advanced jet after spending 2-3 billion usd to not have swing role capacity. I don't believe either IAF or ADA designers are that stupid.

Anyway like you said done with it . Cheers.

 

[randomradio]

That's the point if they are claiming swing role ability they may have a plan to implement it . It will be quite a scandal for IAF and ADA to come up with a advanced jet after spending 2-3 billion usd to not have swing role capacity. I don't believe either IAF or ADA designers are that stupid.

Anyway like you said done with it . Cheers.

If they introduce side bays, then great. If they don't introduce side bays, then it's only a Jaguar replacement and they will introduce only piecemeal numbers and be done with it. This has nothing to do with being stupid.

 

[Indianhawk]

If they introduce side bays, then great. If they don't introduce side bays, then it's only a Jaguar replacement and they will introduce only piecemeal numbers and be done with it. This has nothing to do with being stupid.

There are no side bays as of now and yet they are claiming swingrole capability . Both these things are fact. So either they have a path to enable swing role without side bays or they are being ridiculously stupid with claims of swing role capability. That's the logical conclusion.

 

[randomradio]

There are no side bays as of now and yet they are claiming swingrole capability . Both these things are fact. So either they have a path to enable swing role without side bays or they are being ridiculously stupid with claims of swing role capability. That's the logical conclusion.

Even IOC version of LCA Mk1 has swingrole capability.

AMCA can easily carry missiles externally and claim swingrole. AMCA cannot be stealth and swingrole at the same time, that's the difference.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

 

[Indianhawk]

Even IOC version of LCA Mk1 has swingrole capability.

AMCA can easily carry missiles externally and claim swingrole. AMCA cannot be stealth and swingrole at the same time, that's the difference.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Because at that level we are not playing word games. Who are they fooling with such childish tricks mod , goi , cag ? Who ? IAF is the end user ADA is the designer they both understand that's either it needs to be swing role in stealth mode or they will need more jets to do the job and IAF is already low on strength.
And given our procurement process no guarantee when we will be able to import another jet in 20 years or 30 like mmrca. Why would IAF take such an unnecessary risk ?

 

[Sathya]

That's the problem. We are just using the old rates, when we bought the initial set of 6 Talwars. The same with MKIs, any new MKIs we buy will be at the old rates. Same with the old Mig-29s. The Russians are making a massive profit on MKIs, Talwars, T-90s and even the Akula class lease. If brand new deals are signed, negotiated from scratch, the costs will decrease dramatically. If we go for anything that's brand new, it's gonna be a whole lot cheaper.

But from their perspective, they lose out on a lot of dollars. So it's not necessary they will sell the Su-35 at $25M to anybody, but it's not going to be as expensive as $45M either. The old FGFA deal would have been very expensive in comaprison to the $36M cost the RuAF is paying for it, since we signed up back when the Russian ruble was very strong.

Aren't we going to deal in rupee - ruble to avoid CAATSA?

 

[randomradio]

Aren't we going to deal in rupee - ruble to avoid CAATSA?

The price is negotiated in dollars, and then the converted amount is transacted. This is only for defence.

Anyway this gives India an even greater advantage since we can buy Russian equipment in rupees.