Arent they already "successful"? Flighttested in Russia though with lesser power.
Arent they already "successful"? Flighttested in Russia though with lesser power.
Sulur is an air base and will be the home base for the LCA program.
IAF has decided to get some presence in South India. Bangalore already has Yelahanka AFS. IAF will get Sulur AFS and Thanjavur AFS operational in a few years.
The engines work. Now we need to get them tested on a fighter aircraft. So we will need to test it on a Mig-29 or similar TE jet, followed by LCA. Or, if we decide the engine is good enough, we can directly switch to LCA. It's risky, but it can be done.
Then it has to go through ground trials, flight trials and certification before it starts production. This process may very well take 5 years. If it all goes well, we may see it on the Mk1A.
That's not the point. Thanjavir AFB already houses SU-30 MKI's and had Jags before it was pulled for upgrades. Sulur is the new base, but with large area space planned for testing as it is going to induct LCA and the future plan is to induct all new aircrafts through Sulur with infrastructure being built.
The AMCA programme talks about testing, building and integration at Coimbatore. Means setting up of infrastructure might costs some 2000 crores. The question is ADA was using HAL's set up for testing before. Why they need to duplicate resources? Or ADA wants to set up its own test labs? Coimbatore is more an industrial city and it has many defence companies there. But CBE was mentioned today by Saurav Jha and it is also present in ADA timelines for AMCA.
There's no real estate left in HAL. The last bit was taken over by the LCA and solar energy.
How can the Govt of India clear the AMCA project unless LCA Mk 2 is successfully completed
Right now ADA is focussed on MK 1 A ; there is not much news about MK 2 and
still people dream about AMCA
Right now ADA is focussed on MK 1 A ; there is not much news about MK 2 and
still people dream about AMCA
AMCA will get clearance around the time Mk1 is nearing completion. Mk2 is still quite sometime away. Mk2 prototypes are being produced, so they will have to wait for that to have progressed quite a bit.
Hopefully, this time next year, ADA would have picked their manufacturing partner for the TDs.
Kaveri engine is 90kN flat rated. This means that as the altitude increases, the engine will be able to maintain the 90kN thrust. This is done by having a higher peak thrust by 10% in the sea level of 65/100kN but derating to maximum of 60/90kN using FADEC programming. As the height increases, the maximum thrust remains stable.
The advantage is that the same engine can be used for Naval LCA MK2 as well as Airforce LCA MK2 by simply switching off the derating. This results in higher engine life and lesser maintenance for Air Force engine while avoiding construction of another engine for Navy's carrier take-off.
The higher rated engine is the bigger engine for AMCA with 110kN thrust. Whether it will be 82/123kN derated to 72/110kN has to be seen. If this is the case, I see no reason to manufacture another engine at all. The Al31F is a good candidate for AMCA in a derated and flat thrusted form. Al31F is made completely in HAL Koraput thanks to ToT from Russia.
There is good reason to say that AMCA and LCA Mk2 are being developed in parallel and with technology sharing. So, it is not really a long dream to get one's hands on AMCA.
Again, as I mentioned earlier, if the engines used in AMCA be the same as Su30 MKI one in a derated manner, there is no reason to even worry about developing a new engine. At most, one should think o increasing the thrust of Al31F into 140kN by improving technology and alloy. Developing a completely new engine might not be necessary
The advantage is that the same engine can be used for Naval LCA MK2 as well as Airforce LCA MK2 by simply switching off the derating. This results in higher engine life and lesser maintenance for Air Force engine while avoiding construction of another engine for Navy's carrier take-off.
The higher rated engine is the bigger engine for AMCA with 110kN thrust. Whether it will be 82/123kN derated to 72/110kN has to be seen. If this is the case, I see no reason to manufacture another engine at all. The Al31F is a good candidate for AMCA in a derated and flat thrusted form. Al31F is made completely in HAL Koraput thanks to ToT from Russia.
According to the disclosure in parliament, initial 20 teas order costs 2700 crore, next 20 Tejas orders cost 6000 crore. Now, the news was that the total cost for 83 additional Tejas is over 30000 crore with some claiming that the total cost for 123 Tejas being 50000 crore. The glaring difference in costs is a clear indicator that heavy funding has been allocated for development cost too. Considering that LCA is in development, there is good reason to develop the subsystems and sensor fusions in a universal manner so as to be compatible with AMCA. By doing so, the most advanced technology can be incorporated in two planes at a slightly higher cost than developing for just one plane.
There is good reason to say that AMCA and LCA Mk2 are being developed in parallel and with technology sharing. So, it is not really a long dream to get one's hands on AMCA.
Again, as I mentioned earlier, if the engines used in AMCA be the same as Su30 MKI one in a derated manner, there is no reason to even worry about developing a new engine. At most, one should think o increasing the thrust of Al31F into 140kN by improving technology and alloy. Developing a completely new engine might not be necessary
Maybe there is an LCA Mk2 in the plans? Existing infra will take care of Mk2 and new infra for AMCA. Makes sense but both of them still havent been sanctioned funds
What is the purpose of Chitradurga aeronautical test range in all this?? Always thought that's where AMCA will end up...Rustom's are already there.Maybe integration in coimbatore and some time in future testing will shift to ATR,I hope. It would be a damn shame not to utilize it.
And F404 gives upto 90KN. Kaveri gave an max output of 80-82KN and hence falling short of it. And that was the K9 version. Safran was to work with Kaveri for 2 versions. One for 90KN and another for 110or 125KN version.
As far as I know the JV is yet to start as Snecma is still negotiating on some clauses.
You guys shoot from the hip and have little or zero knowledge of this issue. 52/81 KN rating with 13% thrust derate to allow for flat rating till ISA+25*C temperature is higher thrust rating than 54/90KN of F-404 and falls in same bracket as F414 thrust rating of 62.5/98KN.
The planned thrust for Laveri was 54/84KN with flat rating of ISA+25*C.
ADA wants to flight test of two TDs in 3-4 years from the program sanction (2019?). There would be a minimum of 6-7 Prototypes and ~2500+ hrs of flight testing. So, LSP by 2030-31 is a realistic scenario.
This is EOI. ie, testing the waters if they can do it without or with little help of HAL.
Does it sound familiar? LSA/MSA model being repeated here. I had also proposed to have complete internal structures built using metals and to have only the external skin made of composites. And I had proposed it good three years back.
Keep it going. Add all recommendations you have since if they adopt any good suggestions, then it's good for the country.
I call it open source patriotism
An old document regarding AMCA, Good one 
Will AMCA Be India's Last Manned Fighter Jet Programme?
By SP's Special Correspondent
February 01, 2012 : With the amount of energy and focus the government has invested, and continues to invest, in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, some crucial evolutionary efforts get blindsided. Of particular interest is the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a stealthy fifth-generation manned fighter concept intended to produce a potent multirole platform (with a focus on strike profiles) that will, in time, supplant the Indian Air Force's Jaguars and MiG-27s. The government prefers that the AMCA project, headed by scientist Dr. A.K. Ghosh, remains below the proverbial radar, but the secrecy with which the effort progresses has led many to wonder if the AMCA could actually be India's final indigenous manned fighter aircraft programme. (The question assumes huge importance considering that full-scale engineering development (FSED) of the platform could begin within a year.) That notion is supported by to facts: one, the aeronautical establishment will be investing majorly in unmanned combat aerial vehicles (specifically the Predator-like Rustom-H and stealthy flying wing AURA) going with doctrine, and two, the fighter types that will be inducted in the next decade -- both Indian and foreign -- will be templates for improved variants that could be in use for at least the next half-century.
For now, however, the AMCA is a well-defined programme that looks to deliver tangible results in terms of a credible, potent combat aircraft platform on the lines of the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning-II. It makes sense, therefore, for the Indian military-industrial complex to develop revolutionary technologies that will find a place both on manned and unmanned platforms. On the AMCA, Indian scientists are looking to push the envelope further than they've ever tried to before. Every little bit makes a difference when a legacy leap is at play, which is why, from engine performance parameters to control surfaces to control laws to cockpit ergonomics, everything is up for change.
The obvious evolutions are clear: low-observable shape and airframe materials, extensive use of carbon composites, internal weapons bays, low bypass low-emission engines, modular internals etc. The deeper you go, the more complicated and revolutionary the plans actually become.
If AMCA project director Dr. Ghosh meets his objectives, then one of the most compelling aspects of the AMCA will be its cockpit and man-machine interface. To begin with, unlike the decidedly crowded, fourth-generation cockpit of the LCA Tejas, the AMCA cockpit is being developed with a panoramic active-matrix display, of the kind available on American fifth-generation aircraft. Switches, bezels, and keypads stand to be replaced with touchscreen interfaces and voice commands. What Dr. Ghosh's team wants is for the future IAF pilot to have a helmet-mounted display system that allows the dispensing of a head-up display (HUD) from the cockpit altogether, a revolutionary concept. The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADA), which oversees the AMCA programme, has asked private industry in the country to explore the feasibility of creating primary panoramic displays and other avionics displays that would befit a fifth-generation cockpit environment. The cockpit, however, is simply one of what is a hugely ambitious technology wishlist that Dr. Ghosh and his team are pinning their hopes on for the aircraft they ultimately produce.
The proposed evolutions begin at the lowest level -- system architecture -- and will attempt to build a triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture with fiber optic links for signal and data communications, unlike the electrical links on the Tejas platform. Significantly, unlike centralized architecture on the Tejas, the AMCA proposes to sport a distributed architecture with smart sub-systems. Likewise, unlike the LCA's centralized digital flight control computer (DFCC), the AMCA is likely to have a distributed system with smart remote units for data communication with sensors and actuators, a system that will almost definitely require much faster onboard processors.
Sensors will be a proving ground for just how advanced the AMCA programme is, and will be in reality a test case for future applications on unmanned vehicles. Scientists will be working towards getting the mechanical gyros and accelerometers, standard on the Tejas, to evolve on the AMCA into fiber optic gyros, ring laser gyros, and MEMS gyros. The pressure probes and vanes that make up the air-data sensors will become an optical and flush air data system, and position sensors will be linear/rotary optical encoders. Importantly, actuators -- currently electro-hydraulic/direct drive -- could be electro-hydrostatic to accrue substantive weight savings on the AMCA. Sensor fusion for an overarching situation picture is something the ADA is already attempting to achieve on the Tejas suite, so one the AMCA it should be a standard requirement.
One of the key areas that India has lagged behind on is control laws. The AMCA should feature highly evolved integrated control laws for flight, propulsion, braking, nose wheel steer and fuel management and adaptive neural networks for fault detection, identification, and control law reconfiguration. All of this will cost the country much but will find valuable applications in the unmanned programmes, particularly AURA. Unlike the Tejas, which features an avionics systems architecture based on functionality-based individual computer systems connected on MIL-STD-1553B buses and RS 422 links, the AMCA's avionics systems architecture, it is hoped, will feature a "central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic fiber channel by means of multiport connectivity switching modules". In such a system, functionality will be mapped on resources optimally and reallocated when faults occur. Data communications on the AMCA's processing modules will be through a high-speed fiber channel bus, IEEE-1394B-STD. The connectivities will be switched by means of a multiport switching matrix, with data speeds of 400MB/second. In literature made available on the programme, these facets reveal the stunning leap scientists are looking to make with this one manned aircraft programme.
The AMCA is almost certain to have integrated radio navigation systems, where all burdens earlier borne by analog circuits will be carried out by digital processors. Communication systems will be based on software radio ranging from UHF to K band, with data links for digital data/voice data and video.
One of the most exciting new area being exploited for the AMCA is algorithms. While the LCA suite no major decision aid to the pilot, the AMCA commander will have the ability to plan attack strategies, avoidance tactics, retreat strategies and evasive strategies for himself and his partners in the air. Each of these technologies, planned in a manned environment are being evolved and developed for an extension to an autonomous unmanned environment as well. Critics would argue that the establishment needs to focus on finishing what it has started before dreaming big. Others would say, it's better to think big now than face repeated obsolescence even before your bird flies.
Will AMCA Be India's Last Manned Fighter Jet Programme?
By SP's Special Correspondent
For now, however, the AMCA is a well-defined programme that looks to deliver tangible results in terms of a credible, potent combat aircraft platform on the lines of the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning-II. It makes sense, therefore, for the Indian military-industrial complex to develop revolutionary technologies that will find a place both on manned and unmanned platforms. On the AMCA, Indian scientists are looking to push the envelope further than they've ever tried to before. Every little bit makes a difference when a legacy leap is at play, which is why, from engine performance parameters to control surfaces to control laws to cockpit ergonomics, everything is up for change.
The obvious evolutions are clear: low-observable shape and airframe materials, extensive use of carbon composites, internal weapons bays, low bypass low-emission engines, modular internals etc. The deeper you go, the more complicated and revolutionary the plans actually become.
If AMCA project director Dr. Ghosh meets his objectives, then one of the most compelling aspects of the AMCA will be its cockpit and man-machine interface. To begin with, unlike the decidedly crowded, fourth-generation cockpit of the LCA Tejas, the AMCA cockpit is being developed with a panoramic active-matrix display, of the kind available on American fifth-generation aircraft. Switches, bezels, and keypads stand to be replaced with touchscreen interfaces and voice commands. What Dr. Ghosh's team wants is for the future IAF pilot to have a helmet-mounted display system that allows the dispensing of a head-up display (HUD) from the cockpit altogether, a revolutionary concept. The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADA), which oversees the AMCA programme, has asked private industry in the country to explore the feasibility of creating primary panoramic displays and other avionics displays that would befit a fifth-generation cockpit environment. The cockpit, however, is simply one of what is a hugely ambitious technology wishlist that Dr. Ghosh and his team are pinning their hopes on for the aircraft they ultimately produce.
The proposed evolutions begin at the lowest level -- system architecture -- and will attempt to build a triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture with fiber optic links for signal and data communications, unlike the electrical links on the Tejas platform. Significantly, unlike centralized architecture on the Tejas, the AMCA proposes to sport a distributed architecture with smart sub-systems. Likewise, unlike the LCA's centralized digital flight control computer (DFCC), the AMCA is likely to have a distributed system with smart remote units for data communication with sensors and actuators, a system that will almost definitely require much faster onboard processors.
Sensors will be a proving ground for just how advanced the AMCA programme is, and will be in reality a test case for future applications on unmanned vehicles. Scientists will be working towards getting the mechanical gyros and accelerometers, standard on the Tejas, to evolve on the AMCA into fiber optic gyros, ring laser gyros, and MEMS gyros. The pressure probes and vanes that make up the air-data sensors will become an optical and flush air data system, and position sensors will be linear/rotary optical encoders. Importantly, actuators -- currently electro-hydraulic/direct drive -- could be electro-hydrostatic to accrue substantive weight savings on the AMCA. Sensor fusion for an overarching situation picture is something the ADA is already attempting to achieve on the Tejas suite, so one the AMCA it should be a standard requirement.
One of the key areas that India has lagged behind on is control laws. The AMCA should feature highly evolved integrated control laws for flight, propulsion, braking, nose wheel steer and fuel management and adaptive neural networks for fault detection, identification, and control law reconfiguration. All of this will cost the country much but will find valuable applications in the unmanned programmes, particularly AURA. Unlike the Tejas, which features an avionics systems architecture based on functionality-based individual computer systems connected on MIL-STD-1553B buses and RS 422 links, the AMCA's avionics systems architecture, it is hoped, will feature a "central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic fiber channel by means of multiport connectivity switching modules". In such a system, functionality will be mapped on resources optimally and reallocated when faults occur. Data communications on the AMCA's processing modules will be through a high-speed fiber channel bus, IEEE-1394B-STD. The connectivities will be switched by means of a multiport switching matrix, with data speeds of 400MB/second. In literature made available on the programme, these facets reveal the stunning leap scientists are looking to make with this one manned aircraft programme.
The AMCA is almost certain to have integrated radio navigation systems, where all burdens earlier borne by analog circuits will be carried out by digital processors. Communication systems will be based on software radio ranging from UHF to K band, with data links for digital data/voice data and video.
One of the most exciting new area being exploited for the AMCA is algorithms. While the LCA suite no major decision aid to the pilot, the AMCA commander will have the ability to plan attack strategies, avoidance tactics, retreat strategies and evasive strategies for himself and his partners in the air. Each of these technologies, planned in a manned environment are being evolved and developed for an extension to an autonomous unmanned environment as well. Critics would argue that the establishment needs to focus on finishing what it has started before dreaming big. Others would say, it's better to think big now than face repeated obsolescence even before your bird flies.
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Dr AK Ghosh (OS, PD(AMCA)) still working at ADA and looking after AMCA