Airborne Early Warning Systems - A-50EI Phalcon, DRDO Netra AEW&C, DRDO AWACS

[Speedster1]

Wish IAF will get Phalcon conformal array type awacs from IAI.

If they're going for a foreign radar, there are just 3 possible contenders imo. And this time the IAF won't insist on a Russian-origin carrier aircraft like it happened when we got the legacy Phalcon. We might skip the A330 too in order to save money.

- Boeing Wedgetail (the USAF is getting them)

- SAAB Globaleye

- IAI Phalcon CAEW

 

[Hydra]

And this time the IAF won't insist on a Russian-origin carrier aircraft like it happened when we got the legacy Phalcon. We might skip the A330 too in order to save money.

Wedgetail is 240 degree coverage AWACS ,I think SAAB one also .
Apart from IAI, Russians & Chinese have an active 360awacs program.
We can rule out Chinese from this tender,they are not going to offer to us .

So only IAI & Russians are left out.Now I am suspecting IAF reduced benchmark to avoid single vendor situation. Damn if this is the case Russians will qualifie ,just like shoulder fired SAM tender we will end up with mediocre AWACS.

If they're going for a foreign radar, there are just 3 possible contenders imo. And this time the IAF won't insist on a Russian-origin carrier aircraft like it happened when we got the legacy Phalcon. We might skip the A330 too in order to save money.

- Boeing Wedgetail (the USAF is getting them)

- SAAB Globaleye

- IAI Phalcon CAEW

I am least bothered about the platform, my concern is the radar system.

 

[Hydra]

Notably, the procurement does not mandate the system to be entirely indigenous.

The flexibility provided in terms of Indian Content and procurement categories allows for a mix of indigenous and imported technologies, supporting India’s push towards self-reliance in defense manufacturing under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.


Operational Modes: Should include normal search, long-range/extended range (ER) modes, sea surveillance, Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI), and hypersonic modes.


Netra is a 3D radar and IAF is looking for a Next generation Radar in this case.

I think Netra is a 4D radar.

 

[Speedster1]

Wedgetail is 240 degree coverage AWACS

Nope. Full 360 coverage. That's the beauty of the MESA 'top-hat' radar

Royal Air Force Wedgetail AEW&C Aircraft Start Test Flights in the UK | AIN

Three Boeing E-7 Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft for the RAF have been equipped to detect and identify enemy targets and track multiple airborne and maritime threats.

www.ainonline.com

,I think SAAB one also

This bird also. It has nose and tail antennas for all-aspect coverage

UAE’s Saab GlobalEye Airborne Early Warning Fleet To Grow Next Year | AIN

Saab is set to fly the fifth GlobalEye uncrewed multi-sensor airborne early warning and surveillance aircraft for the UAE imminently.

www.ainonline.com

Negotiations on 2 more Phalcon IL-76 with IAI went nowhere owing to high costs. That maybe one reason why the IAF is going the tender route instead of processing this as a follow-on buy. Otherwise, IAI AEW tech is comparable to the best in the world specs-wise.

But I wonder where all this leaves the DRDO Netra program. Until a few months ago the IAF was talking about catching up with the neighbours in terms of numbers. Now we have another pie in the sky RFI.

They should have at least started negotiations for the EMB-145s as the MK1A is essentially an upgrade program and would therefore deliver faster. Anyways, time will tell.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Problem with low bench mark is it will make way for Russians to participate with their inferior product, worst scenario is DRDO will sabotage the process by offering their own design based on low bench mark requirements.

Russians are failing miserably with AESA segment. IAF will want the bare minimum performance of what DRDO can do.

The requirements are for 4D AESA.

 

[Chain Smoker]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1840293926005289174

 

[mamiam23]

Nope. Full 360 coverage. That's the beauty of the MESA 'top-hat' radar

Royal Air Force Wedgetail AEW&C Aircraft Start Test Flights in the UK | AIN

Three Boeing E-7 Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft for the RAF have been equipped to detect and identify enemy targets and track multiple airborne and maritime threats.

www.ainonline.com

This bird also. It has nose and tail antennas for all-aspect coverage

UAE’s Saab GlobalEye Airborne Early Warning Fleet To Grow Next Year | AIN

Saab is set to fly the fifth GlobalEye uncrewed multi-sensor airborne early warning and surveillance aircraft for the UAE imminently.

www.ainonline.com

Negotiations on 2 more Phalcon IL-76 with IAI went nowhere owing to high costs. That maybe one reason why the IAF is going the tender route instead of processing this as a follow-on buy. Otherwise, IAI AEW tech is comparable to the Ybest in the world specs-wise.

But I wonder where all this leaves the DRDO Netra program. Until a few months ago the IAF was talking about catching up with the neighbours in terms of numbers. Now we have another pie in the sky RFI.

They should have at least started negotiations for the EMB-145s as the MK1A is essentially an upgrade program and would therefore deliver faster. Anyways, time will tell.

The MESA top-hat system is essentially a Jugaad and doesn’t compare to a full 360-degree radar system like the Phalcon or KJ-2000. The IAF has always been reluctant to opt for American combat assets, especially fighters or AWACS. There are only three radars in the world that offer a true 360-degree capability: the IAI Phalcon (already in service), the Chinese KJ-2000, and some Russian <Insert Whatever Junk> system. The Chinese option is obviously a no-go, and DRDO can definitely produce a better radar than the Russian maal, which has been an outright failure, especially in the Ukraine war.

The IAF isn't a fan of Maintenance Nightmares Russian planes like the A-50 and prefers platforms like the A330/A320. So, importing just the Russian <Insert Whatever Junk> radar, without the plane, is very very unlikely and almost zero. This leaves us with the A330 as the platform and the radar choice between DRDO and Israel. While Israel has some experience with radar integration, they can't modify a complex wide-body aircraft like the A330—that’s a job only Airbus, the OEM, can handle. If there's any Dalal kickbacks involved, the only possible bidder could be Israel, and only for the radar. However, the reason the original Phalcon deal was canceled might come back into play: the exorbitant cost. With the current budget, I doubt they'd be able to afford more than three systems before the MoD's finance department steps in. This makes it more likely that DRDO will grab this opportunity over IAI.

 

[Chain Smoker]

The MESA top-hat system is essentially a Jugaad and doesn’t compare to a full 360-degree radar system like the Phalcon or KJ-000. The IAF has always been reluctant to opt for American combat assets, especially fighters or AWACS. There are only three radars in the world that offer a true 360-degree capability: the IAI Phalcon (already in service), the Chinese KJ-2000, and some Russian <Insert Whatever Junk> system. The Chinese option is obviously a no-go, and DRDO can definitely produce a better radar than the Russian maal, which has been an outright failure, especially in the Ukraine war.

The IAF isn't a fan of Maintenance Nightmares Russian planes like the A-50 and prefers platforms like the A330/A320. So, importing just the Russian <Insert Whatever Junk> radar, without the plane, is very very unlikely and almost zero. This leaves us with the A330 as the platform and the radar choice between DRDO and Israel. While Israel has some experience with radar integration, they can't modify a complex wide-body aircraft like the A330—that’s a job only Airbus, the OEM, can handle. If there's any Dalal kickbacks involved, the only possible bidder could be Israel, and only for the radar. However, the reason the original Phalcon deal was canceled might come back into play: the exorbitant cost. With the current budget, I doubt they'd be able to afford more than three systems before the MoD's finance department steps in. This makes it more likely that DRDO will grab this opportunity over IAI.

It has asked for 4D radar which is going to be fitted on netra mk2. Only drdo A330 program fulfills this criteria.

 

[randomradio]

RFI calls for 4D AESA Radar with 360° capabilities. 12 work stations and 40,000 feet altitude operation for 8 hours.

A330 based i think.

A330 is for 14 hours endurance, so it doesn't have to be that. Smaller jets can be options too.

For sea surface they are asking 425 km, you think that it's for 5 m2 objects too? How they can ask detection range for surface fleet at only 425 km.

Also they just asking AESA radar and not mentioning GaAs or GaN type.

@vstol Jockey @randomradio

It will be GaN. But don't sweat the details. All these specs are generic.

 

[randomradio]

If they're going for a foreign radar, there are just 3 possible contenders imo. And this time the IAF won't insist on a Russian-origin carrier aircraft like it happened when we got the legacy Phalcon. We might skip the A330 too in order to save money.

- Boeing Wedgetail (the USAF is getting them)

- SAAB Globaleye

- IAI Phalcon CAEW

There's the Russian A-100 too.

 

[Speedster1]

The MESA top-hat system is essentially a Jugaad and doesn’t compare to a full 360-degree radar system

It does provide 360 deg coverage, much better than 'Balance Beam' type SAAB Erieye, KJ-500 and our very own Netra Mk1. The antenna arrangement also provides less drag. Plus there are sensors in the nose and tail which likely make up for any deficiencies.

There are only three radars in the world that offer a true 360-degree capability

The triangle antenna config is optimum for coverage. However, this is the age of conformal, lightweight that provide comparable coverage with relatively less drag, weight penalty. Israel has been a pioneer at this with the B-707 Condor AWACS sold to Chile in the 1990s.

importing just the Russian <Insert Whatever Junk> radar, without the plane, is very very unlikely and almost zero.

There's the Russian A-100 too.

Besides lagging in radar tech, serviceability of the IL-76 itself is a major headache for the IAF. This is despite the fact that our ac have newer PS-90A engines (with FADEC?). The A-100 new-gen AWACS is based on an upgraded IL-476 airframe with greater MTOW but afaik it's the same engine.

 

[Speedster1]

Damn if this is the case Russians will qualifie ,just like shoulder fired SAM tender we will end up with mediocre AWACS.

I hope not. The IAF has operated Russian A-50 AWACS on lease in the past and probably found them lacking. This was before we signed on for the Phalcon. The new A-100 probably isn't very good either.

Unfortunately, at the time they didn't go for Airbus (A320/21?) platforms which were on offer. Likely for fear of US dual-use restrictions. We had just got out of sanctions for Pokhran back then and the IAF was wary of US components in the ac.

 

[mamiam23]

It does provide 360 deg coverage, much better than 'Balance Beam' type SAAB Erieye, KJ-500 and our very own Netra Mk1. The antenna arrangement also provides less drag. Plus there are sensors in the nose and tail which likely make up for any deficiencies.


The triangle antenna config is optimum for coverage. However, this is the age of conformal, lightweight that provide comparable coverage with relatively less drag, weight penalty. Israel has been a pioneer at this with the B-707 Condor AWACS sold to Chile in the 1990s.





Besides lagging in radar tech, serviceability of the IL-76 itself is a major headache for the IAF. This is despite the fact that our ac have newer PS-90A engines (with FADEC?). The A-100 new-gen AWACS is based on an upgraded IL-476 airframe with greater MTOW but afaik it's the same engine.

Its a myth that spread by some defense exfart that Idli shape Radome increases drag. USAF Official admitted that E3 Sentry's Idli rather provides increased lift for the plane with its shape. The Conformal Radar is very complex and requires too much modifications into the airframe. Which adds cost and hence even the E-7 Wedgetail didn't attempt that. For Conformal Radar you can only limit yourself to Business class jets where engines are mounted on rear. Otherwise with A320 or A330, attempting the conformal radar would cutoff half of the view needing split radar arrays on front and back of sides, the wings and engines would obstruct.

The Conformal Configuration is best atmost for business class jets with engines in back and its less than optimum for large Jets.

 

[randomradio]

Besides lagging in radar tech, serviceability of the IL-76 itself is a major headache for the IAF. This is despite the fact that our ac have newer PS-90A engines (with FADEC?). The A-100 new-gen AWACS is based on an upgraded IL-476 airframe with greater MTOW but afaik it's the same engine.

The IL-76 is passe, we now have the modified IL-476. There were issues servicing the IL-76 earlier because it was out of production, but 476's put it back in the game.

But the real problem is unlike A330, while the IL-76 is definitely more expensive to maintain, it is also a far more militarized aircraft with toughness and flying capabilities a jetliner cannot fully emulate, the same as the C-17.

As for radar tech, we don't know. The Russians typically introduce more advanced tech to compensate for deficiencies within the same generation. For example, the SU was clearly behind the American MS radars on fighters, so they introduced PESA instead. They could resort to the same trick here as well.

There are two advantages to their AWACS though. Others do not have one in the same class. The Wedgetail, CAEW, GlobalEye etc are all on small or narrow-body aircraft, so all their radars are smaller or come with certain performance limitations. For example, the Wedgetail is based on an aircraft with a max payload of 20T, whereas IL-476 does 60T, as much as the A330, and the IL-476 has twice the range. Any attempt to create an equivalent based on the A330 is going to be an exercise in and of itself because NATO's downgrading its platform requirement to the Wedgetail.

Second is the IAF already operates the type, so it has a significant cost advantage. The IAF has approached the Russians to upgrade the older IL-76 with new engines, so a life extension to 2050 is also possible. And 6 of these would complement the Phalcons.

 

[randomradio]

Its a myth that spread by some defense exfart that Idli shape Radome increases drag. USAF Official admitted that E3 Sentry's Idli rather provides increased lift for the plane with its shape. The Conformal Radar is very complex and requires too much modifications into the airframe. Which adds cost and hence even the E-7 Wedgetail didn't attempt that. For Conformal Radar you can only limit yourself to Business class jets where engines are mounted on rear. Otherwise with A320 or A330, attempting the conformal radar would cutoff half of the view needing split radar arrays on front and back of sides, the wings and engines would obstruct.

The Conformal Configuration is best atmost for business class jets with engines in back and its less than optimum for large Jets.

Yeah, such a system is fine for ground search rather than AWACS. And smaller the jet, the less likely is the use of L band and UHF band.

The CAEW gets its 360 deg via S band radars, which is not particularly convenient for this role. It only serves to complement something in the A330, A-50/100 class.

 

[Hydra]

The IL-76 is passe, we now have the modified IL-476. There were issues servicing the IL-76 earlier because it was out of production, but 476's put it back in the game.

But the real problem is unlike A330, while the IL-76 is definitely more expensive to maintain, it is also a far more militarized aircraft with toughness and flying capabilities a jetliner cannot fully emulate, the same as the C-17.

As for radar tech, we don't know. The Russians typically introduce more advanced tech to compensate for deficiencies within the same generation. For example, the SU was clearly behind the American MS radars on fighters, so they introduced PESA instead. They could resort to the same trick here as well.

There are two advantages to their AWACS though. Others do not have one in the same class. The Wedgetail, CAEW, GlobalEye etc are all on small or narrow-body aircraft, so all their radars are smaller or come with certain performance limitations. For example, the Wedgetail is based on an aircraft with a max payload of 20T, whereas IL-476 does 60T, as much as the A330, and the IL-476 has twice the range. Any attempt to create an equivalent based on the A330 is going to be an exercise in and of itself because NATO's downgrading its platform requirement to the Wedgetail.

Second is the IAF already operates the type, so it has a significant cost advantage. The IAF has approached the Russians to upgrade the older IL-76 with new engines, so a life extension to 2050 is also possible. And 6 of these would complement the Phalcons.

All the perfume from Arabia will not be able to sweeten the Russian weapons.
Russian weapons are Junk Junk Junk,nothing else.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

One option can be the 767 platform. It has 2 advantages compared to a330 now.

1. HAL and IAI are already exploring the usage of 767 conversions for tanker aircrafts.

2. 767 has already been converted to fly the E3 sentry radome for the Japanese.

 

[mamiam23]

One option can be the 767 platform. It has 2 advantages compared to a330 now.

1. HAL and IAI are already exploring the usage of 767 conversions for tanker aircrafts.

2. 767 has already been converted to fly the E3 sentry radome for the Japanese.

We should had linked A330/767 Conversion know-how and know-why with A320/Boeing civilian orders of Tata and Indigo. Otherwise for each modification, they would basically charge a bomb. Used A330 and 767 are available for dirt cheap prices. Based on those airframes, we could had developed everything from AEWACS, Standoff Jammer, Maritime Patrol, Tankers and even Airborne Ground Surveillance. But, babus don't have any vision.

 

[Ashwin]

I think this is just an exploration RFI of the market and they are having second thought on going for Netra-mk1A. Remember the mythical Tanker AWACS concepts by the same IAF folks?. Not a serious thing.

E-7 is the best possible option available, used by the most capable air forces. If that's good enough for them, then it is more than enough for us.

There is no way the IAF is going for anything Russian. We are past that.

 

[mamiam23]

I think this is just an exploration RFI of the market and they are having second thought on going for Netra-mk1A. Remember the mythical Tanker AWACS concepts by the same IAF folks?.

E-7 is the best possible option available, used by the most capable air forces. If that's good enough for them, then it is more than enough for us.

There is no way the IAF is going for anything Russian. We are past that.

Which genius Idea is it to combine AWACS and Tankers? AWACS stay deep inside our territory while Tankers stay further front. AWACS flight regime and Tanker flight regimes are different. Not only that, A330 MRTT carries fuel mostly on wings aka its own fuel tank to unload. There isn't any internal fuel tank in superstructure like the Boeing Pegasus. Unless someone's brain isn't braining, you are draining AWACS own fuel reducing its loitering time by unloading fuel to fighter jets. Do they really think frontline fighterjets would come all the way back to refuel?

Truly genius idea from Import Air Force. On other hand, credit is for IAF for thrashing away junk Russian shit.

E7 Wedgetail is not true 360 degree thing. Its a compromise by Australian Air Force. Even the USAF reluctantly inducted it as "INTERIM" option only. What we need is a plane as large as possible with Idli Radar as large as possible. Not cost cutting project again like Mk1A Netra.