Have you seen the retractable probe on SU and MIg-29s? same about russian radomes.
Last edited:
Argentina Fighter Jet Procurement
- Thread starter Ankit Kumar
- Start date
Do we need to re write the code for Radar signal processing with change of random?
We do have local radomes in development but the radar performance was depriciated significantly when we used them.
Intersting thing to note is that when Jaishakar Saab was in Argentina meeting with their head of state and talking about Tejas, a Argentine military group was in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamara , inspecting the new built JF17 Block 3.
This competition can turn out true 1 on 1.
Other competitors are stored Kfirs , stored Israeli F16s, stored American F16s, Stored Gripen C/Ds, etc.
This competition can turn out true 1 on 1.
Other competitors are stored Kfirs , stored Israeli F16s, stored American F16s, Stored Gripen C/Ds, etc.
Main problem is I think we don't have an alternate for Martin baker ejection seats onboard Tejas.
I don't think UK will have an objection per say for ejection seats. F16s and Gripens on offer have greater UK input , heck even their own IAR Pampa based on Alpha Jet has UK parts.
So if Argentina can actually pay like 40 million USD for an aircraft, Tejas has a chance.
If they can pay only 20 million , then it's Kfir vs JF17.
I was reviewing jf-17 and I really think it's a better platform for the Argentinians. It has a lot of anti-ship options. And if the claims of pl-15 integration is true it will be a great A2G option too.
They have lot of A2G options and A2S options. That will be ideal for the Falklands. Plus it's a basket case of a country too diplomatically.
Kyopo of Mig21 has better capability to utilise the full range of R77 than the JF17s radar to utilise the capability of SD12. Forget things like PL15.
If you want to target a fighter jet from another fighter jet over 150km + , you either need a Bars radar or something like a bigger Uttam MK2. Bars can actually fire 6 AAMs at 6 different targets and once fired move on to another 6. That's some serious capability and computing, and that's why we are having a difficult time finding a Russian AESA to replace / replicate and improve that capability.
You can list out 100 different things. But in real operational scenario you will find out the difference between a 20 million and a 45 million jet.
If JF17 wins, it will because they can at best go for a 20 million USD plane.
BTW : Our Uttam MK1 which will go into Tejas MK1A is like 20% better on specifications than the AESA Russians offer with Mig35.
You are not getting a better radar than that Russian offering for 1/5th its cost in a China-Pakistan partnership.
You are not getting a better radar than that Russian offering for 1/5th its cost in a China-Pakistan partnership.
That's only true for their blk 1's that are as capable as our bisons. The blk 2's use klj 7(V2) radar which has 150km range so that they can use the sd-12.
The blk-3's would be able to use the pl-15 most probably. Though I doubt that too. The whole j-10 purchase makes me feel that the blk-3's are incapable of using the pl-15.
This is some real capabilities sadly. And tejas is actually kinda behind in it. Although tejas mk1 is superior to jf-17blk1 and blk2 in A2A (i-derby and astra mk1) in A2G it's sort of inferior when it comes to standoff munitions. Same is true for anti-ship missions where the jf-17 has
The jf -17 has the cm-400 akg
Cm-802A/yj-83
Gb-6 for blk-3's but no proof of integration
In a purely anti ship role these even though unreliable will still be dangerous. Tejas has nothing equivalent of this. We haven't even integrated harpoons or exocet.
In A2G although capabilities are similar the jf-17 does have superior options when it comes to range.
H-4 SOW
The other being REK series of bombs. Now
This has a range of 60km-100km. Now their is another version known as rek-III which is claimed to be 200km in range.
We have spice 2000 and there is spice 250 and aasm hammer with similar capabilities and range. But still the Denel raptor has a higher range as well as this new REK-III will have a range of 200km that will be a problem. Since PAF can take standoff shots from further within their airspace against our positions.
Now tejas is said to be integrated with kh-35 and other russian cruise missiles for anti-ship role but we have no proof regarding that. So essentially the tejas is behind the bandar in anti-ship role and that may actually result in the Argentinians going for the jf-17. Since no other aircraft has this much variety and its sanction proof.
Impressive informative post but how did you arrive at the conclusion that the LCA would lose out to the JF-17 on account of poor integration of AShM capabilities. To begin with, such a capability is not within the LCA's remit not for lack of capacity but because other Fighter Aircrafts have been tasked with this role namely the MiG-29Ks, Jaguars & the MKIs.
Both SoW & AShM capabilities can be inbuilt within the LCA too , should the IAF decide to do so. In case of the former, it's a question of selecting an LR SoW more than anything to match the forthcoming capacities of the PAF & integrate it with the whole menagerie the IAF possesses.
To come to the meat of the issue, the Argentine Air Force is looking for a cost effective solution to replace it's antiquated A-4s which is essentially a trainer cum Light Attack aircraft. I haven't seen any reports of them considering it for an ASh role.
Besides Argentina is broke & what's more has been the beneficiary of Chinese largesse besides being a BRI partner. So the chances of them considering other alternatives is slim to begin with. The only thing going against the JF-17 is it's performance & the engine both in terms of it's performance & origin.
Given their precarious finances, OpEx will also be a huge consideration which I think rules out the US, Israeli & Swedish alternatives ( which doesn't suit their requirements in any case & is obsolete as far as the Kfir goes) apart from the CAPEX part of it . I believe India has extended / is considering extension of a line of credit to Argentina in this respect as well as well as considering deferred payments & barter arrangements.
If Argentina is willing to overlook the obvious issues with the JF-17 & consider only the financial aspects, then hands down China will prevail though I can't see how the Argentine Air Force can neglect the glaring deficiencies in the JF-17 (which the Indian side is bound to highlight ) apart from hampering performance will also eat into their OpEx. But then again stranger things have happened.
Regarding issues like the radome, retractable IFR probe & the ejection seat, other equally good alternatives exist with Russia & the US . Besides these aren't the kind of stuff that's critical to the selection or rejection of an aircraft nor is the integration of alternatives a big deal.
Block 3s radar might be close to the older mig29B radar in capability.
Remember its air cooled aesa , smaller in size on an aircraft with rd93.
A2G will be a challenge, but for export purposes, Tejas capability is more than good enough.
It's not only the financial aspect but also the political aspect too. The Argentinians are essentially a pariah in the western world due to the whole Falklands debacle. The jf-17 is completely seperate from western supply chains. The blk-3 basically offers everything along with a decent anti-ship and a2g package which would interest the Argentinians. Every other option apart from it has an American engine or British parts. And when compared to other options tejas isn't that impressive too when compared to the kfir's or Gripen C's in contention which will be more expensive than tejas but still. This is not Malaysia where the only real competitor is the fa-50. The conditions are a lot different here. The Chinese will provide investment too. I seriously doubt that we win here. The jf-17 blk 3 fits their requirement fairly well. The minor unreliabilty wouldn't matter to the Argentinians with the capability they will get.
But the tejas needs to have anti-ship and stand off munitions integrated like the exocet, harpoon, kepd-350, scalp, j-sow. And all of this can be easily integrated on the tejas. We literally have a Gripen C equivalent in our hands. We can even team up with Boeing or raytheon and put the apg-84 on the tejas for the export market (this is the same thing the SoKo are doing for fa-50 blk 20).
I will go with what we know here.
The bandar blk 1 and initial blk 2's have this radar
The blk 2's have the klj7 V2. Now the block 2 range is considered to be upgraded with detection of 5m2 RCS fighters at 140-150km range but no proof on how true the claim is
The mig 29 upg's most probably have this radar
And the blk 3's are using the klj 7a aesa radar
Now the air cooled point is correct since the klj-7a has a bad mtbf and it's capabilities are extremely over sold by the cheenis. The range detection for 5m2 target is 150 km so its aesa will only be a decent improvement over our upg's too.
Last edited:
I said Mig29B, not the Mig29UPG. That's the capability of their block 2 radar.
5m^2 at 150km , that's something we expect from our RDY2 in M2000. That's good capability.
And if they could replicate those figures, I would be impressed. Damm impressed.
Let me lay it out as easily as possible. The aim of Block 1 radar was to perform as good as the Grifo of Italy. But it fared extremely poor. The 2nd block , claims to have achieved the Grifo capability.
Now Grifo is not exactly contemporary technology.
That's why I compared there Block 2 radar capability with the one of original Mig29B ones. The one before the upgrade.
For the AESA , our Uttam MK1 is 20%+ better than the one Russians offer for export in Mig35. The AESA they have used in Block 3 will struggle to do half the things the Mig35 AESA can do.
The only way they are firing PL15s at 150km is via help of their ZDK03 or the J10.
The only way they are firing PL15s at 150km is via help of their ZDK03 or the J10.
Finances will be one of the key drivers of the decision which ultimately in all such cases is bound to be political.
Western nations have resumed arms supplies to Argentina. They're only a pariah as far as the UK goes. Argentina doesn't get much respect & attention is coz for 2 decades or more they've been in financial doldrums for most of the time & as with all such countries in a spot, China is the go to country to bail them out. That should explain why you don't see Argentina featured much in Western news except if there's bad press.
Once again I haven't seen any reports claiming the Argentines are looking for a fighter with ASh capabilities though that shouldn't be an issue with the LCA.
Pre owned Kfirs were offered by Israel to Argentina for 20m USD / unit way back in 2012-13. After some negotiations the talks collapsed. So, there's nothing new there except the Israelis are prepared to upgrade it with an AESA radar & Blk 60 capabilities with a 40 yr warranty on the air frame life (?) except that we don't know the price.
All 3 Western options are expensive as far as CAPEX & OpEX goes besides being over engineered for the needs of the Argentine AF. The new LIFT Variant is an ideal replacement for the A-4s not just in terms of their operational requirements but their CAPEX & OpEx too.
I don't doubt you at all. It all boils down to how much are the Argentine Air Force convinced the Jf-17 is a blunder & what weight their opinion carries with their government otherwise the decision is a foregone conclusion.
It's not minor by any stretch of imagination.
Agreed.
I actually don't buy those claims of 150m2 to be honest. Since there are no pics of klj7v2 that I could find. It seems like a fabrication by the Pakistanis. Also highly unlikely consider the mig 29 upg radar has that capability with two engines while jf-17 has that with single engine. Something is fishy.