Arjun Main Battle Tank (Mk-1 & Mk-2)

[Gautam]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
So cant we replace RHS with HNS on later date after prototyping etc ?

The NERA is attached on to the chassis & can be replaced whenever we want. But it will make the tank heavy. The lighter version of the NG-MBT can have the MHA/RHA & the heavier version can have the HNS. We can use the light version in mountains or for amphibious missions & use the heavy ones in plains & desert.

Replacing the RHA on the Kanchan armour with HNS was one of the initial requirement of the Arjun Mk-1 being upgraded to Mk-1A. DMRL developed the HNS as a part of that upgrade. But the Mk-1A tank was 68 tons with the RHA adding HNS will surely push the weight to 70+ tons. Therefore it was dropped.

The need for HNS would be lesser if the hard kill APS was ready. But we are gripped with stasis there. DRDO's own system isn't ready & it is not even mentioned as an ongoing project in DRDO's publications. Wonder if they just closed the project or something. We could just buy the Israeli APS in the meantime, but nope. We will just sit there.

 

[AbRaj]

The NERA is attached on to the chassis & can be replaced whenever we want. But it will make the tank heavy. The lighter version of the NG-MBT can have the MHA/RHA & the heavier version can have the HNS. We can use the light version in mountains or for amphibious missions & use the heavy ones in plains & desert.

IMO up gunning the main gun would help us offset any deficiency in Protection System. We should have first shoot first kill capability and for that better main gun like the newer Rh-120 with higher penetrating shells should be considered.

Replacing the RHA on the Kanchan armour with HNS was one of the initial requirement of the Arjun Mk-1 being upgraded to Mk-1A. DMRL developed the HNS as a part of that upgrade. But the Mk-1A tank was 68 tons with the RHA adding HNS will surely push the weight to 70+ tons. Therefore it was dropped.

The need for HNS would be lesser if the hard kill APS was ready. But we are gripped with stasis there. DRDO's own system isn't ready & it is not even mentioned as an ongoing project in DRDO's publications. Wonder if they just closed the project or something. We could just buy the Israeli APS in the meantime, but nope. We will just sit there.

PKS was saying that NHS is supposed to decrease weight of the Arjun .
Yes Trophy system is the only logical choice right now.
BTW do Americans use APS in Abrams ?
And what’s APS on T14 ?

 

[Gautam]

PKS was saying that NHS is supposed to decrease weight of the Arjun .

The reduction in weight would come from adoption of a honeycomb pattern on the plates allowing us to shave off extra material. I think I posted a pic of the honey comb structured HNS a few posts back on this thread. That was one of the test plates. With HNS you can afford to use a honey comb design as it is strong enough. RHA/MHA can't afford you that, therefore you have to get plates.

If you replace a RHA/MHA plate for a HNS plate the tank would be heavier. But if you adopt a honeycomb or any other high rigidity pattern you can shave off quiet a bit of weight. The honeycomb design was proposed when the Army opposed the adoption of HNS as the tank was already quite heavy. But the Army wasn't convinced by it, so that's that.

Yes Trophy system is the only logical choice right now.
BTW do Americans use APS in Abrams ?
And what’s APS on T14 ?

I have no clue about the Russian or American APS.

 

[randomradio]

Yes Trophy system is the only logical choice right now.
BTW do Americans use APS in Abrams ?
And what’s APS on T14 ?

The Abrams uses Trophy, which is only good against RPGs and ATGMs. It didn't meet IA requirements, along with Iron Fist. DRDO actually started a program because the Israelis failed to deliver a satisfactory product.

The T-14 uses Afghanit, which is good against ATGMs, RPGs and APFSDS. They claim it's the best, but it's only a claim.

 

[AbRaj]

The Abrams uses Trophy, which is only good against RPGs and ATGMs. It didn't meet IA requirements, along with Iron Fist. DRDO actually started a program because the Israelis failed to deliver a satisfactory product.

The T-14 uses Afghanit, which is good against ATGMs, RPGs and APFSDS. They claim it's the best, but it's only a claim.

So trophy which is the best world has to offer, is not good enough for army ?
Why it sounds so familier. LOL.
Indian Army’s requirements are quite stupid most of the times like those Multi trigger rifles in 70s or multibarrel rifle with bayonet, carrying handle and other archaic ww1 era stuff in, last decade tender.

I thing among All the major Asian countries, our MBTs are the oldest and crappiest. These export gradeT90s and T70s are severely outgunned and out armoured by what our rivals have and inducting, in numbers. Luckily for Army there are no Tank skirmishes happening unlike the unlucky IAF, otherwise we are up for another humiliation.
Only saving grace is we are inducting Apache,ALH-Rudra,LCH in piecemeal but consistent manner and have a large number of shoulder fired ATGMs to make life hell for ang advancing Tank column.
Also another order of K-9 SPH is logical to ambush and destroy Enemy columns from greater distances before they can get a lock on ours.

PS: We should approach them for Afghanit APS for our MBTs and IFVs.

 

[randomradio]

So trophy which is the best world has to offer, is not good enough for army ?
Why it sounds so familier. LOL.
Indian Army’s requirements are quite stupid most of the times like those Multi trigger rifles in 70s or multibarrel rifle with bayonet, carrying handle and other ww1 era stuff in, last decade tender.

Not really. The T-90 may not be able to use all the options Trophy offers. Space, power, cooling, maintenance requirements etc could be vastly different.

I thing among All the major Asian countries, our MBTs are the oldest and crappiest. These export gradeT90s and T70s are severely outgunned and out armoured by what our rivals have and inducting, in numbers. Luckily for Army there are no Tank skirmishes happening unlike the unlucky IAF, otherwise we are up for another humiliation.
Only saving grace is we are inducting Apache,ALH-Rudra,LCH in piecemeal but consistently and have a large number of shoulder fired ATGMs to make life hell for ang advancing Tank column.
Also another order of K-9 SPH is logical to ambush and destroy Enemy columns from greater distances before they can get a lock on ours.

PS: We should approach them for Afghanit APS for our MBTs and IFVs.

Not really. The T-90s may be outgunned by more advanced tanks today, but it still has a lot to offer against the level of enemy we are facing. Let's not forget that the Pakistanis are using even more older tanks, mostly composed of T-55 cousins. The T-90s is like a hot knife through Pakistani butter.

The only tanks that are a match for the T-90 would be the T-80UD and the latest VT-4. Even assuming the VT-4 is an upgrade over the T-90, what's opposite them will be the two Arjun brigades we plan to operate.

Anyway there's a pretty good chance the IAF will take out PA armour long before they make contact with IA armour.

 

[AbRaj]

Not really. The T-90 may not be able to use all the options Trophy offers. Space, power, cooling, maintenance requirements etc could be vastly different.

But it was rejected for Arjun as far as I remember.

Not really. The T-90s may be outgunned by more advanced tanks today, but it still has a lot to offer against the level of enemy we are facing. Let's not forget that the Pakistanis are using even more older tanks, mostly composed of T-55 cousins. The T-90s is like a hot knife through Pakistani butter.

Doesn’t matter. T90S will face VT4 and AKs and UDs and will get blown up.
I don’t believe war will go that long for PA to exhaust alm its new gen and up armed tanks. While IA will start taking hits from day one coz they don’t have anything to blunt the attack.
T55s will not have to fight war in all probability even by Indian War concept.

The only tanks that are a match for the T-90 would be the T-80UD and the latest VT-4. Even assuming the VT-4 is an upgrade over the T-90, what's opposite them will be the two Arjun brigades we plan to operate.

Even Arjun is out gunned due to DRDOs inability to develop good armour piercing round. And its armour too have deficiencies. So vulnerable on both accounts. Army don’t want Arjuns allegedly because they don’t have “carrying handle” to lug them across ricketty bridges WW2 style.

Anyway there's a pretty good chance the IAF will take out PA armour long before they make contact with IA armour.

Yes they have to, otherwise it will not lost longer. But then enemy too knows it very well. So PA and PAF (and China) will hit IAF assets using stingers and other AAMs.

 

[randomradio]

But it was rejected for Arjun as far as I remember.

For both actually.

I don’t believe war will go that long for PA to exhaust alm its new gen and up armed tanks. While IA will start taking hits from day one coz they don’t have anything to blunt the attack.
T55s will not have to fight war in all probability even by Indian War concept.

This is completely opposite from what the IA believes. Anyway, the PA will have to use all their tanks to fight India. Since we will be the attacking force, we decide what we attack first.

Even Arjun is out gunned due to DRDOs inability to develop good armour piercing round. And its armour too have deficiencies. So vulnerable on both accounts. Army don’t want Arjuns allegedly because they don’t have “carrying handle” to lug them across ricketty bridges WW2 style.

Arjun doesn't need to cross into Pak, they only need to stay inside India and defend. Even if they do cross into Pakistan, it will be as part of an IBG meant for Cold Start, not for a full invasion. And since this is in the desert sector, they don't need to cross water bodies. Anyway, the bridge layers were a problem 20 years ago, new bridge layers can handle Arjun.

Plus a new tank round has been made for the Arjun that's equivalent to NATO rounds.

 

[AbRaj]

For both actually.

So Arjun too has space/power constraints ?
How come other smaller tanks with similar or lower power pack are having APS ?
Or its just another “futuristic demand” of army which no one can possibly fulfill. Case in point two barrels, two triggers in an assault rifle with less than 4.5 kg wt on full load.

This is completely opposite from what the IA believes. Anyway, the PA will have to use all their tanks to fight India. Since we will be the attacking force, we decide what we attack first.

Well We tend to believes unrealistically and often pay the price for it later on ground.
Its almost certain that PA will fight on its own term( considering Pakistan have huge advantage in Assymetric Warefare in form of huge terror infrastructure both domestically and in Afghanistan. We will be forced to respond on their terms like all the previous wars.
Assuming conditions too much (favourabley) will be disastrous for us.

Arjun doesn't need to cross into Pak, they only need to stay inside India and defend. Even if they do cross into Pakistan, it will be as part of an IBG meant for Cold Start, not for a full invasion.

So T90S then ? Even better for PA tanks then.
For the record T90S uses older and outdated Sagem S-15 NVDs(half of them have No NVD to begin with), No panoramic commander sights, no Hunter killer capability and a problematic auto loader .

Arjun don’t have these shortcomings , but then IA never bothered about these things.
All they want is a tank that can fly and reach Law-hore in one hour and so light that it can cross foot overpasses and its tires can be changed by the crews by tilting it

And since this is in the desert sector, they don't need to cross water bodies. Anyway, the bridge layers were a problem 20 years ago, new bridge layers can handle Arjun.

Isn’t that how shortaightes IA top brass used to F-up army procurements and war planning. And fun is seeing them doing it consistently in every domain be it MBT/Light tanks, IFV, SPH(K-9 is an exception though), Towed Howitzers, Small Arms and rifles you name it. IA is in shit of it own making.
And they talk about Two Front and Three front war. Almost comical.

Plus a new tank round has been made for the Arjun that's equivalent to NATO rounds.

Some good news (given army don’t discard it after doing 10 years long trials on desert, marsh,ice peaks, sea shores and who knows on moon and Mars too)

 

[Chain Smoker]

So Arjun too has space/power constraints ?
How come other smaller tanks with similar or lower power pack are having APS ?
Or its just another “futuristic demand” of army which no one can possibly fulfill. Case in point two barrels, two triggers in an assault rifle with less than 4.5 kg wt on full load.


Well We tend to believes unrealistically and often pay the price for it later on ground.
Its almost certain that PA will fight on its own term( considering Pakistan have huge advantage in Assymetric Warefare in form of huge terror infrastructure both domestically and in Afghanistan. We will be forced to respond on their terms like all the previous wars.
Assuming conditions too much (favourabley) will be disastrous for us.

So T90S then ? Even better for PA tanks then.
For the record T90S uses older and outdated Sagem S-15 NVDs(half of them have No NVD to begin with), No panoramic commander sights, no Hunter killer capability and a problematic auto loader .

Arjun don’t have these shortcomings , but then IA never bothered about these things.
All they want is a tank that can fly and reach Law-hore in one hour and so light that it can cross foot overpasses and its tires can be changed by the crews by tilting it

Isn’t that how shortaightes IA top brass used to F-up army procurements and war planning. And fun is seeing them doing it consistently in every domain be it MBT/Light tanks, IFV, SPH(K-9 is an exception though), Towed Howitzers, Small Arms and rifles you name it. IA is in shit of it own making.
And they talk about Two Front and Three front war. Almost comical.

Some good news (given army don’t discard it after doing 10 years long trials on desert, marsh,ice peaks, sea shores and who knows on moon and Mars too)

So according to u russians are stupid who are using thousands of t90 and 72 against NATO.

 

[randomradio]

So Arjun too has space/power constraints ?
How come other smaller tanks with similar or lower power pack are having APS ?
Or its just another “futuristic demand” of army which no one can possibly fulfill. Case in point two barrels, two triggers in an assault rifle with less than 4.5 kg wt on full load.

Perhaps. They are not even able to move the TI from the armour hole, I doubt they would find space to add the Trophy.

Well We tend to believes unrealistically and often pay the price for it later on ground.
Its almost certain that PA will fight on its own term( considering Pakistan have huge advantage in Assymetric Warefare in form of huge terror infrastructure both domestically and in Afghanistan. We will be forced to respond on their terms like all the previous wars.
Assuming conditions too much (favourabley) will be disastrous for us.

They are free to fight on their own terms. But the attacker decides. We have never responded on their terms.

So T90S then ? Even better for PA tanks then.
For the record T90S uses older and outdated Sagem S-15 NVDs(half of them have No NVD to begin with), No panoramic commander sights, no Hunter killer capability and a problematic auto loader .

Part of upgrades.

Arjun don’t have these shortcomings , but then IA never bothered about these things.
All they want is a tank that can fly and reach Law-hore in one hour and so light that it can cross foot overpasses and its tires can be changed by the crews by tilting it

Isn’t that how shortaightes IA top brass used to F-up army procurements and war planning. And fun is seeing them doing it consistently in every domain be it MBT/Light tanks, IFV, SPH(K-9 is an exception though), Towed Howitzers, Small Arms and rifles you name it. IA is in shit of it own making.
And they talk about Two Front and Three front war. Almost comical.

Some good news (given army don’t discard it after doing 10 years long trials on desert, marsh,ice peaks, sea shores and who knows on moon and Mars too)

You haven't understood the IA's requirements. It's the failure at a national level that we are stuck dealing with a country that should have been eliminated a long time ago. The army is only doing what they think is the best for their mission. Nothing wrong with what they are expecting. The US and Soviets have had more procurement failures in a single year than the IA has had in its entire existence. The only difference is they had the money to run multiple programs at once to make up for their failures, we don't.

 

[AbRaj]

So according to u russians are stupid who are using thousands of t90 and 72 against NATO.

Indian T90 s # Russian varints
India# Russia
You#Me

 

[AbRaj]

in protection is less than this margin over these areas [74][75]

Variants[edit]​

T-90A Main Battle Tank competing in the 2013 Tank Biathlon.

T-90A on the streets of Moscow.

T-90S "Bhishma" of the Indian Army

T-90SM Main Battle Tank at the 2013 Russian Arms Expo.

• T-90 – The first production version. Object 188 (1989), production 1992.[73]
  • T-90K – Commander's version of the T-90, with additional communication (R-163-50K station) and navigation equipment (TNA-4-3).[76][77]
  • T-90A – Russian army version with welded turret, V-92S2 engine and ESSA thermal viewer. Sometimes called T-90 Vladimir, in honor of its chief designer Vladimir Potkin.[78]
  • T-90AK – Command version of T-90A.
  • T-90AM - (Object 188AM) - a project to modernize the main tank T-90A. A new automatic loader and an upgraded 2A46M-5 cannon were installed, as well as a remotely controlled 7.62-mm anti-aircraft gun "UDP T05BV-1". New engine and automatic transmission V-92S2F with 1130 hp. The exhaust system is located in the fenders to reduce the hull temperature and the tank's visibility for IR guidance systems. Previous diesel engines V-46, V-84 and V-92 with a separate mechanical transmission, the new engine is made in a single unified unit with an automatic transmission. A new tower has been installed, equipped with the "Kalina" Fire control system with an integrated combat information and control system. The commander's panoramic sight contains a two-plane independent stabilization for view of the battlefield, new laser rangefinder, television and thermal imaging channels. Installed the multi-channel sight of the operator-gunner "Sosna-U". Only the T-90AM has active protection. It partially uses elements of the "Afghanit" active protection complex, which is fully assembled on the future T-14 tank. In the export version of T-90AM - T-90SM - active protection "Arena-E KAZ" (KAZ (CAP) - Complex of active protection) could be installed by request of the customer.[79][80]
  • T-90M – it is the latest version of the T-90A.[81] The main features include the modernisation of the old turret design, which is equipped with the new advanced fire control system "Kalina" (with integrated combat information and control systems), improved armor on the ammo carousel, and a new upgraded gun 2A46M-5, as well as a remote-controlled anti-aircraft gun "UDP T05BV-1". The new version also includes the Relikt ERA bricks instead of the Kontakt-5 ERA bricks.[82] Other improvements include a new 1130 hp V-92S2F[83] engine, an enhanced environmental control system, and satellite navigation systems.
• T-90S – Export version of the T-90, later adopted by the Russian Armed Forces as the T-90A. These tanks were made by Uralvagonzavod and were updated with 1,000 hp (750 kW) engines made by Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant. These tanks carry a leaner version of the Shtora-1 passive/active protection system which lacks the infra-red dazzlers carried on the turret. Sometimes called T-90C (Cyrillic letter es looks like a Latin c). These were initially supplied with cast turrets of the early T-90, and when stocks were depleted, new, welded turrets were fabricated.
  • T-90SK – Commander's version of the T-90S, with additional communication and navigation equipment. It differs in radio and navigation equipment and Ainet remote-detonation system for HEF rounds.[76][77][78]
  • T-90S "Bhishma" – modified T-90S in Indian service. India announced that they'll be made in India until 2028.[84]
• T-90SM (T-90S Modernized) – Export variant of T-90AM ("Proryv-2") 2013 year, first time showed in Abu Dhabi IDEX-2013.[85] It is equipped with a 1,130 hp engine, a PNM Sosna-U gunner sight,[86] a UDP T05BV-1 RWS with a 7.62 mm machine gun, GLONASS, inertial navigation systems, new Relikt explosive reactive armour (ERA) that covers more of the tank,[87] and a steering wheel.[88][89][90] A new removable turret bustle is included, which provides storage for eight additional rounds. The T-90SM is ready for serial production.[91] 4 video cameras provide a 360° view of the environment, while the tank is more connected to command.[92] The T-90SM has an upgraded thermal imager that can detect tanks over 3300 meters away.
• T-90MS - Export variant of T-90M (Proryv-3) 2019 year.[93]

Variants

• BREM-1M: Armoured recovery vehicle.
• IMR-3M: Combat engineer vehicle.
• MTU-90: Bridge layer tank with MLC50 bridge.
• BMR-3M: Mine clearing vehicle.
• MTU-2020: Bridge layer tank based on the T-90A whose chassis has been extended, along with the addition of a road wheel.[94]
• UBIM (Universal Armored Engineering Vehicle): It was unveiled at the Army-2018 international arms show.[95]

Russian t90

Indian t90

And now they have thease

 

[Hydra]

I hope we don't go for the 125. L/55 is superior gun.

NATO rounds are superior to Russian one, in order to compensate that superiority they went to 125mm. Its better we should stick to NATO standard than Russian one.

 

[randomradio]

Indian T90 s # Russian varints
India# Russia
You#Me

That's subjective. Since Russia is the actual maker of the tank, it's obvious they will be ahead in the development of the tank. But we are making upgrades more suitable for our needs. Like a 1200-1500HP modular engine, domestic electronics and APS etc.

The only thing special about the Russian T-90M that's relevant to us is its new gun. And it's on offer to India for the T-90's upgrade, as long as the IA decided to go for it. But it may not be necessary.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Anyway there's a pretty good chance the IAF will take out PA armour long before they make contact with IA armour.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

IAF ops agains PAF - surge, bang, get banged, with the remaining aircraft have a field day with Pak Army till PLAAF begins to start tickling you.

 

[thinkingcap81]

This is completely opposite from what the IA believes. Anyway, the PA will have to use all their tanks to fight India. Since we will be the attacking force, we decide what we attack first.

Arjun doesn't need to cross into Pak, they only need to stay inside India and defend. Even if they do cross into Pakistan, it will be as part of an IBG meant for Cold Start, not for a full invasion. And since this is in the desert sector, they don't need to cross water bodies. Anyway, the bridge layers were a problem 20 years ago, new bridge layers can handle Arjun.

Plus a new tank round has been made for the Arjun that's equivalent to NATO rounds.

Probably you are referring to a full fledged war. We're not looking for that, just some lightening strikes. Until our offensive forces, in all spectrums, are so overwhelming that even the threat of a war is enough for the Pak generals to stop all their anti-India activities, nothing is going to change.

 

[randomradio]

Probably you are referring to a full fledged war. We're not looking for that, just some lightening strikes. Until our offensive forces, in all spectrums, are so overwhelming that even the threat of a war is enough for the Pak generals to stop all their anti-India activities, nothing is going to change.

We already have that. Hence the brass claiming that they are not worried about Pak anymore.

 

[AbRaj]

That's subjective. Since Russia is the actual maker of the tank, it's obvious they will be ahead in the development of the tank. But we are making upgrades more suitable for our needs. Like a 1200-1500HP modular engine, domestic electronics and APS etc.

The only thing special about the Russian T-90M that's relevant to us is its new gun. And it's on offer to India for the T-90's upgrade, as long as the IA decided to go for it. But it may not be necessary.

Russia unlike us frequently/promptly upgrades their tank as jets depending on the availability and threat perception. while we do decades of Babugiri/Bargaining and end up with obsolete systems which are otherwise very potent like Su30, T90,Mig21,T72,Kilos etc.

In our case Importing everything from Foreign OEM doesnt help either due to us being very price conscious.
Basic Su30 upgrades are avilable since decades and so does upgrades of T90s. just look at how heavily armored the Russian T90 is and how bare bone and rudimentary is ours and I highly doubt even the Frontal armour can take even a single BTA4/DTW125 the VT4 can fire. It will be a slaughter.

Interestingly we were about to buy equivalent APFSDS from IWI subsidiary. But some mysterious Scandal prompted Saint Antony to scuttle the entire deal. Since then No deal was even discussed as Army top Babus dont care much about what enemies are bringing in. They are too busy in Eighth pay grade, OROP and thing like that which are much more important for their future

 

[randomradio]

Russia unlike us frequently/promptly upgrades their tank as jets depending on the availability and threat perception. while we do decades of Babugiri/Bargaining and end up with obsolete systems which are otherwise very potent like Su30, T90,Mig21,T72,Kilos etc.

In our case Importing everything from Foreign OEM doesnt help either due to us being very price conscious.
Basic Su30 upgrades are avilable since decades and so does upgrades of T90s. just look at how heavily armored the Russian T90 is and how bare bone and rudimentary is ours and I highly doubt even the Frontal armour can take even a single BTA4/DTW125 the VT4 can fire. It will be a slaughter.

Interestingly we were about to buy equivalent APFSDS from IWI subsidiary. But some mysterious Scandal prompted Saint Antony to scuttle the entire deal. Since then No deal was even discussed as Army top Babus dont care much about what enemies are bringing in. They are too busy in Eighth pay grade, OROP and thing like that which are much more important for their future

Our upgrade frequency is similar to the Russians. The Russians inducted their T-90s in the 90s, whereas we inducted ours in the 2000s. So it's natural they will upgrade before we do. Otoh, we are going to upgrade our Su-30s long before they will upgrade theirs. So we are ahead in this area. It's all about who inducts first.