Beating the Indian Navy without going broke
- Thread starter Star Wars
- Start date
How much better? From big negative to less negative percentage?
Even thinking of it is blasphemy considering current state of PN.
I hereby take my chance to brag a bit.
Unlike many of you i myself has seen one of the world's biggest nuclear powered aircraft carrier the USS Independence on her last voyage.
Their port entry was impressive.. Four helicopters on four corners of the ship, flying armed and watching everyone. Then two destroyers before her and two after. Then on-board Jets and other weapons i could not see.
I was young at the time , so didnt pay much attention to weaponery but concentrated on the American chicks onboard,
Did manage to take one out for dinner.
On topic .
Loss of any ship is loss of naval power, and aircraft carriers are like floating airbase and cruise msissile base. Sinking an aircraft carrier gets you naval and air supremacy at the same time.
True, Sinking a carrier would be a big blow to both naval power and the psyche of those fighting the Pakistan Navy at sea. I honestly don't see How PN right now will be able fight the IN, unless the Chinese decide to give you free access to their systems. Facing a Mig-29k carrier wing, + AWACS, + satellites, +the squadrons of Sukhoi's based in Gujarat+ AWACS and the formidable air defences of the CBG itself.
I'm no expert, but Pakistan's best bet is a formidable submarine force and at least 3 Dedicated Naval squadrons and maybe 100s of missiles hoping at least some will get through the layered CBG and costal defences..
By Supremacy, if you mean the ability to resist a blockade by IN from the Gulf of Oman. I'm not so sure....
I do wonder how PN will operationalize it without extensive Chinese space and air assets. ASBM is not just the missile, its a whole eco-system of capabilities. Also China can enforce an air-dominance in the waters near its coasts, allowing its air-borne radars to function and provide real-time updates of the sea. Not to mention Chinese satellite cover over the region in which this system operates. Due to the very geography of the Arabian sea, Chinese air-borne assets can't function effectively. If India demonstrates anti-sat capability this will make things harder for China, they will not like Chinese sats being targetted by Indian ASMs during war.
China can proliferate but that will be considered as an act of war. Moreover, China needs petroleum from Arabian sea only. So, India has a leverage there. If India considers proliferation as an act of war and attacks the oil tankers towards China, Chinese economy will face hardship. You are not considering that India may start a war to ensure technology does not reach its enemy by proliferation. Entire middle east and global economy will be in a mess.
China can do only so much and not beyond a point. Selling a few equipment here and there is OK but giving away blueprint of weapons and providing indigenous manufacturing in other countries will be no different than directly waging war. Why would Chinese want that scenario? Chinese are not crazed people who are unreasonable. In the worst case scenario, it will be all out war with China, Pakistan and other countries that support them but not anything better. Containing someone by proliferation is not containing but an act of war itself
Actually, I do wonder if Indian carrier group will be deployed at all during a naval blockade of Pakistan. The role of the carrier is to provide air dominance over water. India does not need a carrier group to do that. It needs airbases in Gurajat and even Maharashtra to effectively do that. I believe during India Pakistan war, carrier groups will be chilling in Bay of Bengal, away from the action. Its Indian destroyers, missile boats and subs which will be blockading Pakistani ports. Plus, once Pakistani coastal defences are softened, it will amount to amphibious landings and multiple fronts being opened up.
There is a reason why Pakistan is not being offered a single J-20. There is no single Chinese weapon system which are offered exclusively to Pakistan. People often confuse China-Pakistan with US-Britain, it is more like US-Turkey. China will sell a lot of weapons to Pakistan, leaving only the crucial ones. CIA is still quite active in Pakistan, if I were China, I would rather be bothered with the leakage of sensitive ASBM technology details to US. Unless..... this was the whole purpose to begin with. In that case, India has nothing to worry about Chinese ASBM in Pakistan.
Every war strategy Pakistan ever develops is built on the basis that we have to face a far larger enemy which will outnumber us three to one. PAF knows that and so does PN. So there are plans and strategies to tackle what you mentioned. Remember , its not just numbers and better weapons which win the war, better war plans and better strategies also win the wars.
For example, why do you think PAF does not buy any large twin engine jets? Only goes for small single engine pint sized jets?
I dont know about now, but i regularly met PAF F-16 pilots back in 1995-96 and back then they had something called the "Swedish ideology".
They had plenty of fake inflatable tanks and planes and fake targets for incoming IAF onslaught.
The plan was to let the iAF go as deep inside Pakistan as they wanted and let them bomb the alleged fleets of PAF jets on the ground and annihilate (Inflatable) armoured divisions on ground. All this time pAF jets either won't fly or fly away from IAF and Pakistan will only fire anti aircraft assets.
Once IAF is low on fuel and on return journey, the PAF will take on a few not all of IAF jests in a "Pack hunting " mode and down a few and then disappear. The plan was to keep IAF busy and encourage them to fly more so that their jets start getting grounded for maintenance and hence lower in numbers and then PAF start attacking Indian targets.
Meanwhile PAF would also maintain reserve air power on remote places from where the jets could takeoff from Public highways and land back there after missions.
So there are plans in place... while we let India gloat in their delusions of supremacy, we got it all covered, or much of it .
large twin engine jets need longer runways and cannot land on Public highways. Indian Sukhoi only do Touch and go on Public highways and have never landed on one. All PAF jets can land and takeoff from Public highways and get airborne soon, while Twin engine jets need far more maintinance and longer time.
Airforce is an area in which Pakistan has historically demonstrated its mastery in past wars. Naval confrontations? Not so. Heck, Indians have demonstrated much better naval tactics in all the past battles. With better equipment and more training and a stellar record in real combat, I am not sure what PN has going for it.
India is trying hard to buy S-400 for a reason. To ensure that Pakistani airspace can be covered right from the Indian territory. They know that the enemy is quite adept at air tactics, so they want to ensure that PAF is not able to function freely even in its own airspace.
True, S-400 cannot possibly hunt every last aircraft in PAF, it can surely bring down AWACS (which PAF has inducted plentiful) and fuel tankers. Effectively, eliminating any force multipliers of PAF and rendering a number of PAF tactics useless. Loss of AWACS and Fuel tankers within its own territory will be a major morale killer for PAF.
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Pakistan navy has changed a lot and now works in conjunction with PAF . Something they did not do in any previous wars.
Also all Pakistani armed forces are far better networked now and share data in realtime. The networking started in 1977 and still ongoing. Almost all assets are used by multiple forces and share data.
About S-400, that will be taken care of when it comes. Right now its just a plan on papers.
Yaar i myself saw Iraqi naval blockage by USA during the second Gulf war and beleive me it was not easy for the Americans. Even their large naval power was not enough and they had to ask allies to contribute ships for a total blockade. Without going into too many details, the marines who came to our Vessel to check our stores were Canadians not Americans. So even the largest navy in the world could not do a watertight blockade without massive help from allies.
Completely shutting off such a large sea space is no child's play and while you may think that Indian navy is too big and easily so that, they cannot, and any attempted blockade will be only partial and Pakistan can always hit the supply ships sailing towards Indian blockading ships, and no navy can work without constant supply lines. Thats why we are investing in shore based Anti Ship cruise missiles , the 700Km Babur -II and Zarb. Remember that the blockading ships may be well protected, the supply ships wont be, and all of them will be sailing from India and well within our range.
Well then, i shall leave you with your delusions...and the pokeymon
and many of these...
Hi,
Your staff HQ prepares the drills , tactics and formations for the well meaning strategic defense, but your leadership, specifically military leadership throws all of that hard gained knowledge out of the window when it comes to actual war, and embarks on ridiculous strategy.
operation: Gibraltor, operation: Brasstacks, Operation: grandslam, Siachen and Kargil: All poorly planned and sloppily executed offensives not by my measure but by the account of multiple decorated Pakistani military dignitaries (Will provide actual references if you need).
Pakistani war planning has displayed such dearth of planning that they would embark on an strategic armored thrust into India without air cover, and then display tactical lousiness to mistake a 200 soldier platoon to be a brigade head and stop dead in its own tracks for on of the biggest Thermopylae like fiasco to go down in the history books.
Then there is the Navy, where during all out hostilities, PN just capitulated without even showing the will to fight, not to mention the PA who choose self preservation above all to go down in the books as the the largest unilateral surrender since WWII within a span of two weeks.
So there is this Staff HQ Pakistani fighting force that is extremely competent, learned, and well planned unit, but then when the hostilities start, it is guided by ridiculous philosophies like 1 muslim=10 (operation Gibraltar), Security of the East lies in the West (1971) and then bleeding by thousand cuts (asymmetry 1989 to present)
Thus as far as IN vs PN goes, Pakistan has the ability to leverage Chinese systems to put up some fight, but it's current modernization plan doesn't seem to even put it in the same league as the Indian Coast guard.
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Agree.
CBG wont be used to strike pakistan shore areas, rather it would be more utilized to create a blockade on sea routes.
Well, India has out-scaled Pakistan in every known metric in defence. Military spending, equipment, diversity of equipment, training you name it!
BTW, what makes you think India is not working on network-centric warfare and integration of commands and co-ordination of forces?
Of-course, real war is well, real and it is hard for any on-paper comparison to completely predict it, but what makes you think that PN will be able to defeat an enemy which has traditionally been able to crush it completely and is better equipped than ever!
I sense a weird kind of 'We will do it somehow!' from you which is typical of Pakistani. And then Pakistani say India cannot pull a Pakistan against China!
Somehow Pakistani suffer from a weird and irrational sense of supremacy which has no grounding in reality.
@safriz Recently the arguments have purely shifted from offensive to defensive strategy and it seems like being able to hold on Indian aggression is now considered as victory in Pak strategist quarters. How are you going to free Kashmir if India do not respond to table talk or UN keeps mum? Kashmiris are on their own to die for Pak wishes? @Azlan Haider
Why we need 100% blockade? The idea is to hamper pak supply chains and thus creating discomfort in Pak war capabilities, also impacting day to day public business. Even 50-70% would do wonders.
Why we need 100% blockade? The idea is to hamper pak supply chains and thus creating discomfort in Pak war capabilities, also impacting day to day public business. Even 50-70% would do wonders.
No offence meant. But the PN supremacy and PAF supremacy is a joke. The ICG should have been compared to give any sort of 'supremacy' for the PN. Any asset attacking the Indian CBG, will need to be the best that the PN will throw. And once, it launches thats the last time it will launch. Because, the retaliation will be heavy.
The author assumes that the Indian carrier will be the prime target. Shows the utter lack of knowledge of IN tactics. The offensive weaponry is carried by the Indian destroyers and smaller frigates. All these are today networked. As in operationally networked. Not will be. The only thing, today, the IN is worried about are your subs. And hence the effort to boost the ASW forces and working with the Americans to hone our skills.
The PN doing anything is like lal topi talking about ghosts helping on the battlefield.
I will say that it creates a peaceful stalemate between the two countries at least for the time being. Pakistani military feels victory in ensuring that India does not attack Pakistan and call it a victory and Indian are assured that Pakistani won't attack India and call that a victory.
If Indian government has an ounce of wisdom, they will start changing the demographics of Kashmir. Bring in Jatts from Hariyana and Delhi, Sikhs from Punjab, UPites from UP and Bihar and give them false documentation to prove that they were Kashmiri to being with. Settle 10-20 million of such people and allow them to vote in Kashmiri elections. Fill all the administrative positions, police, health-care, education etc with such people. Ensure that most of Kashmiri kids are educated in boarding schools, away from their parents and are kept busy in sports, studies, heck even foreign educational trips if it comes to it. Those who are too keen in Kashmiri 'cause' should be given free narcotics.
Give them absolute protection by Army and in 10-12 years dissolve Article 35 completely ofcourse with the consent of 'Kashmiris'. Heck hold a plebiscite as well for the heck of it. With proper 'support' of 'UN' : mainly French and Israeli forces providing security during that time under the aegis of UNSC peacekeeping forces.