Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

One more tantalising sign that the current Brahmos block is at the 450 km ER version mach 3.5 stage and just like drdo showed the LR version which is 800km and mach 5 is being worked on. Perhaps this is why PJ-10 is so busy as of now and like habit they are going mk1 mk2 style wrt the core missile propulsion and enabling tech (seeker, control guidance algo, electronics, thermal battery, on board cooling etc) wise.
NG version/ALARM-N is mainly export oriented hence excused.
Pic from recent presentation

View attachment 40695

There are two extended range versions. One is 450 km at mach 3.2. The other increases speed to mach 4.5, and the increased speed adds another 50 km to the 450 km version.

LR apparently remains at mach 3.2.

There's another version with 1500 km range.

India now working on 1,500-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile - Federation of Indian Industry

India on November 24 began a series of tests of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, even as work goes on to extend its range. According to government officials, India is now working on a 1,500-km range version of the system that can be launched from land, water or air. BrahMos, the only...

www.fii.org.in

 

[randomradio]

I always thought the focus with the Brahmos NG was to keep the range at 290 km (to keep exports options open) & instead increase speed.

It was advertised before our entry into MTCR. We do not know if the range will be extended post entry or if future versions will be made with extended range. It's possible the delays in design cater to a range extension.

For exports, the warhead will be timed to explode when it breaches the range limit, so that won't matter.

 

[marich01]

There are two extended range versions. One is 450 km at mach 3.2. The other increases speed to mach 4.5, and the increased speed adds another 50 km to the 450 km version.

LR apparently remains at mach 3.2.

There's another version with 1500 km range.

India now working on 1,500-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile - Federation of Indian Industry

India on November 24 began a series of tests of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, even as work goes on to extend its range. According to government officials, India is now working on a 1,500-km range version of the system that can be launched from land, water or air. BrahMos, the only...

www.fii.org.in

I have very little other data on hand but I suspect those 2 are surface launch and air launched versions of this ER Brahmos. So while the max speed figure can vary, actual development stage wise we are yet to see the LR version which is supposed to be the long range Brahmos.
Not rebuking the other articles, the drdo side development curve seems well set.

 

[randomradio]

I have very little other data on hand but I suspect those 2 are surface launch and air launched versions of this ER Brahmos. So while the max speed figure can vary, actual development stage wise we are yet to see the LR version which is supposed to be the long range Brahmos.
Not rebuking the other articles, the drdo side development curve seems well set.

I think the lack of engine ToT means we are stuck with the older motor, so the same speed, what with Russia not developing a new one. AL-31FP all over again.

NG comes with a new motor, so that's fine.

 

[marich01]

I think the lack of engine ToT means we are stuck with the older motor, so the same speed, what with Russia not developing a new one. AL-31FP all over again.

NG comes with a new motor, so that's fine.

We do not need the ramjet tot , the LR version will be modified with likely our own ramjet if it is to have ramjet, that scope is there. Most likely the upgraded LR version will get localised ramjet since they are de-risking major items supply chain.

Now if you are able to scale down and optimise a large article like older Onyx into such a compact package as NG, this creates a baseline for us. This baseline should also be scalable and fed into the LR version that is ramjet being workable in the region of mach 4-6, bigger fuel tank by expanding NG baseline. NG is sub 600 mm, scaling that up to same 600mm with uprated spec can give stable LR version in future.

yet to see the 1500km touted upgrade being a serious prospect from DRDO side and the uniqueness of Onyx/Brahmos would somewhat get lost if expanded to such range. Maybe that's for the scramjet ?

 

[randomradio]

We do not need the ramjet tot , the LR version will be modified with likely our own ramjet if it is to have ramjet, that scope is there. Most likely the upgraded LR version will get localised ramjet since they are de-risking major items supply chain.

Now if you are able to scale down and optimise a large article like older Onyx into such a compact package as NG, this creates a baseline for us. This baseline should also be scalable and fed into the LR version that is ramjet being workable in the region of mach 4-6, bigger fuel tank by expanding NG baseline. NG is sub 600 mm, scaling that up to same 600mm with uprated spec can give stable LR version in future.

yet to see the 1500km touted upgrade being a serious prospect from DRDO side and the uniqueness of Onyx/Brahmos would somewhat get lost if expanded to such range. Maybe that's for the scramjet ?

I'm not sure about an Indian ramjet on Brahmos. It will require us sharing such details with the Russians and would have been public knowledge by now.

NG is being made for the airborne role, so it's unlikely to get bigger than what it already is.

Brahmos-1 potential was always 600 km using its base design. That has been increased to 800 km without changes to the airframe. And the 1500 km will see a lengthened airframe. The Oniks-M also comes with 800 km range.

So the 400, 450, and 500 km versions along with the 800 km version will see the same 4T motor. Let's hope the 800 km version has been upgraded to mach 4.5, although I believe it won't be done. So I don't see the 1500 km version changing things midway. NG can potentially carry an Indian motor, but there's no public news about it, and I don't think it will work out very well kicking Russian participation out entirely from the JV. The Russians will prevent it too, they prefer to supply their own 2T motor.

 

[aditya g]

One more tantalising sign that the current Brahmos block is at the 450 km ER version mach 3.5 stage and just like drdo showed the LR version which is 800km and mach 5 is being worked on. Perhaps this is why PJ-10 is so busy as of now and like habit they are going mk1 mk2 style wrt the core missile propulsion and enabling tech (seeker, control guidance algo, electronics, thermal battery, on board cooling etc) wise.
NG version/ALARM-N is mainly export oriented hence excused.
Pic from recent presentation

View attachment 40695

I am confused - why dont we see any "Sea to Land" brahmos here?

 

[marich01]

I'm not sure about an Indian ramjet on Brahmos. It will require us sharing such details with the Russians and would have been public knowledge by now.

NG is being made for the airborne role, so it's unlikely to get bigger than what it already is.

Why so ? certification can be done with CEMILAC RCMA Hyderabad easily without NPOM involvement since Rus are not buying themselves. If Rus had bought then maybe NPOM would have needed one for that, for raw materials GOST is standard practice in this jv too. So the base is covered for Indian use , and possibly export market as well except Russia.

NG is sort of a compact version on the original with same form factor, so if you have already created a miniaturisation, you can easily also scale it up from the combustor and electronics level itself. Then add suitable fuel carriage capacity, unlike the scramjet where the fuel itself is playing the coolant role , here in ramjet mode you may not need that as combustor temp is within tolerance hence lesser fuel for longer flight time. So the option is there where you can extend flight time and get further extended long range.

 

[randomradio]

Why so ? certification can be done with CEMILAC RCMA Hyderabad easily without NPOM involvement since Rus are not buying themselves. If Rus had bought then maybe NPOM would have needed one for that, for raw materials GOST is standard practice in this jv too. So the base is covered for Indian use , and possibly export market as well except Russia.

Political. The IP is co-owned which means the Russians will have to sign-off on it, and they are not going to. If we want to use our own ramjet, it's going to have to be on new Indian designs, like LRLACM and STAR. We can always design a Brahmos++ with a 500 kg warhead, if necessary.

NG is sort of a compact version on the original with same form factor, so if you have already created a miniaturisation, you can easily also scale it up from the combustor and electronics level itself. Then add suitable fuel carriage capacity, unlike the scramjet where the fuel itself is playing the coolant role , here in ramjet mode you may not need that as combustor temp is within tolerance hence lesser fuel for longer flight time. So the option is there where you can extend flight time and get further extended long range.

At 6m long, it's already at the limit of ground clearance for takeoff and landing when on wings. Increasing the length will push it out of the inventory of most jets. So the best they can do is play around with internal layout, smaller electronics, better fuel quality, and motor efficiency if they want more range.

 

[marich01]

Political. The IP is co-owned which means the Russians will have to sign-off on it, and they are not going to. If we want to use our own ramjet, it's going to have to be on new Indian designs, like LRLACM and STAR. We can always design a Brahmos++ with a 500 kg warhead, if necessary.

That won't be a problem much imo, given at this point this JV is sort of a stock option for them else they would have raised some concern when we went on with making the core items that were Rus responsibility ie seeker fuel ramjet etc. They will take 50% of the profit generated and that's it.

At 6m long, it's already at the limit of ground clearance for takeoff and landing when on wings. Increasing the length will push it out of the inventory of most jets. So the best they can do is play around with internal layout, smaller electronics, better fuel quality, and motor efficiency if they want more range.

By scaling up I mean reorganising the old Brahmos internally to hold enough fuel for 800km or more ranges without much redsign of the airframe. I don't think they change anything in the motor itself since BAPL place order for the full motor as high lead time part and fit in without any mod. This will be possible with the new ramjet they are making, easier to augment fuel feed flow and flow rate etc.

 

[randomradio]

That won't be a problem much imo, given at this point this JV is sort of a stock option for them else they would have raised some concern when we went on with making the core items that were Rus responsibility ie seeker fuel ramjet etc. They will take 50% of the profit generated and that's it.

Whatever was manufactured in India was indigenized, so there was no loss to the Russians. The ramjet is manufactured by the Russians, so indigenizing that will take away their business. That's already the excuse they gave to prevent ToT, so there's no way they will accept to give up complete control over the Brahmos.

By scaling up I mean reorganising the old Brahmos internally to hold enough fuel for 800km or more ranges without much redsign of the airframe. I don't think they change anything in the motor itself since BAPL place order for the full motor as high lead time part and fit in without any mod. This will be possible with the new ramjet they are making, easier to augment fuel feed flow and flow rate etc.

Yeah, I agree with that. It's the 1500 km version Brahmos-1 that will be lengthened.

 

[marich01]

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/sites/default/files/inline-files/EoIfXbaSeeker17022025.pdf

 

[Gautam]

250 units of Brahmos. 2 more regiments for the Army.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1902440416827600993

https://twitter.com/x/status/1902620829336367250

 

[marich01]

Other than brahmos and the aew jets, are there any high value contracts in todays ccs ? no mention of all 8 items ?

 

[Gautam]