GTRE Kaveri Engine

[Tarun]

KAVERI- GTX

A little bit history about the kaveri engine:

1. The GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri is a turbofan project developed by the (GTRE), a lab under the DRDO
2. T the Kaveri was originally intended to power production models of the Tejas LCA fighter.
3. This was approx 202 mn $ project initially but cost escalation reach to billions
4. Later on the project was divided into two category: K9 and K 10
5. 1. K9: Will be completely indigenous with only foreign consultation and certification.
   2. K10: Will be a joint venture with a foreign partner.
6. Problems that occured:

• • Kaveri engine in its present form uses directionally solidified blade technology which is rather an old tech and it couldn’t tolerate the high temperature in its combustion chamber called “Kabini”. The solution was “single crystal blades”
  • The thrust generated was nearly 65 to 70% of what was needed.
  • Performance decay at high altitude.
  • A peculiar noise when in after burning mode..

Here comes the MMRCA deal which many think was a bad decision by the current leadership as it just bought 36 rafales. But if we look closely to the offset, it was boon to us as under the offset:

• Snecma which manufacture the Rafales M-88 core agreed to help and certify the engine in 18 months.
• DRDO has been given a virtual carte blanche to channelise offsets from the Indian Rafale deal to resurrect the Kaveri.Snecma, a partner in the Rafale programme, builds the Rafale’s twin M88 turbofan engines. Under the terms of the partnership , Snecma is working to modify, certify and integrate the Kaveri on a Light Combat Aircraft airframe before 2020.
• A later phase in the partnership will involve modifications on the Kaveri for a twin configuration on India’s AMCA fifth generation fighter concept and an altered non-reheat version for the Ghatak UCAV.
• According to DRDO chief the kaveri engine will be ready by next aero india.
• Another good new is that altitude test and flying test bed trials have been completed. Official statement of MoD in Parliament” In a written reply to the Lok Sabha in December 2016, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre had called the effort of the GTRE in developing the engine as “an attempt to mastering one of the most complex technologies”. The minister said the altitude test and flying test bed trials for the engine had been completed and other developmental problems were being addressed to make the engine flight-worthy through in-house efforts as well with assistance from abroad”.
• The engine will be first used on Tejas PV-1.Other uses will be
• • Ghatak UCAV(Dry variant or w/o afterburner)

• AMCA

• Tejas Mk2

• Also, Rolls royce has collaborated with DRDO on developing the K10 engine. This engine’s first prototype is to be expected in 12 month. The news was broken out in Aero-india 2017 in february.

HTFE Series

HTFE-25 (Hindustan Turbofan Engine 25) fired up at full thrust: HAL
Published February 25, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: **** NEWS NETWORK

HAL’s ambitions of entering the aircraft engine space are now one step closer to the reality since HAL has confirmed to **** at Aero India 2017 that HTFE-25 has achieved full thrust in trials and will be ready for first flight by next year.

HAL had unveiled the HTFE-25 (Hindustan Turbofan Engine 25) engine at Aero India 2015 has managed to keep the program on schedule to meet its internal deadline of 2018.

HTFE-25 designed and pitched to power trainer aircraft and business jets in the twin engine configuration will be operational by end of 2018 and HAL plans to use HAL owned Hawk I updated aircraft trainer which has recently rolled out just before Aero India 2017 has a testbed for the new engine.

HTFE-25 is a low bypass twin spool mixed flow turbofan engine with wide chord fan blades, sports a high-efficiency compressor and advanced combustor in 25 kN thrust class which is 1,730mm long, 590mm in diameter and weighs 350 kg.

HTFE-25 will see service in long-delayed HJT-36 Sitara subsonic intermediate jet trainer aircraft which are currently powered by Russian-supplied Saturn AL-55I turbofan engines developing 17.27 kN Thrust.

HTFE-25 is being developed as a fully in-house effort funded by HAL and now with success of HTFE-25, HAL is now proposing to develop new HTFE-35-40 engine using a modified core to develop 35-40 kN Thrust which can replace Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour engines in Indian Air force’s Jaguar aircraft.

IAF had selected Honeywell’s F125IN Turbofans engines which develop 36.0 kN of thrust under Jaguar Re-engine Plan but Government is yet to place orders for supply of 270 engines even though India’s Jaguars have become overweight and underpowered because of avionics and systems upgrades.

AERO INDIA 2017: HTFE-25 (Hindustan Turbofan Engine 25) fired up at full thrust: HAL - Indian Defence Research Wing

 

[Shashank]

I was not aware that Russia is willing to be involved in Kaveri . I feel this article is copied from a Spanish article and somehow translator did a sloppy job and messed up "willing to be involved" to "is involved" .

Russia Helping India Complete Kaveri Engine Project: Rosoboronexport

An Indo-Russian project to modify India’s Kaveri Jet engine (presumably for the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter aircraft) is about to be completed.

“One of the most vivid illustrations (In Indo-Russian scientific partnership) is the KAVERI Indian aircraft engine. We have been involved in its development, modification and trials. The project is about to be over soon,” Alexander Mikheev, Director General of Rosoboronexport said in a statement today.

JSC Rosoboronexport pursues active cooperation with its foreign partners in the field of joint research and development works, the statement said adding that at present, the majority of company’s joint R&D projects are with India and China. The projects focus on cooperation in the field of space, naval, air defense and army equipment, as well as other hi-tech projects.

“At present Rosoboronexport and Russia’s strategic partners are running over 200 R&D projects, whose number increases with every passing year. The growth dynamics continues to be positive. For instance, the number of such projects had not exceeded 100 until 2014”, - Alexander Mikheev, Director General of Rosoboronexport further said in the statement.

Defenseworld.net comment: The information that Russia is collaborating with India on the Kaveri engine is indeed interesting.

The Kaveri engine, developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) was originally meant to power India’s home-made fighter jets but the project was put on the back-burner as it failed to meet deadlines.

Some media reports said that India is currently holding talks with the French company, Safran to explore the possibility to develop a 125kN thrust Class engine to replace current 123 kN Thrust Class AL-31FP turbofan engines developed by Salyut-HAL.

Russian companies had also offered India its 142 kN thrust class AL-41F1S turbofan engines used in the Su-35 to replace current AL-31F turbofan engines, various reports said but the response of the Indian side was not known.

 

[Nick]

I was not aware that Russia is involved in Kaveri as well.

Russia Helping India Complete Kaveri Engine Project: Rosoboronexport

View attachment 448

An Indo-Russian project to modify India’s Kaveri Jet engine (presumably for the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter aircraft) is about to be completed.

“One of the most vivid illustrations (In Indo-Russian scientific partnership) is the KAVERI Indian aircraft engine. We have been involved in its development, modification and trials. The project is about to be over soon,” Alexander Mikheev, Director General of Rosoboronexport said in a statement today.

JSC Rosoboronexport pursues active cooperation with its foreign partners in the field of joint research and development works, the statement said adding that at present, the majority of company’s joint R&D projects are with India and China. The projects focus on cooperation in the field of space, naval, air defense and army equipment, as well as other hi-tech projects.

“At present Rosoboronexport and Russia’s strategic partners are running over 200 R&D projects, whose number increases with every passing year. The growth dynamics continues to be positive. For instance, the number of such projects had not exceeded 100 until 2014”, - Alexander Mikheev, Director General of Rosoboronexport further said in the statement.

Defenseworld.net comment: The information that Russia is collaborating with India on the Kaveri engine is indeed interesting.

The Kaveri engine, developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) was originally meant to power India’s home-made fighter jets but the project was put on the back-burner as it failed to meet deadlines.

Some media reports said that India is currently holding talks with the French company, Safran to explore the possibility to develop a 125kN thrust Class engine to replace current 123 kN Thrust Class AL-31FP turbofan engines developed by Salyut-HAL.

Russian companies had also offered India its 142 kN thrust class AL-41F1S turbofan engines used in the Su-35 to replace current AL-31F turbofan engines, various reports said but the response of the Indian side was not known.

Old contract. Possibly the end date of that contract is near. The article doesn't say "successfully completed" anywhere.

R&D contract between GTRE and SAFRAN has already been signed and the work has begun.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Any new update about Saffronised Kaveri?

 

[Guynextdoor]

Can someone confirm this? The Kaveri with Safran help has seen massive through according this video. 100KN+ thrust and stability in all zones

@nair @vstol Jockey @Abingdonboy @Levina @Arvind

 

[Notsuperstitious]

For a second I thought this is about the water dispute.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Can someone confirm this? The Kaveri with Safran help has seen massive through according this video. 100KN+ thrust and stability in all zones

@nair @vstol Jockey @Abingdonboy @Levina @Arvind

someone has picked up what was posted by @Aashish and converted it into a video.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Many type of Contradictory reports coming in

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Kaveri in trials was said in late 2017 itself. There is no doubt in Kaveri being prepped for certification

 

[nair]

Can someone confirm this? The Kaveri with Safran help has seen massive through according this video. 100KN+ thrust and stability in all zones

@nair @vstol Jockey @Abingdonboy @Levina @Arvind

Some info says it is indeed a massive break thru........exceeded expectations

 

[vstol Jockey]

Some info says it is indeed a massive break thru........exceeded expectations

I will believe it anyday as the engine had such a potential but we have no official word about it so far not even a news report from SAFRAN or GTRE sources.

 

[Bon Plan]

I will believe it anyday as the engine had such a potential but we have no official word about it so far not even a news report from SAFRAN or GTRE sources.

In this highly sensible field, I think no news is good news.
Maybe some very interesting news to come during prez Macron visite next month....

 

[Noodler]

I doubt they can achieve results so soon unless they simply swapped parts with the m88.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

M88 is too small. France will have to redesign a new engine. The sizeof M88 is too small compared to Kaveri. None of the parts can fit

 

[Bon Plan]

M88 is too small. France will have to redesign a new engine. The sizeof M88 is too small compared to Kaveri. None of the parts can fit

I think Safran work with the indian technology.
1) Because as said, M88 parts are not of the same dimensions than Kaveri, so not possible to just replace parts.
2) There is a intimate link between the different stages of an engine, so one again, not possible to just plug and play another part.
3) Because giving french ToT, is not so easy (politicaly, industrialy...)
4) Because I think Indian top brass prefer a good 100% indian tech engine than a very good 70% indian + 30% french combo.

As said in france : it's better to learn to someone how to fish, than to give him a fish one day.

 

[ni8mare]

L'avion de combat indien Tejas bientôt propulsé par le moteur M88 du Rafale ?

Par Michel CABIROL | 26/02/2018, 6:56 | 227 mots

La prochaine visite d'Emmanuel Macron en Inde pourrait relancer la coopération entre Safran et l'Inde pour motoriser l'avion de combat léger, le Tejas. (Crédits : © Regis Duvignau / Reuters)

Safran et l'Inde seraient près de signer un partenariat pour développer un moteur pour l'avion de combat léguer Tejas à partir du M88 qui motorise le Rafale.

Le moteur M88 bientôt à bord du Tejas? C'est dans le domaine du possible même si avec l'Inde la prudence est toujours de rigueur. Selon nos informations, les négociations entre Safran, soutenu par l'Etat français, et l'Inde (plus précisément le DRDO -Defence Research and Development Organisation) sont en très bonne voie pour motoriser l'avion de combat léger indien (LCA) avec le M88 dans le cadre du programme Kaveri qui doit être ressuscité. Elles pourraient prochainement aboutir et ce nouveau partenariat franco-indien pourrait faire l'objet d'une annonce lors du voyage d'Emmanuel Macron en Inde, le 10 mars prochain.

Motorisé de façon transitoire par General Electric (F404 F2J3), New Delhi souhaitait à l'origine développer un moteur indien. Mais les déboires dans le développement du Kaveri, qui n'a pas répondu aux besoins exprimés, a entraîné un abandon en 2014. Depuis 2016, Safran est à nouveau à la manœuvre pour proposer le M88 dans le cadre d'un transfert de technologies en vue de motoriser le Tejas ("glorieux" en sanskrit) dans la cadre du "Make in India". Cet avion de combat a été lancé dans les années 1980 par New Delhi, puis le design de l'appareil a été arrêté dans les années 1990. Enfin, le premier prototype TD-1 a effectué son premier vol le 4 janvier 2001. Le Tejas a été commande à 123 exemplaires.


The Indian fighting aircraft Tejas soon powered by the M88 engine Rafale?

Saffron and India are close to signing a partnership to develop an engine for the combat aircraft bequeath Tejas from the M88 which powers the Rafale.

The M88 engine soon aboard the Tejas? It is in the realm of the possible even if with India the prudence is always de rigueur. According to our information, the negotiations between Safran, supported by the French State, and India (more specifically DRDO -Defence Research and Development Organization) are well on their way to power the Indian light combat aircraft (LCA) with the M88 as part of the Kaveri program that needs to be resurrected. They could soon succeed and this new Franco-Indian partnership could be the subject of an announcement during Emmanuel Macron's trip to India on March 10th.


Transiently powered by General Electric (F404 F2J3), New Delhi originally wanted to develop an Indian engine. But the setbacks in the development of the Kaveri, which did not meet the needs expressed, led to an abandonment in 2014. Since 2016, Safran is again at the forefront of proposing the M88 as part of a technology transfer in motorized Tejas ("glorious" in Sanskrit) as part of "Make in India". This fighter was launched in the 1980s by New Delhi, then the design of the aircraft was stopped in the 1990s. Finally, the first prototype TD-1 made its first flight on January 4, 2001. The Tejas was ordered to 123 copies.

==============================================================================

"Safran aura le contrôle de Zodiac Aerospace début 2018" (Philippe Petitcolin, DG de Safran)


Sur le Rafale, avez-vous des espoirs d'augmenter la poussée du moteur ?

Nous n'avons pas eu de discussions à ce sujet avec la DGA (direction générale de l'armement), l'armée de l'air et la marine, qui sont les utilisateurs du Rafale. A titre personnel, je milite pour une augmentation de la poussée du moteur M88 parce que je pense qu'à terme, l'avion en aura besoin. L'avion a grossi depuis son origine - ce qui est normal - mais le moteur est resté le même. Que le moteur augmente sa puissance paraitrait être une décision normale, mais c'est aux armées et à la DGA de la prendre. Le risque serait qu'on se rende compte un jour que le moteur n'est plus assez puissant par rapport à ce qu'on veut faire faire au Rafale, et Safran va se retrouver sous la pression alors que nous aurions tout le temps aujourd'hui de lancer cette évolution.

Pourquoi ne pas commencer par une petite augmentation de la poussée du M88 ?

La poussée du M88 peut effectivement passer de 7,5 tonnes à plus de 8 tonnes - entre 8 et 8,3 tonnes - sans toucher aux entrées d'air, donc sans toucher à l'avion, simplement en travaillant sur le moteur. Soit une augmentation d'une dizaine de pourcents. Au-delà, si la DGA et les armées souhaitent aller vers des gammes de puissance supérieures, de type 9 tonnes par exemple, la modernisation du moteur passerait par une modification plus structurelle du Rafale.

N'y a-t-il pas une crainte sur les bureaux d'études ?

Il y a effectivement un problème de maintien des compétences dans le domaine du militaire qu'il ne faut pas sous-estimer. Il est réel.

Un contrat export pourrait-il être le déclencheur de cette modernisation ?

C'est peut-être possible avec l'Inde et son moteur, le Kaveri. Aujourd'hui, le M88 est fiable et répond aux besoins. Pour les armées, c'est donc toujours difficile de mettre la priorité sur une telle évolution.

Où en êtes-vous sur le Patroller ? Pourquoi ne pas le proposer à l'export ?

Le développement se passe bien. Je ne souhaite pas pour le moment que Safran le propose à l'export parce que je veux vraiment assurer une bonne fin de développement. L'armée de Terre nous a fait confiance, c'est à nous d'honorer cette confiance en livrant à l'heure le produit aux conditions que nous avons garanties. Tant que nous n'aurons pas atteint un niveau où j'estimerai que le produit est bien né, je n'autoriserai pas les équipes à faire de la prospection sur ce produit à l'export. Pourquoi ? Comme nous faisons appel plus ou moins aux mêmes équipes, je veux vraiment qu'elles se concentrent totalement sur la réalisation du contrat que nous avons signé. Bien sûr, je serais ravi d'avoir des commandes export.

"Safran will have control of Zodiac Aerospace early 2018" (Philippe Petitcolin, CEO of Safran)

On the Rafale, do you have any hopes of increasing engine thrust?

We have not had any discussions on this subject with the DGA (Directorate General of Armament), the Air Force and the Navy, which are the users of the Rafale. On a personal note, I am arguing for an increase in the thrust of the M88 engine because I think that eventually the plane will need it. The plane has grown from its origin - which is normal - but the engine has remained the same. That the engine increases its power would seem to be a normal decision, but it is up to the armies and the DGA to take it. The risk is that we realize one day that the engine is not powerful enough compared to what we want to do Rafale, and Safran will be under pressure when we have all the time today to launch this evolution.

Why not start with a small increase in the thrust of the M88?

The thrust of the M88 can actually go from 7.5 tons to more than 8 tons - between 8 and 8.3 tons - without touching the air intakes, so without touching the plane, simply by working on the engine. An increase of about ten percent. Beyond that, if the DGA and the armies wish to move towards higher power ranges, such as 9 tonnes, the modernization of the engine would require a more structural modification of the Rafale.

Is there not a fear on the design offices?

There is indeed a problem of maintenance of skills in the military field that should not be underestimated. He is real.

Could an export contract be the trigger for this modernization?

It may be possible with India and its engine, the Kaveri. Today, the M88 is reliable and meets the needs. For armies, it is always difficult to prioritize such an evolution.

Where are you on the Patroller? Why not offer it for export?

The development is going well. I do not wish at the moment that Safran proposes it for export because I really want to ensure a good end of development. The Army has trusted us, it is up to us to honor this confidence by delivering the product on time to the conditions we have guaranteed. As long as we have not reached a level where I estimate that the product is well born, I will not allow teams to explore this product for export. Why ? Since we are using more or less the same teams, I really want them to focus totally on completing the contract we signed. Of course, I would love to have export orders.

 

[Desi Lover]

Safran close to India combat jet engine deal: sources – Indian Defence Research Wing

So France is trying to sell M88 engines wrapped in Kaveri costume to India..

 

[Shashank]

Saffron close to India fight jet engine deal -sources

Paris, Feb 27 (Reuters) - France's Safran is close to an agreement to supply a version of its M88 military jet engine for India's Tejas light fight aircraft, two people close to the talks said.

The deal, if confirmed, could be finalized during a visit to India by French President Emmanuel Macron next month, they said, adding that negotiations could still be blown off course.

Safran declined how. The newspaper, which first reported the possible deal, said the M88 would be offered as part of a revived version of India's stalled Kaveri jet engine program, which was initially linked to the Tejas.

The Tejas fighter entered service in 2016, 33 years after it was approved as a foreign country - mostly Soviet-origin - aircraft.

But Hindustan Aeronautics has only recently become a part of the world. (Reporting by Tim Hepher, editing by Diane Craft)

Safran close to India combat jet engine deal -sources

 

[Desi Lover]

Full silence in defence forums after this news...

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

This is a copied news from a french news site and not a confirmed one. There is little reason to give much importance. I only see a conspiracy of belittling India by giving the credit for all technology made to foreign assistance. Since India is anyways going to get the engine done on its own, at least the public perception about Indian incompetence can be retained by such fake news