GTRE Kaveri Engine


For people who are unaware of Dr. V. K. Saraswat, his contribution to defence technology is comparable to that of Dr. Kalam. Many of the projects that you see as being tested/are successful today has many contributions from him. For example the BMD, ASAT, flush body antennas, HSTDV, various rocket fuels, electronic components and miniaturisation etc. Almost all projects he has been a part of have been successful(except maybe the Trishul SAM).
 
CSIR, DRDO to join hands to develop Saras engine

Posted: Jan 16, 2020; 07:14 AM
By Vijay Mohan
1579179080880.png

Photo: Canadian Pratt and Whitney PT6A turboprop engine

The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) will collaborate with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to produce an indigenous engine for the Saras light passenger aircraft being developed by it.

“We will be taking up the project jointly. Designing and developing an aero-engine is a highly complex task,” Dr Shekhar C Mande, Director General, CSIR, said during his visit here. “Apart from the power plants, all major systems of the Saras are indigenous,” he added.

The DRDO has been developing the Kaveri engine that was initially meant for the Light Combat Aircraft since the mid-80s, but has not been successful. While some technologies and components were validated, there were problems with some. While various types of aero-engines have been produced under licence in India, an indigenous engine has not been developed. According to some experts, developing a turboprop for a transport aircraft is less complex than developing a jet engine for a fighter.

The prototype version of the Saras, being developed by the CSIR’s National Aeronautical Laboratory (NAL), is powered by two Canadian Pratt and Whitney PT6A turboprop engines, that are not only mounted on the rear of the fuselage instead of the wings, but also face rearwards.

“The 14-passenger Saras plane, which is undergoing flight trials, will also have the capability to taxi in reverse, a feature that is not very common in aircraft. In the IAF’s inventory, the American C-17 strategic freighter and the German Dornier Do-228 have this feature. Taxiing in reverse require the jet blast from the engines to be directed forwards but it has technical, environmental and safety concerns when operating in the vicinity of aerodrome terminals or structures.

The NAL would be conducting 20 test flights of the Saras before the design is frozen and production would be undertaken by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The IAF has committed to procure 15 aircraft.

Dr Mande, who is a member of Gaganyaan National Advisory Council, the steering body for ISRO’s manned space mission, said the NAL was also deeply involved in testing an evaluating many of the launch vehicle’s components.

CSIR, DRDO to join hands to develop Saras engine

Just my two cents :

1579179459717.png


The HAL's HTSE-1200 currently under testing produces nearly twice the shaft power of a P&W PT6A that the Saras uses. The core of the HTSE can be used to make turboprop engine. Such an engine can replace the PT6A and the Honeywell Garrett TPE331-12B engine that the HTT-40 uses. Instead of duplication of efforts we should derive multiple engines out of the same core. Could be economically and industrial production wise very useful especially with the meager sums of money we spend on R&D.
 
Aerodynamics (@Aerodynamic111) Tweeted:
Former DRDO chief Dr. VK Saraswat who is also in a NITI Aayog member has been chosen to head a high-level committee which will consist of members of GTRE, DRDO, IAF, and HAL which will suggest how India can create a path for the development of an advanced 110kN class engine Aerodynamics on Twitter ( )


Interesting thread.
 
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CSIR, DRDO to join hands to develop Saras engine

Posted: Jan 16, 2020; 07:14 AM
By Vijay Mohan
View attachment 13203
Photo: Canadian Pratt and Whitney PT6A turboprop engine

The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) will collaborate with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to produce an indigenous engine for the Saras light passenger aircraft being developed by it.

“We will be taking up the project jointly. Designing and developing an aero-engine is a highly complex task,” Dr Shekhar C Mande, Director General, CSIR, said during his visit here. “Apart from the power plants, all major systems of the Saras are indigenous,” he added.

The DRDO has been developing the Kaveri engine that was initially meant for the Light Combat Aircraft since the mid-80s, but has not been successful. While some technologies and components were validated, there were problems with some. While various types of aero-engines have been produced under licence in India, an indigenous engine has not been developed. According to some experts, developing a turboprop for a transport aircraft is less complex than developing a jet engine for a fighter.

The prototype version of the Saras, being developed by the CSIR’s National Aeronautical Laboratory (NAL), is powered by two Canadian Pratt and Whitney PT6A turboprop engines, that are not only mounted on the rear of the fuselage instead of the wings, but also face rearwards.

“The 14-passenger Saras plane, which is undergoing flight trials, will also have the capability to taxi in reverse, a feature that is not very common in aircraft. In the IAF’s inventory, the American C-17 strategic freighter and the German Dornier Do-228 have this feature. Taxiing in reverse require the jet blast from the engines to be directed forwards but it has technical, environmental and safety concerns when operating in the vicinity of aerodrome terminals or structures.

The NAL would be conducting 20 test flights of the Saras before the design is frozen and production would be undertaken by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The IAF has committed to procure 15 aircraft.

Dr Mande, who is a member of Gaganyaan National Advisory Council, the steering body for ISRO’s manned space mission, said the NAL was also deeply involved in testing an evaluating many of the launch vehicle’s components.

CSIR, DRDO to join hands to develop Saras engine

Just my two cents :

View attachment 13204

The HAL's HTSE-1200 currently under testing produces nearly twice the shaft power of a P&W PT6A that the Saras uses. The core of the HTSE can be used to make turboprop engine. Such an engine can replace the PT6A and the Honeywell Garrett TPE331-12B engine that the HTT-40 uses. Instead of duplication of efforts we should derive multiple engines out of the same core. Could be economically and industrial production wise very useful especially with the meager sums of money we spend on R&D.
If there is any such plan then by default HAL is involved. Engine development ecosystem is spread across HAL, NAL and DRDO labs. Unlike other R&D, they are very co-dependent. It's up to them to take a call on to use the core or not. HAL should up the game by splitting the initial development cost. End of the day they are the ones financially securing their future with a continuous and resilient business.
 
वैमानिकी (@nileshjrane) Tweeted:
1. A very interesting event - #GTRE has invited EOI from "reputed Indian Industries/Orgs" for component mfg, module-level assy, engine level integration and delivery to GTRE of 50kN class aero-engine - presumably the dry #Kaveri version for #Ghatak #UCAV. ( )

THREAD!!
 
The use of offset in investments only makes sense in terms of expected returns. Thus, it is likely that it was Safran that refused to become the major investor in order to put the Indian State in front of its responsibility as a potential buyer.
You will only make progress in the field of jet engines the day you decide to invest enough money in its development.
 
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Namaskaar doston, mera naam hain Amiet aur swaagat hain aapka Defence Decode ke iss episode par... @Ashwin
These idiots still expect ppl to invest in capacities for production without any financial remuneration or commitment for future production. What's worse is that the numbers in the first 7-8 years are merely 20 nos. Then there's the small issue of the government approval of finance towards the jet engine (?) Or the UCAV program way back in June / July 2018 to a tune of INR 3000 Cr, only for an EOI to come out now, a full 18 months later. Further, given the financial implications & the paucity of numbers for the time period involved , the big boys like L&T or Bharat Forge may well pass the opportunity whereas the smaller boys won't be able to afford / finance the venture given the lack of commitment for future production on behalf of the MoD / GoI.Which means the entire tender may go abegging. Which may well involve further delays all in built within the system. That's how the can gets kicked down the road & we get tarikh pe tarikh.

For all the tall talk of Ghatak achieving IOC by 2023-25 , it may well be towards the end of the forthcoming decade. This is of course talk of just one vital component out of several apart from several state of the art technologies which would find it's way into the Ghatak initially and later perhaps into the AMCA, assuming Ghatak would act as a test bed for several of the technologies which would later find it's way into AMCA.


Assuming AMCA - Mk1 is a better version of the Rafale F2, with 4.5 + Gen tech, if the Ghatak achieves IOC by 2028-30 , it's anyones guess when will the IOC of AMCA Mk-2 a full 5 Gen with possible 6th gen tech as per resident optimist here will finally materialize?
 
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GTRE has issued a tender asking Indian private vendors to supply the following :
Screenshot (725).png


Spec sheet of the motor :
Screenshot (726).png


Spec sheet of the VFD :
Screenshot (727).png


Some add on equipment to go with the VFD :
Screenshot (728).png


I wonder what this is for. Kaveri engine already has her gearbox/drive system. Its not like the dry Kaveri's VFD will be different than the original. Also given Kaveri's power output the VFD would have to be rated a lot higher than the specs given above. From an old publication :
1580149157918.png


So this new VFD and induction motor must be for a smaller engine. Manik turbofan ? or something else ?
 
A post from another forum (copy and paste)
What I said above is not true and indeed laughable for those for whom, a turbofan is all about a Thrust or an Overall-Weight figure - and that too Wet thrust figure. I have seen many many in BRF who starts yelling "... yaar, issue with the Core yaar ..." etc because of Wet Thrust being not met (75KN achieved vs 81KN design-goal) - so "... naya foreign core lao Kaveri bachao ..." sloganeering.

Anyway sample this - just for one bit - the compressor:
Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3 - design goal)
Pressure Ratio: 6.42 (6.38 - design goal)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85% - design goal)
Surge Margin %: 21.6 (20% - design goal)

Now can I make it slightly interesting:
So since, F404-402 HPC Pressure Ratio - 6.0 - can I say Kaveri (with PR of 6.4) is better than F404?

BUT F404-402 FAN Pressure Ratio - 4.1 - so can I say F404 is better than Kaveri (with PR of 3.4)

BUT WAIT F404-402 has 7 stages in it's HPC - while Kaveri has 6.
(F414 has 6 - and that's one of primary design goal of 404-to-414 evolution actually).

BUT WAIT AGAIN F404-402 weighs 1,035Kg while Kaveri 1,150Kg
Kaveri must be really bad to weigh more than F404 but with 1 lesser Compressor stage.

Hmmm ... but but F404-402 SFC is 83/177 while that of Kaveri 80/207 kg/kN.h
(so is that Kaveri has better "core" than F404-402 but not-so-good afterburner system)
...
...

Completely confused whom to hand the trophy:
Let's settle this by comparing the TeT, a very popular parameter to judge a turbofan:
F404-402 has 1390deg C while Kaveri has 1455deg C - Kaveri wins finally!!!
but, wait a sec, what about the equally popular parameter - OPR
F404-402 OPR is 25 - while Kaveri's is 21.5

Tie again, is it????
... so on and so forth.

Answer of course, is much more nuanced - one-day I'll get some more b/w to write about these aspects.
 
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This deal for Engine Technology is directly
Related to MMRCA 2.0

On our part we will have to first announce
The selection of Rafale for 114 planes
Very true. But let me quote it another way.

Deal for MMRCA 1 or 2 doesn't matter is directly related to engine technology. Hand over proper technology or crown in jewel and get the deal, screw driver technology transfer not acceptable. Modi offered 36 Rafale deal as token and promised full deal on engine technology transfer. But French tried to Wrigle out and started back tracking on engine technology transfer seeing that once 36 are bought india will be forced to buy complete order of 189 Rafales and started demanding more money and making noise that India won't be able to absorb the technology.
So MMRCA2 began now French got goose into their pants and again started making noise for engine technology transfer.

Now On French part they will have to first hand over engine technology and then subsequently the selection of Rafale for 114 planes will be announced.. 😁😁

Money Speaks it's own language and makes everyone fall in line....☺️☺️