HAL Indian Multirole Helicopter (IMRH) : Updates & Discussions

[Sathya]

It appears HAL is outsourcing key design & documentation to a 3rd party. I was under the impression detailed engineering design including modeling as described in Scope of Work ( SoW) & documentation is remit of the design house or design house cum production agency in case of HAL.

Whoever is chosen for this activity can well emerge as a competitor to HAL in future. Besides I wonder how many organisations have this competency in India ? More importantly why's HAL indulging in this ? Does it lack this competency in house ?

Seems difficult to digest given they've already come up with so many iterations of the ALH & have now moved onto the NUH / LUH & LCH unless of course this activity for these hptrs were similarly outsourced too .

What're your views on it ? @Milspec

I suspect Tata will be the engineering house.
& Production will be between Tata & Hal..

They have experience with Apache body production. Probably done base work in helicopter sector.

But then they also make upgraded dornier aircraft, never got any orders.

 

[Speedster1]

It appears HAL is outsourcing key design & documentation to a 3rd party. I was under the impression detailed engineering design including modeling as described in Scope of Work ( SoW) & documentation is remit of the design house or design house cum production agency in case of HAL.

Does this mean the design could still change? I'm nitpicking but HAL seems to be following the same design template as ALH across all its new designs, be it LUH or IMRH. The only thing that's new in IMRH concept is the tailplane with its inverted tips, typically seen on AW-139 helos.

A fresh design would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Sathya]

Does this mean the design could still change? I'm nitpicking but HAL seems to be following the same design template as ALH across all its new designs, be it LUH or IMRH. The only thing that's new in IMRH concept is the tailplane with its inverted tips, typically seen on AW-139 helos.

A fresh design would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

Wrt Fighter jets we seen many naval and aair force variants.. Designing Naval first and adopting the air force variant from it.

Is there anything like that helicopters?

Or need significantly different design for specific role.

 

[Speedster1]

Wrt Fighter jets we seen many naval and aair force variants.. Designing Naval first and adopting the air force variant from it.

Is there anything like that helicopters?

Or need significantly different design for specific role.

Not really. The DBMRH variant for the IN will be smaller afaik (~10t vs 13t MTOW for the basic IMRH version). Other navy-specific mods like folding rotors, tail boom and outriggers/pylons for weapons, etc can always be added post-design.

To be clear, I'm not asking for a total overhaul. But I would have appreciated a diamond cross-section/angled fuselage, flush engine inlets and larger wheel sponsons so that the wheels could be retracted, unlike those on the Dhruv, for reduced drag. It's tiny things like these that make for a great design.

 

[Ashwin]

The DBMRH variant for the IN will be smaller afaik (~10t vs 13t MTOW for the basic IMRH version).

No, there is only a one-ton difference.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I suspect Tata will be the engineering house.
& Production will be between Tata & Hal..

They have experience with Apache body production. Probably done base work in helicopter sector.

Theoretically they can . They can do so by contracting ex HAL / ADA personnel or thanks to their recent JV with Airbus can probably get them to depute serving personnel to help them or approach former Airbus personnel.

Their experience with fuselage production will not be of much help. Detailed technical drawings & documentation is a very different kind of exercise altogether.

But then they also make upgraded dornier aircraft, never got any orders.

Is it ? Never came across this bit of news.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Does this mean the design could still change? I'm nitpicking but HAL seems to be following the same design template as ALH across all its new designs, be it LUH or IMRH. The only thing that's new in IMRH concept is the tailplane with its inverted tips, typically seen on AW-139 helos.

A fresh design would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm not tracking the project but I doubt HAL has completed CDR . Had that been the case we'd have seen news of it . So technically the design can change if there is a requirement to do so.

I raised the same issue minus the tech jargon you used with the ustads here which obviously meant no RST though that didn't prevent him from voicing his "expert"views.

I asked why we didn't go in for co axial rotor systems or incorporate stealth features etc .
Basically something off the beaten track & unconventional as opposed to the initial designs of the IMRH showcased .

According to @Milspec - ex HAL , from what I recall , stated HAL probably played safe going in for something conventional based on the ALH design which could be worked upon fast , built tested & inducted.

 

[Speedster1]

I asked why we didn't go in for co axial rotor systems or incorporate stealth features etc .
Basically something off the beaten track & unconventional as opposed to the initial designs of the IMRH showcased .

I guess we should be grateful they didn't stick with the initial concept based on the 80s-era Puma.

Co-ax rotors et all will probably be part of the next-gen helo prog. I remember reading somewhere that the IAF was interested in V-22 tilt-rotor aircraft for SOF ops. The machine is accident-prone though and costs a bomb. So in the distant future, we might see a tilt-rotor/compound helicopter from the HAL stable.

 

[Sathya]

Theoretically they can . They can do so by contracting ex HAL / ADA personnel or thanks to their recent JV with Airbus can probably get them to depute serving personnel to help them or approach former Airbus personnel.

Their experience with fuselage production will not be of much help. Detailed technical drawings & documentation is a very different kind of exercise altogether.

Is it ? Never came across this bit of news.

Tata to supply Dornier airframes to RUAG

Tata Advanced Systems Limited is expected to deliver the first of eight airframes for the Dornier 228 NG to RUAG early next year from a facility in Hyderabad in a tie-up announced in June 2014.

stratpost.com

 

[_Anonymous_]

Tata to supply Dornier airframes to RUAG

Tata Advanced Systems Limited is expected to deliver the first of eight airframes for the Dornier 228 NG to RUAG early next year from a facility in Hyderabad in a tie-up announced in June 2014.

stratpost.com

That's only a sub contract to supply the air frame in limited numbers . How will they get orders to supply the entire aircraft ?

 

[Sathya]

That's only a sub contract to supply the air frame in limited numbers . How will they get orders to supply the entire aircraft ?

Thought India will move onto NG version, but it didn't. Just like am thinking Tata will grow in helicopter business.

 

[Milspec]

I'm not tracking the project but I doubt HAL has completed CDR . Had that been the case we'd have seen news of it . So technically the design can change if there is a requirement to do so.

I raised the same issue minus the tech jargon you used with the ustads here which obviously meant no RST though that didn't prevent him from voicing his "expert"views.

I asked why we didn't go in for co axial rotor systems or incorporate stealth features etc .
Basically something off the beaten track & unconventional as opposed to the initial designs of the IMRH showcased .

According to @Milspec - ex HAL , from what I recall , stated HAL probably played safe going in for something conventional based on the ALH design which could be worked upon fast , built tested & inducted.

Common chassis design, this is very common practice in the helicopter industry.

 

[Milspec]

It appears HAL is outsourcing key design & documentation to a 3rd party. I was under the impression detailed engineering design including modeling as described in Scope of Work ( SoW) & documentation is remit of the design house or design house cum production agency in case of HAL.

Whoever is chosen for this activity can well emerge as a competitor to HAL in future. Besides I wonder how many organisations have this competency in India ? More importantly why's HAL indulging in this ? Does it lack this competency in house ?

Seems difficult to digest given they've already come up with so many iterations of the ALH & have now moved onto the NUH / LUH & LCH unless of course this activity for these hptrs were similarly outsourced too .

What're your views on it ? @Milspec

3rd party CAD work, as existing resources of ARDC are tied up.

And as far staffing, you know how that goes, todays req gets filled in... what 12-15 yrs.

Also if you look at the list, just standard design affair.

 

[Chain Smoker]

https://www.safran-group.com/products-services/aravalli?utm_source=social&utm_medium=linkedin&utm_content=6264d55b-6c26-49a8-8c39-dec65ad31faf

https://twitter.com/x/status/1889318301785825647

 

[Ashwin]

Safran pushes power limits higher in pursuit of next-generation military rotorcraft needs

Safran Helicopter Engines is deep into the initial stages of multiple separate projects to expand the upper limits of its military turboshaft range, pushing power output well beyond the current 3,000shp (2,240kW) maximum.

www.flightglobal.com

Safran pushes power limits higher in pursuit of next-generation military rotorcraft needs​

Safran Helicopter Engines is deep into the initial stages of multiple separate projects to expand the upper limits of its military turboshaft range, pushing power output well beyond the current 3,000shp (2,240kW) maximum.

At present, the most powerful engine in its range is the 3,000shp Aneto – an adaption of the earlier RTM322 for the NH Industries NH90 – but this will not meet the requirements of future applications.

“What we want to do now is continue to develop our product line in this market,” says chief executive Cedric Goubet.

The first output from this work will be an all-new engine it is developing through the Safhal joint venture with India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL).

Destined to power a future 13-14t-class heavy helicopter, the Aravalli turboshaft – named after an Indian mountain – will need to produce around 4,000shp.

Safran will be responsible for the hot section of the powerplant, which is scheduled to enter service on the HAL-developed Indian Multi-Role Helicopter in the 2030-2031 timeframe.

“For us it is really, in the mid-term, the most powerful engine we will have ever developed,” said Goubet during a media roundtable at the Verticon trade show in Dallas on 11 March.

But Safran is contemplating even higher power outputs for military helicopter engines in the future.

Last year, it announced the formalisation of a joint venture with Germany’s MTU Aero Engines called the European Military Rotorcraft Engine Alliance (EURA).

This is designed to address an emerging need in Europe for a military rotorcraft likely to enter service around 2040.