IAC-2 Future Aircraft Carrier Project - News & Discussions

Yes. China, like Russia, has put a lot of emphasis on sinking carriers that operate within an integrated battle-group or are supported by land-based aircraft. China can't muster enough naval force to challenge India in the IOR, not with their movements being tracked the moment they leave port by Japan, the US, Australia, Vietnam and India itself, but they can fight. And they know carriers are capital assets that'd set India back years, and they have more then enough capabilities to sink them if needed.

China has invested a lot of time and resources into sinking carriers in open waters, no matter where they're fighting.
The capability to sink a carrier in IOR requires very precise guidance mechanism, based on satellites. It cann't be based on drones or air borne radar because India can easily control the airspace in IOR region. What India needs to do right now is to develop Anti satellite capabilities. In case of a war with China, Chinese will annihilate Indian space assets, India should be ready to annihilate Chinese satellites making them blind to attack on our carriers.
 
They're certainly compromising. Otherwise they would have waited for nuclear.

The choice is between waiting 15 years for the reactor followed by another 15 years of carrier R&D and construction or buy a conventional carrier that can come in within the next 15 years. We will be in 2050 if we go for the former.

Broadsword: Navy drops cherished dream of nuclear-powered aircraft carrier
The navy, which was eager to incorporate nuclear propulsion for INS Vishal, has been told by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) that it would take 15-20 years to develop a nuclear reactor powerful enough for an aircraft carrier, incorporating features to protect it from the corrosive and dynamic marine environment.

Second carrier in our case will take at least 80% of the time it took to build the first one, that's not the point. I'm talking about how far apart each carrier will enter service. Look at MDL now, they're building 2 x P-15Bs simultaneously, although the modular construction method (where each block is built at a different shipyard and then brought to the final assembly yard) is not being followed. The 2nd P-15B will be commissioned only about an year after the first, doesn't mean it took only 1 year to build the second. It just means they worked on both ships simultaneously.

When you divide the work between various yards (public/private) for various components of the ships, building 2 carriers at the same time (and securing the finances for it) won't be a problem for us post-2030.

That's still 30 years wait time. Remember BARC says they need 15-20 years to develop a carrier reactor. Supercarrier design and construction can begin only after that.

You misunderstood. I'm saying IN has been sitting on the serious requirements (which effect core capabilities like aviation & mine-countermeasures) for years with no progress, in other words, doing nothing. So I don't see why IN can't do the same for the carrier plans, especially when the purpose is it work toward a long-term goal.

That's not out of choice, that's out of ridiculous amounts of bureaucracy and lack of real competitors.

We could have kept Viraat in service till 2080 if we were willing to foot the bill. As of Gorky, even if we assume it stays in top shape for next 30 years (I'll bet it won't), it'll be anything but combat-effective. It'd be about as effective as the Viraat with Harriers would have been against PLAN in 2018.

A ship is just a body, advanced or obsolete depends on what you put in it.

It's not sustainable because we are not making optimum use of money or time. There's no escaping the reality that unless we build a class of at least 2 identical carriers that will commission not more than 3 years apart, we will never realize the three-carrier plan in a long-term way. If we don't build multiple carriers, we'll sure have 3 carriers but in only a few years, one of them will have to retire and we're left again with 2.

Sure, let's build 4 supercarriers starting from 2040. But for now we need the conventional IAC-2 so that we can build 4 supercarriers in 2040.

If we build a conventional IAC-2 now, CSL will be tied up with it till mid-2030 bare minimum. If we start building 2 nuclear carriers starting mid or late 2030s, we'll only have them by the 2050s. But if we don't go the conventional route in the interim, and wait it out for the PWR, we can begin construction of the 2 carriers within or in early 2030s, and have them both in service in the 2040s, with Vikrant having atleast 15 years of life left still. By the 2030 period, finances for 2 carriers won't be a problem and the $6-8 billion we'll have to spend on IAC-2 can easily be diverted to other programs as a side benefit.

What we're doing by committing to a single conventional IAC-2 now is that we're effectively pushing the N-carrier plan back by around 10 years.

You are being way too optimistic with your time frame there.

It's either go for a conventional carrier by 2035 or go for supercarriers by 2050, or both. There is no such thing as building a supercarrier in the early 2030s and getting them by 2040. So there is no in-between.

Not to mention, even if the carrier construction begins in the early 2030s, how are you so confident that we will deliver a carrier just 8 years later when all our carrier experience has been lost since 2018? That's 14 years even if we start in 2032. It's no different from the Marut-LCA gap.

Think about it this way, you are 22 now. If you choose this as a career, you are at best going to start accruing real experience only after you are 26 or so, about the time IAC-2 begins construction. But with Vikrant done and IAC-2 stopped, you are not gaining any experience in building a carrier. But if we start a new program 20 years later, you will be 42 and people are gonna ask you to be a part of the program, perhaps even lead it. But where's your carrier construction experience? Zero, right?

But if the conventional IAC-2 is given the go ahead, you will be able to claim at least 10-15 years in carrier construction, which will give you the tools necessary to build a 100,000T carrier. Jumping from 65,000T to 100,000T is much easier than starting from scratch. Without IAC-2, we can't build supercarriers, it's as simple as that.

You can see the Chinese doing the same. Their new 80,000T flattop will also be conventionally powered. Even they are making their way up properly and systematically.
 
The choice is between waiting 15 years for the reactor followed by another 15 years of carrier R&D and construction or buy a conventional carrier that can come in within the next 15 years. We will be in 2050 if we go for the former.

Broadsword: Navy drops cherished dream of nuclear-powered aircraft carrier
The navy, which was eager to incorporate nuclear propulsion for INS Vishal, has been told by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) that it would take 15-20 years to develop a nuclear reactor powerful enough for an aircraft carrier, incorporating features to protect it from the corrosive and dynamic marine environment.

That's still 30 years wait time. Remember BARC says they need 15-20 years to develop a carrier reactor. Supercarrier design and construction can begin only after that.

Obviously the given timelines are far from the truth. Naval PWRs, along with nuclear submarines, come under Strategic projects and you can be sure BARC isn't putting their timelines up for the media to scrutinize. It's the same as for Arihant. If they're saying it'll start sea trials shortly, chances are its already been undergoing sea trials for a long time.

As of the PWR, couple things to consider: a nuclear carrier of the size we want will have a reactor in the range of 180-220MWe. This will be the same as the PWR which will be used on the future, larger class of SSBNs, first of which will be in construction in about the next 10 years or so. We're not going to develop an entirely new reactor for carriers, it will be a derivative of this one. The next line of SSBNs are not 20 years away...and neither is the PWR which will power them (and carriers). If it was, then S-5 will only be realized in 2040s, which is simply not the case.

Second, we all know we aren't developing these reactors from scratch. A lot of the work was already done years ago outside the country. As was for Arihant's 82MW reactor.

That's not out of choice, that's out of ridiculous amounts of bureaucracy and lack of real competitors.

Same result.

Sure, let's build 4 supercarriers starting from 2040. But for now we need the conventional IAC-2 so that we can build 4 supercarriers in 2040.

You are being way too optimistic with your time frame there.

It's either go for a conventional carrier by 2035 or go for supercarriers by 2050, or both. There is no such thing as building a supercarrier in the early 2030s and getting them by 2040. So there is no in-between.

Not to mention, even if the carrier construction begins in the early 2030s, how are you so confident that we will deliver a carrier just 8 years later when all our carrier experience has been lost since 2018? That's 14 years even if we start in 2032. It's no different from the Marut-LCA gap.

Think about it this way, you are 22 now. If you choose this as a career, you are at best going to start accruing real experience only after you are 26 or so, about the time IAC-2 begins construction. But with Vikrant done and IAC-2 stopped, you are not gaining any experience in building a carrier. But if we start a new program 20 years later, you will be 42 and people are gonna ask you to be a part of the program, perhaps even lead it. But where's your carrier construction experience? Zero, right?

But if the conventional IAC-2 is given the go ahead, you will be able to claim at least 10-15 years in carrier construction, which will give you the tools necessary to build a 100,000T carrier. Jumping from 65,000T to 100,000T is much easier than starting from scratch. Without IAC-2, we can't build supercarriers, it's as simple as that.

What carriers did UK build for the last 30 or so years? The last carrier they built before QEC was HMS Ark Royal, commissioned 1985.

After a 30-year hiatus, they built up & commissioned a new supercarrier after 8 years of construction, and are set to commission the 2nd one a mere 3 years later. How they accomplished this even though no shipyard had retained any carrier-building experience whatsoever?

The answer is that they adopted modern methods of shipbuilding, which guarantee timely deliveries (if executed competently). The thing about modular shipbuilding (which is the way of the future if one wants to make the most of the money & time they're spending) is that most of the carrier will actually be built in separate blocks, at separate shipyards, most of which have never even seen a carrier, let alone built one.

But it makes no difference. A block is a block, whether it's being built for a carrier or a frigate (we're already adopting this method of construction, although distribution of work isn't all here yet, for the P-17A FFG).

QEC-challenge_BAES_026151_748x421.jpg


As we move forward, newer methods of construction will throw the old dynamics of retaining building experience within a single shipyard, out of the window. Further, as I said, there will actually be very less stuff that's common between IAC-1 and 2 as far as construction goes. When you go to build a new carrier class, you have to throw away all that you have learnt about building a previous class. IAC-2 doesn't help retain CSL's experience from IAC-1, it just keeps them busy.

If retaining CSL's experience is the true goal here, then the order should have been for a 2nd Vikrant.
 
Obviously the given timelines are far from the truth. Naval PWRs, along with nuclear submarines, come under Strategic projects and you can be sure BARC isn't putting their timelines up for the media to scrutinize. It's the same as for Arihant. If they're saying it'll start sea trials shortly, chances are its already been undergoing sea trials for a long time.

As of the PWR, couple things to consider: a nuclear carrier of the size we want will have a reactor in the range of 180-220MWe. This will be the same as the PWR which will be used on the future, larger class of SSBNs, first of which will be in construction in about the next 10 years or so. We're not going to develop an entirely new reactor for carriers, it will be a derivative of this one. The next line of SSBNs are not 20 years away...and neither is the PWR which will power them (and carriers). If it was, then S-5 will only be realized in 2040s, which is simply not the case.

Second, we all know we aren't developing these reactors from scratch. A lot of the work was already done years ago outside the country. As was for Arihant's 82MW reactor.

BARC has done nothing for the carrier reactors yet.

Same result.

The situations are completely different.

What carriers did UK build for the last 30 or so years? The last carrier they built before QEC was HMS Ark Royal, commissioned 1985.

That's because the French designed their carrier.

When you go to build a new carrier class, you have to throw away all that you have learnt about building a previous class.

That's not even close to the truth.
 
BARC has done nothing for the carrier reactors yet.

If they're working on the next gen SSBN reactors, then they are working on the carrier reactor, whether they like to admit as much to the media or not. (obviously not).

That's because the French designed their carrier.

That's just the design stage. I'm talking about the actual construction experience of the shipyards involved, which was absent for a long long time.

That's not even close to the truth.

That is the truth. That's why MDL took as much time to build the P-15As as they took to build the P-15. Even though the last P15 was commissioned only 2 years before the first P15A was laid down. So they never actually took a long break from building ships of approx 7,000T class. The difference in displacement is only a few hundred tons at best.

Between IAC-1 and 2 the difference is of over 25,000T.

Believe me, very little, if any at all, experience is going to be carried over. They're simply not building the same carrier. A 65,000T ship is a whole different ball game.
 
If they're working on the next gen SSBN reactors, then they are working on the carrier reactor, whether they like to admit as much to the media or not. (obviously not).

This is not like the case with SSNs and SSBNs. There is no reason to maintain secrecy here.

That's just the design stage. I'm talking about the actual construction experience of the shipyards involved, which was absent for a long long time.

Apart from the fact that they have a long history of building ships, the design matters a lot. In our case, delivery of equipment almost always gets delayed, and then we also end up changing the design and ask for major changes mid way during construction, like what happened with Vikrant. For the QE, the excellent French design experience was combined with a professional workforce that took delivery of equipment in time.

And they were not building a supercarrier but just a 65,000T conventional STOBAR carrier. What you are recommending is a direct jump to a nuclear powered supercarrier over 100,000T from nothing.

That is the truth. That's why MDL took as much time to build the P-15As as they took to build the P-15. Even though the last P15 was commissioned only 2 years before the first P15A was laid down. So they never actually took a long break from building ships of approx 7,000T class. The difference in displacement is only a few hundred tons at best.

Between IAC-1 and 2 the difference is of over 25,000T.

Believe me, very little, if any at all, experience is going to be carried over. They're simply not building the same carrier. A 65,000T ship is a whole different ball game.

The P-15A was delayed for the same reason as Vikrant. The IN changed the design many times during the construction process. Had MDL not gained experience with the P-15, the P-15A wouldn't have worked out properly.

Not to mention, a lot of delays were due to screw-ups not related to construction. For example, the Vikrant was delayed by 3 years because the gear train got involved in a road accident while it was being transported and had to be rebuilt. The P-15A saw major delays in delivery from Ukraine. The P-15B is now seeing delays from Russia. So every time something is delayed, the navy uses that time to bring in design changes, which may or may not work out and that brings in further delays.

Unlike the British, we suffer from not having our own technologies, or easy to source technologies.

http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Public Accounts/16_Public_Accounts_32.pdf
(c) The need to have state-of-the-art systems onboard the ships leads to frequent mid-course changes;

(d) Considering long gestation for warship construction, generally 07 to 08 years, the experience gained on the first ship is implemented on remaining vessels. However, since the batch size is small, each new class has its own learning curve;

(f) Non-receipt of inputs relating to various equipment and systems under development on-time, sometimes because of concurrent development of technology by the industry;

(g) Delay in finalizing the weapon package leading to late receipt of binding data, resulting in frequent design changes and in some cases re-work;

(h) Unfamiliarity with modern technology experienced by the shipyard and navy, leading to delays;

============

P-15A:
As far as the build period is concerned, the initial build period was estimated on the work content in building the ships. However, there were delays in the project due to, inter-alia, delay by propulsion equipment suppliers, calling for cancellation of order and reordering, and developmental nature of main weapons and sensors. The delays due to above reasons could not be estimated at the beginning of the project.
============

Delays in Delivery of Equipment - Delay in delivery of equipment by both indigenous and foreign vendors has been a major cause of project delays. Indigenization of certain weapons and sensors, and development by R&D organization takes time, resulting in time over runs. Cases in example are IFF, SRGM, AK630, ATAS, EON 51 and Kavach for Project 17.
============

Even today, the P-15B is delayed by 3 years due to the non-delivery of shafts from Russia. The experience from older projects are definitely being carried over. If it didn't then even Bangladesh will be able to build a supercarrier from scratch with zero experience. Otoh, we don't even give more important ship contracts to our private shipyards.
 
This is not like the case with SSNs and SSBNs. There is no reason to maintain secrecy here.

There is because the core technology (reactor) will be from a common design. Revealing something about one means you reveal something about other. And there's no way they'll reveal the timeline of the most strategic tech (reactor) in the most strategic project (SSBN) to Ajai Shukla.

Apart from the fact that they have a long history of building ships, the design matters a lot. In our case, delivery of equipment almost always gets delayed, and then we also end up changing the design and ask for major changes mid way during construction, like what happened with Vikrant. For the QE, the excellent French design experience was combined with a professional workforce that took delivery of equipment in time.

Everything is relative (whether its carriers or P-15A/B). If we graduate to truly modular shipbuilding methods (which we're already doing with MDL & GRSE), the experience-retaining aspect becomes less relevant, to the point where shipyards which have never previously even done repair work on carriers, can graduate to building blocks for carriers which will be shipped to the final assembly yard (CSL) to be put together into a carrier. The only shipyard here that might need some experience with handling ships of this size will be the final assembly yard. It won't be a problem for handling because CSL will be routinely docking both the Vikrant & Vikramaditya for repair/refit work from time to time anyway.

DqwtvTDXQAAe_VI.jpg


British yards did not even have that experience. The only flattop they had to play with was Ark Royal which by present standards is nothing but a 22,000T LHD at best.

And they were not building a supercarrier but just a 65,000T conventional STOBAR carrier.

It's STOVL really (QEC has no barrier-assisted recovery), anyway, technically anything 65,000T or above is a supercarrier, regardless of launch setup. The reason why only the American 100,000T ships were called supercarriers was because before the QEC came, the Americans were the only ones to have carriers of 65,000T or above.

What you are recommending is a direct jump to a nuclear powered supercarrier over 100,000T from nothing.

I have no disagreement if our nuclear carriers turn out to be in 65,000-75,000T range. That's pretty sufficient for foreseeable needs. The French nuclear carrier is only 42,000T and it can carry 40 aircraft, by that measure a nuclear IAC-2 can easily carry 50-55+, which is more than enough. A conventional carrier of the same displacement though, will be able to carry less, thanks to the fact they have to accommodate vast liquid fuel storage for the ship's own use internally. On an N ship the only fuel you need to carry will be for the aviation, allowing much more leeway in maximizing the capability of the ship for the purpose it was designed for - to carry aircraft.

And building a 65,000T carrier from nothing isn't an unheard-of feat. It's already been done. Twice actually. All we require from our yards is not experience, but simple competence. If we can't bring that to the table, then we have no business building or operating carriers.

The P-15A was delayed for the same reason as Vikrant. The IN changed the design many times during the construction process. Had MDL not gained experience with the P-15, the P-15A wouldn't have worked out properly.

Not to mention, a lot of delays were due to screw-ups not related to construction. For example, the Vikrant was delayed by 3 years because the gear train got involved in a road accident while it was being transported and had to be rebuilt. The P-15A saw major delays in delivery from Ukraine. The P-15B is now seeing delays from Russia. So every time something is delayed, the navy uses that time to bring in design changes, which may or may not work out and that brings in further delays.

As I said, everything I said is relative. But on this note, it's also important for us to take suppliers who don't deliver to book, and blacklist them from any further orders, going instead for the more reliable, albeit more expensive, Western supplier option wherever possible. To be honest I'm surprised we still stick with Zorya tubines and Russian shafts for a ship as advanced as P-15B (which is arguably more advanced than any warship in the Russian Navy). The P-17As with their GE turbines and MAN diesels are going to be so much more reliable, and the way to go really.

I guess we're still unable to shake off the Russian influence sourcing from the original P-15 Delhi-class design.

Unlike the British, we suffer from not having our own technologies, or easy to source technologies.

http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Public Accounts/16_Public_Accounts_32.pdf
(c) The need to have state-of-the-art systems onboard the ships leads to frequent mid-course changes;

(d) Considering long gestation for warship construction, generally 07 to 08 years, the experience gained on the first ship is implemented on remaining vessels. However, since the batch size is small, each new class has its own learning curve;

(f) Non-receipt of inputs relating to various equipment and systems under development on-time, sometimes because of concurrent development of technology by the industry;

(g) Delay in finalizing the weapon package leading to late receipt of binding data, resulting in frequent design changes and in some cases re-work;

(h) Unfamiliarity with modern technology experienced by the shipyard and navy, leading to delays;
============

P-15A:
As far as the build period is concerned, the initial build period was estimated on the work content in building the ships. However, there were delays in the project due to, inter-alia, delay by propulsion equipment suppliers, calling for cancellation of order and reordering, and developmental nature of main weapons and sensors. The delays due to above reasons could not be estimated at the beginning of the project.
============

Delays in Delivery of Equipment - Delay in delivery of equipment by both indigenous and foreign vendors has been a major cause of project delays. Indigenization of certain weapons and sensors, and development by R&D organization takes time, resulting in time over runs. Cases in example are IFF, SRGM, AK630, ATAS, EON 51 and Kavach for Project 17.

Just goes to show we need to get our house in order before building another carrier. What's happening here is that we're going to build a new ship, without correcting any of the mistakes (not just wrt building, but suppliers as well) we made in building the old ship.

The experience from older projects are definitely being carried over.

In terms of managing the project maybe, unfortunately it simply doesn't translate into tangible results. Maybe because not much is being carried over in the first place. But in terms of building, the carryover is very minimal. You do as much as adding a new module, which will change the center of gravity, and you have a whole lot of more work at hand, you simply can't blindly follow the old rules anymore, and that's with everything else remaining the same.

On the other hand, a 65,000T carrier is a whole different ball game from a 40,000T one. It's not even in the same league. The difference is to the tune of 25,000T, the difference is an entire LHD's worth.

If it didn't then even Bangladesh will be able to build a supercarrier from scratch with zero experience.

If they can get a competent design, if they can provide the investment needed to build a yard big enough to handle a supercarrier for final assembly, adopt modern computer-assisted training methods, and distribute the workload to a network of equally competent shipbuilders via modular block construction, and finally provide the money needed to build & operate, there's no reason why Bangladesh can't build a supercarrier.

The reason they can't, is because they don't have any of the things listed which it takes to do so, nor the money needed to procure them. But we do/will, by 2030, we certainly will.

Otoh, we don't even give more important ship contracts to our private shipyards.

There's another problem. Even if you are building a conventional carrier, modular shipbuilding involving multiple public/private yards is the way to go. Not doing that simply means we are not making proper use of time or money.
 
Last edited:
It says they've offered the design not the actual carrier, so maybe. Chances are they'll offer the basic platform stripped of some of the sensors and processing technology.
You can bundle it into a package along with RR & offer it to China. Who knows they may even take it over thus securing your future and that of thousands of defense related jobs in the UK.
 
It's STOVL really (QEC has no barrier-assisted recovery), anyway, technically anything 65,000T or above is a supercarrier, regardless of launch setup. The reason why only the American 100,000T ships were called supercarriers was because before the QEC came, the Americans were the only ones to have carriers of 65,000T or above.
It has SRVL. It could easily be rebuilt as CATOBAR though.
 
UK is desperate to get into the Indian market now that Brexit - hard or soft is imminent. Poor Brits. They certainly know the pile of cash that can be made here but can't do anything about it . After all they had an absolute monopoly over it 7 decades ago but now have to make do with loose change.
Were you even alive 7 decades ago? You're like the black teens in America complaining about slavery.
 

Seems so. But I doubt how high this goes.

For the Indian requirement, they'd basically have a offer a design that's more in line with the original French-focused PA2 concept, rather than the QEC we see today:

9213486763_0a2e50ca13_o.jpg


At least officially, all indications so far are that we would want a conventional propulsion system. Not sure how that will pan out with regard to EMALS (high surge power needs), but anyway, it's a factor that would be favourable for anyone who wants to offer a conventional carrier design.

But honestly...I don't see takers for it in the IN. It's true that risk reduction is significant in going with a proven design that's already been built, but from what I can gather, the design for a future carrier is already well underway by the Navy's Design Bureau. Their capabilities of carrier design are already more or less established - the proof is floating outside Cochin Shipyard's building dock.

Adapting the QEC to the IN needs might actually be unnecessary effort at this point. Considering a design that is fully tailor made for IN's needs is already in the works domestically.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gautam and Bon Plan
Seems so. But I doubt how high this goes.

For the Indian requirement, they'd basically have a offer a design that's more in line with the original French-focused PA2 concept, rather than the QEC we see today:

9213486763_0a2e50ca13_o.jpg


At least officially, all indications so far are that we would want a conventional propulsion system. Not sure how that will pan out with regard to EMALS (high surge power needs), but anyway, it's a factor that would be favourable for anyone who wants to offer a conventional carrier design.

But honestly...I don't see takers for it in the IN. It's true that risk reduction is significant in going with a proven design that's already been built, but from what I can gather, the design for a future carrier is already well underway by the Navy's Design Bureau. Their capabilities of carrier design are already more or less established - the proof is floating outside Cochin Shipyard's building dock.

Adapting the QEC to the IN needs might actually be unnecessary effort at this point. Considering a design that is fully tailor made for IN's needs is already in the works domestically.
Perfectly fitted for Rafale M !!!!
 
Why not ! It's the most recent real design of a classical powered carrier, and a catapult version was already studied with the french.
If the French were involved, that makes the design more credible. Unfortunately, the offer comes from the mendacious Brits. Had the French made such an offer, I'm sure the MoD & the IN would've studied it closely.