We also want China to be removed from NSG and UNSC....
India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
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Dealing with Pakistan is like cleaning of smelling garbage in your neighbor. The municipal is out of power and money to do it. Each resident was another resident to deal with it because no one wants their clothes to get dirty. So, it is seldom done. It keeps on getting bigger and smellier. Finally when fire or disease breakout, it is dealt in emergency mode; not without sending a lot of people to hospital.
An analogy that may look ridiculous but holds true.
We have to live with the neighbour we have, we have no option. How we deal with it, is our issue. That is why, I am waiting for @Star Wars to join us at the thread I had posted on Imposing Costs.
Let us wait for that to further carry on this discussion.
Yes and No. The PAF retaliation on Military Targets, as claimed by GoI and IAF, is a reason enough. But did we? I suggest you head over to the thread on Imposing Costs made by me in one of my rant modes and a great rejoinder posted by @suryakiran ... your inputs on this can be carried forward there.
Again, we have a dichotomy. It is yes and a no.
Irrelevant. Stand off weapons may/may not be intercepted by SAMs. They need CIWS. That is a bit difficult to envisage.
And SAMs would be some way off. Remember that the Kashmir Valley is a flat expanse of land surrounded by towering mountains on all it's sides, so detection may be delayed with delay in consequent firing solutions being available for the SAM teams.
That is the domain of @vstol Jockey. Whatever I say, will be speculative at best. @ankitkumar has also disappeared, he was a navy buff. Where is he?
Oh, it seems to be a case of entrapment on sides of both. PAF fell for the trap, IAF was ready and waiting, Wg Cdr Varthman decided to play a bit out of line to the overall plan, and was trapped too.
Now one can always say that, as I am convinced that he bagged a F-16, the bagging of F-16 was the saving grace for his actions, IAF limiting PAF ingress and engaging them after being left unchallenged in the Pakistani Airspace with the famous tweet by Pakistan Defence of PAF being awake was the saving grace for IAF and downing and capture of an IAF pilot was saving grace of PAF.
I am sure both sides expected an A2A combat and were prepared for it, they just did not expect to get a kill and get killed in the way that it played out.
What's the damage assessment sir at these places? Your grapevine assessment.
Yeah recent high profile snatch from UAE in Augusta Westland scam was engineered by Doval, could lead to jail time for Rahul and his mother. Therefore the targeting.
Except that we have evidence that the said target was not hit. As I said before, I'm not going by anyone's claims here. Just irrefutable evidence.
Regarding PAF's strike, there is no evidence available yet. However, PA actually claimed that they hit 'non-military' targets. India claimed that they hit within the Indian military installation compounds, but didn't do any damage. Given that PAF utilized H-4 SOWs (evidence present), it is believable that PAF's strike was a shot across the bow...a very carefully calibrated proportional response, to what we believe IAF's strike was.
No, it is not conjecture, only speculation with the intention to justify your claim, on your part.
I know they do, the thing is IAF used a very specific size. Thats the basis of the entire argument.
The number is important because Pakistan has evidence of SPICE-2000 SOWs being employed for the strike. SPICE-2000 is compatible ONLY with 2000lbs munitions. I would be happy to be proven wrong.
And I didn't say IAF didn't have a 2000lbs (general purpose/penetration) munition. I asked, does IAF have a 2000lbs ANTI-PERSONNEL munition, the kind which leaves non-hardened structures intact?
The devil is always in the details.
Indeed. In the Indo-Pak context, I've observed that the truth is always somewhere in between the two lies. While India politicized and claimed brouhaha regarding the 2016 cross-border raids, Pakistan denied them in their entirety. Cross border raids were nothing new, what changed was, this time it was a synchronized raid at 5-6 locations, with the intent to cause military and non-military casualties.
Oohh, when is THIS movie being released? Is it possible to pre-order tickets?
I absolutely agree that Pakistan HAS to stop supporting these 'strategic assets', NOW. They only work for their interests aka money. There is no guarantee that they will not turn against Pakistan, as evident by the attack JeM carried out on Musharraf when he tried to uproot them.
Regarding Israel/Palestine situation, one has to visualize the scale of it if the same thing happens here. We have witnessed first-hand what a mass migration does to the host country. Where do you think the Kalashnikov culture came from?
Imagine the dismembered factions of PA as the aggressors you face today. Imagine the amount and skill of them, and their new recruits. Imagine them being armed with whatever was left over and not dismantled. Imagine living in the constant fear, everyday, that somewhere in a busy city, the Geiger counters will start going off.
It will never be worth it. One way or the other, Pakistan will take the region down with it if provoked. For a long time, my signature elsewhere was:
"Ham tou doobay hain sanam,
Tum ko bhi lay doobain gaay"
Agreed. What the gullible public doesn't realizes, is that state-sponsored terrorism exists on both sides of the border. The difference is, Pakistan does it somewhat openly and in an amateur way, and India does it in a very concealed manner, always remaining in the shadows. In fact I expect some sort of TTP regrouping and some boarding tickets to Jannat being issued right now, as retaliation to Pulwama.
Pakistan has very limited options right now, and it must act.
Purely from a PR perspective, when the silence about these targets from all civilian quarters is broken, all hell will break loose.
I get the feeling the govt will release something in the run up to the elections so that it stays fresh in people's minds when they cast their vote.
I think Falcon's post here should tell you all. Particularly the one in bold.
Do we (civvies) even know the nature and location of these targets? Or has the govt put a lid on that?
I agree with most of what's said in the specific post. My points so far have been in particular regard to the Balakot strike, based on available evidence. Regrading Chakothi & Muzaffarabad, no evidence available on the ground. Not even a peep from the locals. I wonder why (should have included this question in the initial post).
Regarding PAF's strike in IOK in response to IAF's strike in Pakistan proper, I believe that the nature of the PAF targets settled for this, i.e. non-military targets in proximity of military installations in response to non-military target in proximity of civilian installation.
Pakistan has only one option left
To Give Up the Kashmir OBSESESSION
That is the only way for lasting peace
Whether you do it now or after 10 years
It is upto you
BREAKING In a targeted attack, Indian Army bombed an ammunition depot of Pakistan army with heavy artillery near Chakothi of POK around 3PM of this afternoon..Ammunition depot completely destroyed, Casualties to enemy.
Indian Army bombed an ammunition depot of Pakistan army with heavy artillery near Chakothi of POK around 3PM of this afternoon.
Ammunition depot destroyed, heavy Casualties on Pakistan side.
Ammunition depot destroyed, heavy Casualties on Pakistan side.
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