India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

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vstol Jockey said:
As long as they are not threatening us and coming less than 10kms of the LOC, we can't fire at them. Let them come within 10kms or enter our area and this time they won't go back.
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They Ambushed us on Feb 27

Now the Rules of Engagement must be thrown in the Dust Bin and REVENGE must be taken

No Self Respecting Country can tolerate this
Ambush of Feb 27
 
_Anonymous_ said:
A simple 2 word answer - dismember it. Containing it would be a short term solution. Which we have been half heartedly trying with obviously mixed results. I disagree with your contention of our reluctance to undertake covert operations in order not to attract the opprobrium that Pakistan does. We need to undertake such operations with enough distance to maintain plausible deniability. In case we aren't, a bit of wink & nudge by our allies may be in order.


We need to build up a case that a N armed Pakistan with a rogue PA is an inherently destabilizing entity not just for the neighborhood but for the general peace & security of the democratic world. This has to be hammered constantly into our western allies & Russia. The former needs to be made aware of the tendency of the Chinese to profit from this dissonance thereby affecting the security situation in the Far East.

The onus of construction & the selling of such a narrative and the solution vis s vis a break up of Pakistan into smaller Nations rests on us. I doubt whether we have ever given serious thought to this. In any event, if we haven't, we ought to.


Our aim should be clear cut. The de fanging of Pakistan and reconquest of PoK. This is essential as apart from being the virtual umbilical cord binding both iron brothers, it's this bit of real estate that's at the heart of the CPEC, China's energy security avoiding the Malacca dilemma and their access to the IOR.This is also Pakistan's gateway to the CAR & ours too should we choose to exercise this choice . Let me go further and second @vstol Jockey 's view that having taken PoJ&K , we need to focus on the Wakhan & annex it too thus cutting off China's access to the CAR ( in a limited way) & the ME permanently.The Chinese need to know their sphere of influence is the Far East & the limits of their reach in their Western borders.

We don't need the population of Mirpuris in the so called AJK. The ones in GB can be retained if they aren't deemed to be a security threat.




The Chinese would, if we neglect to seize PoJ&K NOW, not otherwise. In addition to this, I would advocate taking territory in KPK - Pakistan flanking the Wakhan which would happen to be Swat, Hazara and Chitral too. This must serve as a bargaining chip, when we derecognise the Durand Line and encourage the Pashtuns to reunite promising them recognition if they recognize our taking over the Wakhan in exchange for Chitral.

If this results in the non Pashtuns of Afghanistan feeling insecure, let them. We can think in terms of a Northern Afghanistan, Southern Afghanistan and a Punjabistan as mutual antagonists. Suits our policy too.



I would keenly await your views on this vexed problem & it's solutions.
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The ONLY long term solution is an independent Sindh and independent Balochistan; both treaty bound with India and under the Indian military umbrella if necessary. KPK/FATA to Afghanistan to reunite the Pashtuns (Northern Afghanistan either breaks away or we prop up the Northern tribes who tend to be a little less crazy than Pasthuns); And PoJK back with India, with India altering geography as needed to permanently box China out while building up our own link to the CAR's. As for the population, if you fight a "loose" enough war (basically not worrying about collateral damage), you can generally manage to empty an area out. Massive destruction, loose RoE, and a bit of extra incentive for leaving (at least to those communities identified as anti-India) should do the trick. No harm if many from those specific communities die either, a lot of those people have had a role in the conflict against India anyways.

Pakee Punjab (minus some of its Eastern, most fertile territory + Lahore & Nankana Sahib - which can be claimed for the Sikhs) can be demilitarized, denuclearized and landlocked. And we can use water and overwhelming military force to ensure compliance from them henceforth.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Can you please sum up the 27th ambush as to who won it.
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We won , but They Attacked our Military Installations and Fired on our planes
When they were well Inside our Indian Territory

Revenge will happen when we ambush their planes

I read that BVR missiles fired from 50 K Feet
Travel their Full Range

So we must try this out

Even if they are doing CAPs inside 20 km
We can Hit them

It is all about Will

Otherwise Attack their Radars and SAMs and Do another Balakot

Right now Only the Army is
Showing Initiative and Determination

I dont know What has the IAF brass
Told the Govt about the Benefits
This Non Agressive mode that they have adopted

Does Doval understand Moral Ascendancy

Right now that Ba***rd Ghafoor is gloating
Because they can Claim that They Won
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Can you please sum up the 27th ambush as to who won it.
Click to expand...

PAF did not achieve its goals for the day. Ghafoor claimed moral victory by saying we can bomb you but we did not. There was a furball of a skirmish and both sides lost a fighter each. We lost something that was due to retire in 5 years tops and they lost their Tier1 plane.

I would say that PAF looked silly that day but then I am just a hobbyist.
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
We won , but They Attacked our Military Installations and Fired on our planes
When they were well Inside our Indian Territory

Revenge will happen when we ambush their planes

I read that BVR missiles fired from 50 K Feet
Travel their Full Range

So we must try this out

Even if they are doing CAPs inside 20 km
We can Hit them

It is all about Will

Otherwise Attack their Radars and SAMs and Do another Balakot

Right now Only the Army is
Shiwing Initiative and Determination

I dont know What has the IAF brass
Told the Govt about This Non Agressive mode that they have adopted

Does Doval understand Moral Ascendancy

Right now that Ba***rd Ghafoor is gloating
Because they can Claim that They Won
Click to expand...
We had hit them on 26th and killed nearly 300 of them. Round-1 India.
They tried to attack us on 27th. Failed to deliver bombs on Target. Lost one aircraft and two pilots dead. India lost one aircraft and one pilot taken POW who is back with his squadron. IAF shot down the intruder. Round-2 also to India.
India hammered them on 2nd march and also on 5-6th March. No retaliation from PA/PAF. Round-3 also goes to India.
We are now hammering the hell out of them at LOC.
Even after this you want revenge and tell me which action of PA/PAF needs to be avenged.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
We had hit them on 26th and killed nearly 300 of them. Round-1 India.
They tried to attack us on 27th. Failed to deliver bombs on Target. Lost one aircraft and two pilots dead. India lost one aircraft and one pilot taken POW who is back with his squadron. IAF shot down the intruder. Round-2 also to India.
India hammered them on 2nd march and also on 5-6th March. No relatiation from PA/PAF. Round-3 also goes to India.
We are now hammering the hell out of them at LOC.
Even after this you want revenge and tell me which action of PA/PAF needs to be avenged.
Click to expand...

The 2nd March and 5 th , 6 th March actions

They are Conjectures and Hearsays
And Assumptions

Only people like you know what happened
Somebody says Khuzdar , somebody says
Fort Abbas , Sonebody says Abbaspur , Chakoti , Muzaffarabad

Who will tell us exactly what happened
 
RATHORE said:
The ONLY long term solution is an independent Sindh and independent Balochistan; both treaty bound with India and under the Indian military umbrella if necessary. KPK/FATA to Afghanistan to reunite the Pashtuns (Northern Afghanistan either breaks away or we prop up the Northern tribes who tend to be a little less crazy than Pasthuns); And PoJK back with India, with India altering geography as needed to permanently box China out while building up our own link to the CAR's. As for the population, if you fight a "loose" enough war (basically not worrying about collateral damage), you can generally manage to empty an area out. Massive destruction, loose RoE, and a bit of extra incentive for leaving (at least to those communities identified as anti-India) should do the trick. No harm if many from those specific communities die either, a lot of those people have had a role in the conflict against India anyways.

Pakee Punjab (minus some of its Eastern, most fertile territory + Lahore & Nankana Sahib - which can be claimed for the Sikhs) can be demilitarized, denuclearized and landlocked. And we can use water and overwhelming military force to ensure compliance from them henceforth.
Click to expand...


My $.02 - Liberated Balochistan and Sindh both new struggling nations under our banner sounds good. I just have my doubts on China sitting quietly while we take out their master plan to reach the Arabian Sea. They are too committed in this - financially, politically and emotionally (Chinese are pretty big on loss of face).

The way I see it, India will have to make some concessions to get China onboard. Guarantees of keeping the road to Gwadar open, changes on Tibet and Taiwan policies, the Naval Quad are some areas where the Chinese will make demands. How much we concede depends on variables like diplomatic support, possibility of military support from the bigger powers and our economic position at the time.

China's long term plan is to keep us mired in crap while it rises and increases the gap between its economy and ours. They wont just pack up and leave the region and let all that work go down the drain.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
We had hit them on 26th and killed nearly 300 of them. Round-1 India.
They tried to attack us on 27th. Failed to deliver bombs on Target. Lost one aircraft and two pilots dead. India lost one aircraft and one pilot taken POW who is back with his squadron. IAF shot down the intruder. Round-2 also to India.
India hammered them on 2nd march and also on 5-6th March. No retaliation from PA/PAF. Round-3 also goes to India.
We are now hammering the hell out of them at LOC.
Even after this you want revenge and tell me which action of PA/PAF needs to be avenged.
Click to expand...

Dumb question - can someone shed some light on this 5-6 March action.
 
Jaymax said:
My $.02 - Liberated Balochistan and Sindh both new struggling nations under our banner sounds good. I just have my doubts on China sitting quietly while we take out their master plan to reach the Arabian Sea. They are too committed in this - financially, politically and emotionally (Chinese are pretty big on loss of face).

The way I see it, India will have to make some concessions to get China onboard. Guarantees of keeping the road to Gwadar open, changes on Tibet and Taiwan policies, the Naval Quad are some areas where the Chinese will make demands. How much we concede depends on variables like diplomatic support, possibility of military support from the bigger powers and our economic position at the time.

China's long term plan is to keep us mired in crap while it rises and increases the gap between its economy and ours. They wont just pack up and leave the region and let all that work go down the drain.
Click to expand...

We have to move quick and move decisively. There are definitely times of the year when due to weather, China would basically become a non-factor. Even better, if we pick a time when China itself is mired in some tensions w/ US or something (the same way China invaded us at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis) - they would be far too preoccupied elsewhere to interfere.

I'm not interested in any major concessions like Tibet or Taiwan. And China certainly shouldn't be allowed to exploit places like Balochistan under our watch. But yes, we can strike a deal to allow economic activity/connectivity through our/our allies' territory - but only if China behaves itself and even that will be completely at our mercy in a future conflict - just like the Sunda, Lombok & Malacca Straits are right now.
 
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Jaymax said:
Liberated Balochistan and Sindh both new struggling nations under our banner sounds good.
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Not feasible for now because when there is nationalism in Sindh and Balochistan the sindhis will be against Balochis as well and Balochis will be againt Sindhis. War between balochistan and sindh will be imminent. There is big population of Balochis in Sindh. And there is also huge popeulation of urdu speakers in Sindh. So ISI has very cleverly allowed the demographic settelement there. Every one counters eachother equally. India have have the resources but not the numbers in population.
 
screambowl said:
Not feasible for now because when there is nationalism in Sindh and Balochistan the sindhis will be against Balochis as well and Balochis will be againt Sindhis. War between balochistan and sindh will be imminent. There is big population of Balochis in Sindh. And there is also huge popeulation of urdu speakers in Sindh. So ISI has very cleverly allowed the demographic settelement there. Every one counters eachother equally. India have have the resources but not the numbers in population.
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This is where India has to step up and play the Big Brother role. Turn South Asia into India's Latin America; but act in a more benevolent manner (at least when possible).
 
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Jaymax said:
Dumb question - can someone shed some light on this 5-6 March action.
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Have you ever eaten a ginger bread man cookie, I have too, its tasty, kids like to bite the head off first. I don't know what I am talking about, if you were smart enough, and have enough baking skill, you would know the answer to your question has been answered 20+ times over. Now why does all those treats remind me of EID, must be my hungry stomach.
 
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