India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

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_Anonymous_ said:
That's what I'm driving at. Why would they need orders from Delhi for doing so? There's clearly a cock eyed view towards security related stuff among our security managers.
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An order is not always a permission but information in disguise. They confirmed from delhi if some one from Indian side is also doing the same. Pata chala ki apna hi urdha diya , veer javano ne :ROFLMAO:
_Anonymous_ said:
Come on man. These aren't your Predator kind of drones. These are the ones which often carry payloads of anywhere between 10-20 kgs worth of arms, ammo, drugs, etc across the Punjab. I've no clue if these can be deployed across the LoC for similar operations given the terrain there as opposed to the plains in Punjab.
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Very easily deployable. Arrey bhai hum tho patang ko drone bana ke 100 100 g powder ghuma dein ;) any drone toy can be modified. See on you tube many jerks make rockets at home now days.
These are small things now.
 
Ashutosh said:
Read up on weapon sytems. You cannot simply point out a drone in an open sky they are not the off the shelf toys... they are made to evade visual identification and have the foot print of a large bird that radars ususally filter out.
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It's not tough to detect a drone , i can build a radar at home for such as an amateur, just requires few materials. Only the soldiers which come from villages are need to be taught how to operate on equipment other wise during my collage times school kids used to build drone locking system using VHF transmitters and receivers, so they used to come to us for guidance in design and cost for their projects.

Duniya bohot agey chali gayi hi. Raat ko a drone is easily visible in IR cam or highly sensitive motion sensors based on doppler shift and acoustics. They sense the roation of their rotory wings and picks up the distortion as a curve on the screen every 5 seconds.


India doesn't need to run to Israel or France for this to get detectors.
 
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Ashutosh said:
Read up on weapon sytems. You cannot simply point out a drone in an open sky they are not the off the shelf toys... they are made to evade visual identification and have the foot print of a large bird that radars ususally filter out.
Click to expand...
What about DMRs? Can't they do the job?
 
Ashutosh said:
Read up on weapon sytems. You cannot simply point out a drone in an open sky they are not the off the shelf toys... they are made to evade visual identification and have the foot print of a large bird that radars ususally filter out.
Click to expand...

The comment was in context of a query on manpads for BSF. Manpads are not the right solution for these drones.

I did experiment with drones of this type for a client cross dock. The paint scheme Pakistan uses is something I am not aware of. But these drones actually don’t gain a lot of height (compared to the real ones) and they are not intended to take damage from even small arms.
 
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DivineHeretic said:
A detailed reply to your questions will require an essay I'm afraid. However I will try to present my opinions in brief. Regret the delay, been busy with research.

To answer the second question first, I assert that the new IBGs in th envisoned configuration are far superior in concentration and balance of firepower as compared to the erstwhile heavy tier 1 formations referred to (1 armored div of 2000s for example). Sure on paper the IBGs are short on firepower vs the tier 1 formations. However as history will prove, none of the elements of tier 1 formations of IA of equivalent size have been able to operate cohesively in wars. As such, even though the held a higher theoretical volume of firepower, they never could amass and contentrate that firepower effectively. they were also lumbering giants, operating very carefully, defensive in mindset even on offensive operations, refusing to take targets of opportunity. A brief reading of 1 Armored Div's actions in 1965 would confirm my statements. In contrast, the new IBGs are designed for high intensity, concentrated firepower, designed to overwhelm and storm positions. Recent wargames have also confirmed that being able to punch through enemy positions is more dependent on absolute ferocity and rate of accurate firepower, a sharp thrust of the dagger vs the heavy blows of the sledgehammer. Further, the mindset is completely different. The commanders from company level onwards here are expected to assault and strike deep. Its the mindet change that's been tested over the past 2 decades of war games.

Now, PA's doctrine of using smaller, ATGM battalions to hold superior Armored brigades is informed from past experiences of conventional conflict with IA and internal exercises/simulations of such asymmetric combat. There are certain major flaws with taking the past PA's experiences as is without setting the context. It is true that PA light formations in the past have managed to stem superior IA forces on several occassions in 1965 & 1971 wars. An example would be the disappointing performance of 1 Armored division in 1965. But as I stated earlier, the 1965 & 1971 IA heavy formations were severely lacking in cohesion. The most they managed was to get one brigade attacking at any moment of time. further, they were stymied by cautious, slow reacting commanders who frankly had no business commanding armored forces. Given such a scenario, it wasn't surprising that PA inferior formations could hold them off, or delay them. In fact, when some of the IA formations actually stalled in 1965, they had suffered less than 300 casualties across a corps level front, with no major loss of combat effectiveness, a clear indication that the offensive lacked the weight and intensity required of a strike formation. Compare that with the Wehrmacht's panzer divisions: attacks would be carried out with a ferocity that formations several times larger would recoil and be pushed back. This happened right up until the end of 1944.

Finally as far as attacking PA positions held by light ATGM units (Light AT Battalions) are concerned, I imagine the strategy will be similar to that of Army Group South's in the Battle of Kursk vs the strongpoint based defensive doctrine of Stavka. The wehrmacht battlegroups would identify areas for ingress and concentrate very fire on defending strongpoints, panzers grenadiers supported by Panzers supported by artillery supported by air support attacking to shatter the strongpoints. Breaches would immediately be taken advantage of with fast moving formations which would storm the positions and advance as rapidly as possible until the next strongpoint at which they'd again concentrate. The IA IBGs are particularly suited for such an assault style, given the force structure. If done right, light formations cannot hold out against such firepower supremacy for long. The question i can they break through the first line before reinforcements arrive to relieve the shattered forces.

The successful implementation of such intense assaults will depend heavily on IA's ability to quickly concentrate accurate, overwhelming firepower against positions. That requires a degree of air superiority and the availablity of intense CAS aircrafts. A well placed strike by 4 ACs dropping 2000 pounders guided by ground CAS controllers can demolish strongpoints in a single blow, and render denfenders incapable of combat.
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Nice,

will press you on the effect of dismal arty numbers and it's effect on IBG's effectiveness. Especially towed arty and SPH's.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
That's what I'm driving at. Why would they need orders from Delhi for doing so? There's clearly a cock eyed view towards security related stuff among our security managers.
Click to expand...

unpopular view but here it goes. There is an institutional paranoia in the babus about Armed forces taking initiatives. There have cases where good officers have been punished for simply giving it back to Pakistan. No one wants to stick their necks out in such cases then.
 
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Jaymax said:
unpopular view but here it goes. There is an institutional paranoia in the babus about Armed forces taking initiatives. There have cases where good officers have been punished for simply giving it back to Pakistan. No one wants to stick their necks out in such cases then.
Click to expand...
Not unpopular. There has been many such examples in the past. TSD comes to mind as the most recent one.
 
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Anyone feels restoration of Postpaid mobile phones in Kashmir coincides with FATF upcoming meet for Pakistan's blacklist and may be a trap for Pakistani state?

Almost all Pakistanis online are bleeding from rectum after India announced restoring 4 million mobile services in Kashmir. Now will Pakistan wait for FATF to conclude its proceeding or will calm and peace in valley make them nervous enough to do something stupid?
 
Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
5 PART SERIES
UAV intrusion in Punjab leads to anti-drone solutions.
1.DRONE GUN
It jams the signal between hostile drone & drone pilot, thereby grounding it.
Range 2 Km.
2.DRONE CATCHERS
Capable of locking onto hostile UAV in air & net it from upto 20 mtrs away..1/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376581772709890
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
3. SKY WALL
Shoulder mounted cannon,uses compressed air to launch a net that brings down enemy drone from100 mtrs in 1 piece.
4. SKY FENCE
System uses series of signal disruptors, mounted on Towers to jam flight guidance of drones, disrupt direction & total disorientation....2/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376608700223488
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
5.ATHENA
US made 30 KV Giant Lasers mounted on Towers which blast multiple hostile UAVs out of the sky.
6.DRONE MALWARE
Hacking an enemy drone in midair, before it can damage is a great feat. Malware kills on-board autopilot, takes control remotely & bringing it home safely..3/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376623732576256
)



Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
7.RAYTHON PHASER
System uses microwaves to disable hostile drones weighing
< 20 kg & flying at altitudes upto 3,500' at speeds upto 200 knots. It disrupts hostile drone's electric field.
Mounted on tower/ trucks, Phaser can destroy 33 drones, 3 at a time. .......4/5 Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) on Twitter (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376652056707072
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
8.INTERCEPTOR
Anti drone "Drone". Designed to bring down hostile UAVs by smashing into them from under-neath at > 160kms. ......5/5

5 PART SERIES - MUST READ Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) on Twitter (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376661267415041
)
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
5 PART SERIES
UAV intrusion in Punjab leads to anti-drone solutions.
1.DRONE GUN
It jams the signal between hostile drone & drone pilot, thereby grounding it.
Range 2 Km.
2.DRONE CATCHERS
Capable of locking onto hostile UAV in air & net it from upto 20 mtrs away..1/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376581772709890
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
3. SKY WALL
Shoulder mounted cannon,uses compressed air to launch a net that brings down enemy drone from100 mtrs in 1 piece.
4. SKY FENCE
System uses series of signal disruptors, mounted on Towers to jam flight guidance of drones, disrupt direction & total disorientation....2/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376608700223488
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
5.ATHENA
US made 30 KV Giant Lasers mounted on Towers which blast multiple hostile UAVs out of the sky.
6.DRONE MALWARE
Hacking an enemy drone in midair, before it can damage is a great feat. Malware kills on-board autopilot, takes control remotely & bringing it home safely..3/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376623732576256
)



Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
7.RAYTHON PHASER
System uses microwaves to disable hostile drones weighing
< 20 kg & flying at altitudes upto 3,500' at speeds upto 200 knots. It disrupts hostile drone's electric field.
Mounted on tower/ trucks, Phaser can destroy 33 drones, 3 at a time. .......4/5 Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) on Twitter (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376652056707072
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
8.INTERCEPTOR
Anti drone "Drone". Designed to bring down hostile UAVs by smashing into them from under-neath at > 160kms. ......5/5

5 PART SERIES - MUST READ Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) on Twitter (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376661267415041
)
Click to expand...

just curious. How much do 7.62 rounds cost?
 
Hey guys pardon me if my idea looks naive.

But I was thinking suppose if India decides to go for Gilgit Baltistan. Now this area is mountainous with enemy bunkers located on the hill sides at such an angle that it will be difficult(resource intensive) to take all of them out using aerial bombardments. They will also make movement of our troops quite difficult. And also we certainly can't know the positions of every such bunker before.

Suppose, we come up with mini suicide drones. These drones will have IR cameras equipped with AI to easily identity a bunker from say a regular bush. They will initially work in scouting mode, flying at low speeds and as soon they detect a bunker, they identify the opening, thrust inside and kaboom. Such technology is available to identify bunkers using AI and machine learning etc. I think this can be a cheap way to take out thousands of bunkers along the hills and make it easier for regular IA troops to advance forward.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
5 PART SERIES
UAV intrusion in Punjab leads to anti-drone solutions.
1.DRONE GUN
It jams the signal between hostile drone & drone pilot, thereby grounding it.
Range 2 Km.
2.DRONE CATCHERS
Capable of locking onto hostile UAV in air & net it from upto 20 mtrs away..1/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376581772709890
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
3. SKY WALL
Shoulder mounted cannon,uses compressed air to launch a net that brings down enemy drone from100 mtrs in 1 piece.
4. SKY FENCE
System uses series of signal disruptors, mounted on Towers to jam flight guidance of drones, disrupt direction & total disorientation....2/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376608700223488
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
5.ATHENA
US made 30 KV Giant Lasers mounted on Towers which blast multiple hostile UAVs out of the sky.
6.DRONE MALWARE
Hacking an enemy drone in midair, before it can damage is a great feat. Malware kills on-board autopilot, takes control remotely & bringing it home safely..3/5 (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376623732576256
)



Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
7.RAYTHON PHASER
System uses microwaves to disable hostile drones weighing
< 20 kg & flying at altitudes upto 3,500' at speeds upto 200 knots. It disrupts hostile drone's electric field.
Mounted on tower/ trucks, Phaser can destroy 33 drones, 3 at a time. .......4/5 Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) on Twitter (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376652056707072
)


Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) (@Brig_Raj) Tweeted:
8.INTERCEPTOR
Anti drone "Drone". Designed to bring down hostile UAVs by smashing into them from under-neath at > 160kms. ......5/5

5 PART SERIES - MUST READ Brigadier Raj Khanna, SM, VSM (V) on Twitter (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1183376661267415041
)
Click to expand...


Hacking a drone? Well students in Singapore have already found a solution for that by noticing a deviation in the route and other parameters and by the time it gets hacked it will be already completing it's mission as India is not 9000miles away from Pakistan. Tell this bridadier that he should only advise what he is good in. That's how to fire and from where and when to fire.

Students from Indian average unis must be given chance to develop such radars they can do it within one year and slam it on the face of these babukhor Brigadiers.

aise log military mein hai to procurement and R&D in defense technology will always be a problem. Kuch pata wata hota nahi ajatey hai uth kar yeh log.
 
Last edited:
Jaymax said:
@Falcon - why is PA letting us kick the seven shades of hell out of them and still coming for more with no major changes in its approach ?

does it strike as odd to you?
Click to expand...


Not much of an option. It is not exactly as if we are not taking hits too. But the proportionality is much skewed.

My disenchantment with the present dispensation's policy is that there is a limit to how long one can keep imposing costs purely through diplomatic and military means. The third dimension - the one which is missing, is an major upscaling in (c)overt action to work on dissolution of the state from within.

The only way that India as a nation can remain safe, and here I would especially like to recall my friend Vijies (have I got it right @_Anonymous_ ?), is by launching a sustained campaign against Islamic fundamentalism, both within and without the Indian territories. India needs to shrug off the baggage of partition that has seen us adopt policies that have not only encouraged but emboldened sustained attacks against the unified fabric of Indian society in name of secularism.
 
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fyodor said:
Hey guys pardon me if my idea looks naive.

But I was thinking suppose if India decides to go for Gilgit Baltistan. Now this area is mountainous with enemy bunkers located on the hill sides at such an angle that it will be difficult(resource intensive) to take all of them out using aerial bombardments. They will also make movement of our troops quite difficult. And also we certainly can't know the positions of every such bunker before.

Suppose, we come up with mini suicide drones. These drones will have IR cameras equipped with AI to easily identity a bunker from say a regular bush. They will initially work in scouting mode, flying at low speeds and as soon they detect a bunker, they identify the opening, thrust inside and kaboom. Such technology is available to identify bunkers using AI and machine learning etc. I think this can be a cheap way to take out thousands of bunkers along the hills and make it easier for regular IA troops to advance forward.
Click to expand...
Army Buys Small Suicide Drones To Break Up Hostile Swarms And Potentially More
 
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randomradio said:
AFAIK, there is no mention of India having acquired Nimrod in open source.

Also, there is little information out about Heron TP as well. So we do not know what weapons were acquired along with the 10 TPs. The size of the weapons deal is likely too small to entice media attention, which is unfortunate. Or the MoD has successfully managed to keep a lid on it.

Anyway, for any action across the LoC, Nirmod makes a whole lot more sense than Delilah. Delilah is a medium range cruise missile with a range of 250Km whereas Nimrod is like the cheap version of Spike NLOS.
Click to expand...


Interestingly, Nimrod also has a Ground Launched version. Wikipedia indicates an unknown export customer operating it. As far as I recall, the Nimrod was proposed along with Heron TP by Israelis to India. The other export customer is Germany, which is not the likely candidate. Turkey operates a localized version of same, but again, I doubt it is them.
 
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