India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[Hellfire]

I guess they were expecting a retaliation from us as they were trying to attack our Brig HQ, Along with one or two Su30's...... They wanted us to fall to the trap that's why they had their entire assets airborne.....The story or the script changed with capture of Abhi.... and I believe Mi17 crash also pulled us back.....

Adding on to what @nair has said here.

The aim of Pakistan by trying to goad us into a reaction was to make it into an Indo-Pak confrontation over Kashmir and thus, relegate the core issue of Terror to backburner. Had we acted as per their wishes, we would have ended playing in to their narrative. This is my personal opinion. By not taking the bait and re-insisting that Indian actions on Balakote were purely anti-terror, we kept terror as the focus. The benefits have come and will continue to come.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

ISRO Claim sir? When did this happen? Can you please post a source? @Falcon

 

[Hellfire]

Okay I understand that they were not allowed to fire first... But after being fired upon why didn't they retaliate...?

Because the ROE was clear that there should not be any action undertaken by own forces that do not appear defensive in nature. Like I posted earlier, the PAF fighters were egressing from the no fly zone and shooting one down as it egressed would have led to a situation wherein we would have had a wreckage into their own side out of no fly zone, thereby allowing Pakistan to play victim and claim Indian aggression.

If you recollect, the F-16 which has disappeared along with the crew, fell within the no fly zone limit, hence the deathly silence by Pakistan.

 

[screambowl]

I shall agree. However, we saw a very strange mix of sectorial jamming from A-50 and some sort of jamming from ISRO (as per the ISRO claims).

Did we get time to do all that?

 

[Tsunami]

Everyone keep saying had Abhinandan not captured that day situation would have been different. So what was the plan???

 

[Hellfire]

@Falcon I have a genuine question.
You say we lost more men trying to recover dead bodies than in KIA. Why did we do that? Like what is this fixation with recovering dead bodies when that's resulting in more dead bodies? Isn't that paradoxical if not plain stupid?

Some strange phenomenon on why men fight. Is it for nation? You can say. Is it for your unit izzat? Many Military Leaders of great standing have written on this aspect too. Ironically, it is usually for the man next to you. Your mate, your buddy, your brother-at-arms (now sister-at-arms too).

You have to understand the psyche of the soldier. When I was quoting the member, rather heartlessly it may appear, it was to drive in the point that as a soldier, no one would wish to go to war, especially to avenge the soldier's death. It is only the soldier who understands the terror and agony of war and the costs that get imposed. But when the buddy gets hit, the biggest fear is not of own safety but of the pain and suffering of the buddy. The thought that the guy next to you may be alive and needs to be saved drives you forward, that his remains may be mutilated, drives you forward, that he may be taken alive and tortured, drives you forward.

The member laments lack of response/revenge. Clearly, member does not know the armed forces. We exact our revenge, slowly, but surely. Not every time is it made public, not everything is made public.

Those who know of me here, may well recall that the so called Op Ginger, I had let out the information back in 2014. For 3 we took officially 8. But the team from 4 PARA SF which undertook the mission, had more than that in the kitty. We not only exact revenge, we exact interests by manifolds too.

It was never a military order or a mission to retrieve own fallen. But it was an observation made by officers and men of the concerned units. That their fallen will not be allowed to be left behind. At times, there were more volunteers on what was clearly a suicidal mission of recovery than needed. Soldiers have taken umbrage at not being taken along on a recovery mission, felt insulted and humiliated because the commanding officer decided that too many were there and recovery teams needed to be smaller. What do I call that? I do not know. Insanity?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Everyone keep saying had Abhinandan not captured that day situation would have been different. So what was the plan???

They had attacked our military targets in retaliation for us taking pre-emptive non military target strike against terror camps. The retaliation planned by India was to take out their military targets and to teach them how it should be done and what all we could do. It was already known that we will try to strike our military targets and preparations to thwart them were put in place even before a go ahead was given for Balakot strike.

 

[Hellfire]

ISRO Claim sir? When did this happen? Can you please post a source? @Falcon

Man, I shall have to read tonnes of news clips for that. Will post it whenever I do come across it. There was an article on how the SOWs were jammed and it had ISRO's role also with Chief ISRO (?) being quoted. I was also intrigued. It indicated Space based jammers, which would interfere with data transmission to SOWs.

 

[Hellfire]

Did we get time to do all that?

We had A-50 well in airspace to undertake the necessary tasks. Without delving on to the rotation of platforms and the schedule, can safely say that at no time was there a situation where there was no AWACS in air.

 

[Tsunami]

They had attacked our military targets in retaliation for us taking pre-emptive non military target strike against terror camps. The retaliation planned by India was to take out their military targets and to teach them how it should be done and what all we could do. It was already known that we will try to strike our military targets and preparations to thwart them were put in place even before a go ahead was given for Balakot strike.

So what stopped us from doing same after 1st March. I find it hard to believe that we would have attacked there military installations when story would have been that Pakistan tried but couldn't do anything.

 

[Domobran7]

If you mean a return to the old normal where every now & then there are terrorist outrages on a large scale across India apart from the odd civilian or security forces killed every other day thanks to Pakistan sponsored terrorism without inviting Indian retribution then it's not going to happen.

As long as retaliation is assured you can be sure there's going to be escalation which as the years go by & Pakistan becomes more isolated , more weakened economically & in terms of its internal security without any let up in its primary role in sponsoring terrorism in both Afghanistan & India, there's going to be a denouement one way or the other. And China is an interested party not an honest broker.

Maybe. Problem is, if Pakistan collapses, only thing it will open a path for is a hundred different militant islamist groups. Pakistan-sponsored terrorists are better than independent jihadis, because latter are not constrained by nation-state goals and security concerns.

 

[vstol Jockey]

So what stopped us from doing same after 1st March. I find it hard to believe that we would have attacked there military installations when story would have been that Pakistan tried but couldn't do anything.

Please understand that military actions are not decided at spur of the moment. After Pulwama, when the CCS met and decided to avenge it, they must have gone thru tons of options and also gone thru what will Pakistan do as a retaliation for any of the options undertaken by us. The decision is then taken for every likely enemy action and also in case of any action of the enemy not thought of. The forces are moved and deployed accordingly for each such thought out scenerio. Only after that a go ahead is given. You don't plan such action on the trot. The retaliation by PAF against our military installations in J&K was one such option of the enemy which was deliberated upon and a plan to counter it was put in place. IN was moved forward and kept ready for this very reason. Plus the IA had moved some forces and also brought to stand by some other major elements. This was to take care of any strike by PA across our borders. And IAF was told to hold on and not do counter strikes as the job of retaliation was given to IN and Missile regiments.
PAF strike was very much thought of and IAF was told to DEFEND the air space. But Abhi did what he did and as a result the counter planned for the actions of PAF was not put into motion. We now had to ask for his release and as a result assure the interlocutors that we will hold back our retaliation. That is how that Qatl ki Raat gave a lifeline to Pakistan and especially PAF and Karachi.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Maybe. Problem is, if Pakistan collapses, only thing it will open a path for is a hundred different militant islamist groups. Pakistan-sponsored terrorists are better than independent jihadis, because latter are not constrained by nation-state goals and security concerns.

If Pakistan is made to collapse. Terrorism will be confined to Pak Punjab only. The FATA and Khyber Pakhtunkwa will go under Afghanistan after dissolving Durandline. Balochinstan will be an Independednt nation and we will merge Sindh in India. Sindh has largest number of minorities of Pakistan and also not as hostile to India. Plus they do accept Hindus as their ancestors and have a very strong SindhRashtra feeling.

 

[Hellfire]

Edit- The policies of the government are not written in stone, the way you talked, seems like you are the one making policies for India. Modi, Doval, Shah, RAW/IB chiefs ne tumhe theka nahin diya.

From Sep 3, 2019

Two days back (or was it yesterday?) I shared an info with @nair .. which I often do and I do not post here as am busy with other things. By month end Cellular services in Valley will be restored. As of now, only CAPFs and Police along with Administration officials, SIMs are active. Neither the Armed Forces, nor the civilians have their SIMs active. Hilarious - our army men are making expensive satellite phone calls to their homes... while police forces talk away on mobiles.

Also, internet will be restored only by January 2020. Or December 2019 at the earliest, if all goes well.

source: India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

And now-

99% J&K restriction-free, postpaid mobile phones to be restored from Monday: Govt

Delay being due to 'technical' reasons on part of Government. (aka infrastructure ugradation for robust anti-terror operations)

 

[screambowl]

Man, I shall have to read tonnes of news clips for that. Will post it whenever I do come across it. There was an article on how the SOWs were jammed and it had ISRO's role also with Chief ISRO (?) being quoted. I was also intrigued. It indicated Space based jammers, which would interfere with data transmission to SOWs.

I don't understand one thing. Why would one put efforts to jam something from space especially the weapon. It's more sensible to jam the launch platform, in this case navigation and communication of the aircraft. And for this a burst of pulse is required which is produce by powerful battery.
Our satellites do not have that much of power or battery.
And it's not easy to jam any navigation and communication digitally because it's encrypted. Distortion, scramble, etc is required. Which I doubt our satellites are capable of this.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I don't understand one thing. Why would one put efforts to jam something from space especially the weapon. It's more sensible to jam the launch platform, in this case navigation and communication of the aircraft. And for this a burst of pulse is required which is produce by powerful battery.
Our satellites do not have that much of power or battery.
And it's not easy to jam any navigation and communication digitally because it's encrypted. Distortion, scramble, etc is required. Which I doubt our satellites are capable of this.

Jamming is not just about blanking a reciever, it is also about feeding wrong and false info.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Maybe. Problem is, if Pakistan collapses, only thing it will open a path for is a hundred different militant islamist groups. Pakistan-sponsored terrorists are better than independent jihadis, because latter are not constrained by nation-state goals and security concerns.

Which ever way you see it, the difference between Pakistan sponsored terrorists and the so called independent terrorists is blurring. The only thing keeping the rest of the world including India from tackling them is the fact that they possess N weapons. You take that out of the equation and the other collateral damages one suffers can always be recompensed thru retribution and other measures.

 

[Enquencher]

For one statement of support by Turks on Kashmir, Pakistan gets knocked into an alliance totally opposite to Saudi and UAE in Turks war against Kurds. Ironically, Pakistan's predicament is that India issued statement against Turkey's aggression and standing with Gulf which will further drive wedge between Pak-Saudi already stressed relationship.

What a comedy fate plays. Pak always ends up with more and more losses with weird unstable alliances which it didn't intend to join but somehow joins because of their nature to be a minion.

Coming days will be fun if UN passes resolution against Turkey. Million dollar question is will Pak throw Turkey or Saudi under the bus when push comes to shove. LoL.

Both saudi and turkey will throw pakistan under the bus..

 

[Domobran7]

Which ever way you see it, the difference between Pakistan sponsored terrorists and the so called independent terrorists is blurring. The only thing keeping the rest of the world including India from tackling them is the fact that they possess N weapons. You take that out of the equation and the other collateral damages one suffers can always be recompensed thru retribution and other measures.

And part of the problem are nuclear weapons. Disregarding their possible usage if Pakistan is attacked, government collapse would mean God knows who would get access to them.

Would have been better if Pak never got nukes, but that ship has sailed...

 

[_Anonymous_]

And part of the problem are nuclear weapons. Disregarding their possible usage if Pakistan is attacked, government collapse would mean God knows who would get access to them.

Would have been better if Pak never got nukes, but that ship has sailed...

Those N weapons , it's platforms, storage facilities, production sites, etc would've to be accounted for before any decisive action against Pakistan is undertaken. No 2 questions about it.