India-Russia Relations
- Thread starter Butter Chicken
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I have been a big proponent of Indo-Russian ties. I have had a lot of interactions with Russian technicians and pilots, and they all have been wonderful individuals and have tremendous respect and affection for their Indian counterparts. Times have changed, and Russian politicians have transformed their foreign policy into a mechanism of just extorting money. Indians on the other hand to are to blame as it has distanced itself over the years on standing with Russia when it is in need.
India needs to move away from defense exports and focus on local manufacturing, and start creating real outreach programs into countries that are really interested in having access to Indian markets.
India needs to move away from defense exports and focus on local manufacturing, and start creating real outreach programs into countries that are really interested in having access to Indian markets.
Your individual experience doesn't mean that the average russian actually cares about ties with India. The status quo of the relationship should continue but we have lost a lot of ground when it comes to ties vis-a-vis China. The election of Biden also makes the relationship with the Americans extremely shaky.
The strategic autonomy drama should continue and we should focus our relationship with European and other Asian players than the big guys.
Indo-Russian relationship is now an abusive joke of a relationship with the Russians now trying to play hard to get. Let's just hope we get the s400's without much drama...
I think we are wrapping up our weapons relations with Russia over the long term. There should be some more aerospace projects pending discussion or signature, but I think we are reaching the point where our own industry will begin to deliver what we need. Nothing to do with Russia though.
5 years from now , IAF will demand
SU 57
Russia will throw in a Few BULAVA SLBMs and S 500 as well And we will celebrate with Vodka ( Pun Intended )
5 years from now , IAF will demand
SU 57
Russia will throw in a Few BULAVA SLBMs and S 500 as well And we will celebrate with Vodka ( Pun Intended )
Yeah, but both those examples, S-500 and Su-57, are part of the aerospace industry. So we will still be open to some imports there, but everywhere else there's only going to be cooperation or nothing rather than direct imports like before.
My larger point is that We should NEVER give away our relationship with Russia because US is totally unreliable
US and China can enter into a big trade deal and then US will dump QUAD and Asia
So at least Russia is our time tested friend
There is scope for Collaborations in Material Sciences, Welding technology as well as JV's with TMC firms like raduga, Mashinostroyeniya, vympel, irkut, etc. But there is also a lack of suitable partners in India to effectively absorb technology.
Mishra Dhatu is a prime candidate to benefit from metallurgy from Russia for applications in aerospace, ground systems, naval application, but they sit there twiddling their thumbs. BEL, BHEL, BDL, Kalyani, Sail, OFB, all prime candidates to literally create an entire market of derivative products to bypass western sanctions. There is enormous opportunities still in the Russian defence related markets, and Indian firms too lazy to leverage such advantages.
Indian R&D in small arms sucks, until things improve nothing stops OFB to ink an R&D deal with Izveshk, Tomorrow if OFB India offers NSV, OSV96,
Kord, Grach etc, that will instantly boost the OFB portfolio.
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Fighter jet -check
MBT- Check (118 mk1A 67ton on order and later mk2 which is 60ton)
Navy Ships-check(Only submarine designing capabilities are lacking)
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Like 270 billion dollar Oil deal ?
Or like S400 and Su35 deal ?
Why have double standards ?
Sure. But our weapons imports from all quarters is going to reduce to a significant margin. It doesn't matter whether it's Russia, US or France.
All tried and failed. Metallurgy is something nobody is going to part with. For now France and UK are willing to part with old generation engine cores, so that's about the limit we will be getting from elsewhere. Russia's simply refused outright to part with materials tech. Even after signing contracts for ToT, they didn't even give us the tech required to make T-90 barrels, so we had to make our own, even the downgraded stuff like armour, we used our own tech. The same with Vikrant's steel, we had to make our own. Our MKI deal comes without materials tech for the engine, we import it from Russia. The same with Brahmos, we signed a contract to make the engine in India and they later cancelled it.
Also, any cooperation deals, like JVs, the ToT does not involve primary technologies. It's also why MRFA and most other tenders have reduced their ToT requirement to 50% instead of 65%. Most companies are simply unwilling to part with core technologies.
You want materials, you have to make them on your own. They can't be bought using money.
For most other areas where DRDO has failed, like small arms, the private sector is going to have to bridge the gap.
I will not comment on AL31 core, that is something our MoD (led by Sharad Pawar) bungled up. No such issues ever existed for any other license-produced engine like say the Mig21 which had zero MoD participation and was negotiated by technocrats between HAL and MIG.
Nevertheless, I have a feeling that a lot of such projects were never explored with russian partners. Our infatuation with cheap stuff and kickbacks is so overwhelming, that we often ignore/obfuscate/cheat/ the fine print, like the most recent one is the mindless AKM deal that this government has brokered.
You are looking at JV's from a perspective of meeting some indigenization number or a ToT value, what I am suggesting a true JV to develop new verticals by smart product placement and such business cases can be easily be justified even by the Russians. Even today American Defense companies have dedicated Indian operations that are actively lobbying for orders (NASAMS); while UAC/RAC has zero independent presence in India and operates through GoI JV's which are filled with incompetent nincompoops.
Hopefully in the next decade or so we can see some development.
The Soviet Union was different from Russia. The Russians are not interested in creating a competitor. And they admit that early Soviet policies were a mistake, which allowed China to build its own aviation industry back during the early Cold War.
As for the example of lobbying, the Americans are doing it through the private industry while Russia is doing it through DPSUs. The Americans are also not interested in creating a competitor, hence there's little to no high end ToT in their deals either.
I think your expectations are radically different from reality. The Russians only want us to buy their tech, and without ToT. The S-400 also came without any ToT. They are also pushing for Su-57 exports to India with limited to no ToT. They have even offered to sell 126 Su-35s to India straight from Russian factories with only CKD deals very quickly, you know, to bolster our numbers, which require little to no ToT. The American offer of ToT for fighter jets involves no engine and radar ToT.
The bigger India grows, the less inclined all these countries are in handing over technology. It's also why the Russians are now more interested in JVs, where technology is restricted to the developer instead of shared, which is actually why we are removing as much Russian tech from Brahmos as possible. Both US and Russia are actively lobbying to restrict India's domestic R&D. Why on earth will they help improve our industry?
I think it's the opposite. It's Russia that's cosying up with China which India does not like rather than the US and India getting closer, although even that plays a part here. Let's not forget these summits are important to Russia because we always sign billions of dollars worth of deals during this time, primarily in defence and other strategic sectors, like new nuclear reactors. So it's unlikely that Russia will blackmail us at tremendous loss to themselves.
I guess US pressure on India to cut ties with Russia is working. This could only be a small welcome gift to Biden though (Democrats hate Russia), so it's only a one-off thing. Let's not forget that India-Russia cooperation is still of much greater significance right now.
Putin doesn’t rule out a future Russia-China military alliance
Putin's statement signaled deepening ties between Moscow and Beijing amid growing tensions in their relations with the United States.
www.militarytimes.com
All Indo-Russian defence contracts implemented as per schedule: Foreign Secretary
India does not see the Indo-Pacific Region as a club of limited members nor as a new theatre for geostrategic contestation. It includes all nations in this geography as also others beyond who have a stake in it aimed at Security and Growth for All in the Region (SAGAR), he emphasised.
India, Russia less useful to each other now. Disagreements will only grow
Like all international partnerships, including the India-Russia relations, the China-Russia partnership is one of convenience.
theprint.in