India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .

[Rajput Lion]

By preliminary examining the recovered PL 15, DRDO said that there in nothing worth reverse engineering. Sensors and data link used in Astra Mk1 are far superior. What the recovered PL 15 will provide will be the study to jam it.

Of course, dual-pulse motor, Ku-Band AESA seeker all have already been developed by DRDO and maybe even deployed in limited numbers(Astra2). Our Astra 2 would be superior to PL-15 as I said in the other thread.

And if we can deploy Gandiva before PL-21(Chinese Meteor), we'll not only have parity but dominance over PLAAF too.

 

[HariPrasad]

Will wait to hear more informed opinions on what has happened till now.
Broadly I could observe the following.

Indian forces has mauled Pakistan beyond it's expectation.
Indian AD has worked phenomenally well, I stand surprised,
Against Drones, our AD performed remarkably well, ECM has rumored to have defeated most of Chinese and Turkish drones.
our Ack ack now has formidable night vision and targetting system.
Gunners did what do best, reminded us what good training achieves with legacy systems
Pechoras.... ha ha pechoras....Pechoras took down everything.
Most of our PGM's entered unobstructed, either ECM or just lack of AD availability in enemy space, and chinese MRLS are absolute shit.

The lesson that we set out to teach was delivered in style, poor chaps are now using deceit and guile for face saving measure.

@nair @suryakiran

The great success of India's AD is attributed to the sensor fusion system called Akash Teer. It collects the Data from various ground-based radars, AWA& Cs, air force and army radars and sensors and integrate them into one virtual reality and alerts the system to which the target is allocated. It allocates the target to different systems. This provided extra time for missiles to shoot down incoming enemy missiles. Anti aircraft guns were upgraded with radar and AI to make them autonomous which took down many enemy missiles. All of our AD systems worked exceptionally well.

Of course, dual-pulse motor, Ku-Band AESA seeker all have already been developed by DRDO and maybe even deployed in limited numbers(Astra2). Our Astra 2 would be superior to PL-15 as I said in the other thread.

And if we can deploy Gandiva before PL-21(Chinese Meteor), we'll not only have parity but dominance over PLAAF too.

Even Astra Mk1 is far superior in technology. It has shorter range than PL 15. In BVR combat bellow 100 K.M., Astra may outperform PL 15 any time. As PL 15 has inferior sensor and data link, it is easy for any enemy plane to dodge PL15 than Astra. We saw that in this conflict.

 

[Lolwa]

The great success of India's AD is attributed to the sensor fusion system called Akash Teer. It collects the Data from various ground-based radars, AWA& Cs, air force and army radars and sensors and integrate them into one virtual reality and alerts the system to which the target is allocated. It allocates the target to different systems. This provided extra time for missiles to shoot down incoming enemy missiles. Anti aircraft guns were upgraded with radar and AI to make them autonomous which took down many enemy missiles. All of our AD systems worked exceptionally well.


Even Astra Mk1 is far superior in technology. It has shorter range than PL 15. In BVR combat bellow 100 K.M., Astra may outperform PL 15 any time. As PL 15 has inferior sensor and data link, it is easy for any enemy plane to dodge PL15 than Astra. We saw that in this conflict.

The astra mk1 needs to be made as good as the amraam D3. We need astra mk1a/1b/1c/1d upgradation program.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The astra mk1 needs to be made as good as the amraam D3. We need astra mk1a/1b/1c/1d upgradation program.

Astra MK2 would completely replace Astra 1 as our primary BVR. But we may still continue to manufacture it for export along with for our armed CCAs.

There is only that much you can do to improve a single-pulse missile. That's why the Americans switched to AIM-260. It's not just about max-range but interceptioen speed, end-game kinematics and higher NEZ hence a dual-pulse missile has substantial advantage over single-pulse ones in all the aforementioned aspects.

 

[Lolwa]

Astra MK2 would completely replace Astra 1 as our primary BVR. But we may still continue to manufacture it for export along with for our armed CCAs.

There is only that much you can do to improve a single-pulse missile. That's why the Americans switched to AIM-260. It's not just about max-range but interceptioen speed, end-game kinematics and higher NEZ hence a dual-pulse missile has substantial advantage over single-pulse ones in all the aforementioned aspects.

The aim120d3 is a single pulse bvr and has a performance similar to a dual pulse pl-15. Us not further improving and iterating on astra mk1 will be highly regretful.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The aim120d3 is a single pulse bvr and has a performance similar to a dual pulse pl-15. Us not further improving and iterating on astra mk1 will be highly regretful.

Nah, mate! AIM-120D3 is not in PL-15's league otherwise USAF wouldn't expedite AIM-260 JATM. Single pulse missile like AIM-120D3 uses all-boost propellant grain to reach high altitude and with advance GPS & INS falls down upon the enemy jet, hence reach 200kms range. But at that range their maneuverability suffers and are just coasting, so any aware target can get away rather easily.

PL-15 can reach 200km kms when fired at a high-altitude at Mach 1.2+ speed while maintaining high-velocity, high-intercept speed and end-game energy to pull 30G+ terminal maneuvers, making them several times more deadly than single-pulse AIM-120D3 type missiles.

 

[Lolwa]

Nah, mate! AIM-120D3 is not in PL-15's league otherwise USAF wouldn't expedite AIM-260 JATM. Single pulse missile like AIM-120D3 uses all-boost propellant grain to reach high altitude and with advance GPS & INS falls down upon the enemy jet, hence reach 200kms range. But at that range their maneuverability suffers and are just coasting, so any aware target can get away rather easily.

PL-15 can reach 200km kms when fired at a high-altitude at Mach 1.2+ speed while maintaining high-velocity, high-intercept speed and end-game energy to pull 30G+ terminal maneuvers, making them several times more deadly than single-pulse AIM-120D3 type missiles.

Should have said the pl-15E. Tbf the pl-15 series is in its own class of bvr missiles. It's far larger than the astra or amraam or derby.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1922181114313032034

 

[Rajput Lion]

Should have said the pl-15E. Tbf the pl-15 series is in its own class of bvr missiles. It's far larger than the astra or amraam or derby.

Not far larger. It's around 3.996m vs 3.84m of Astra 2. Its diameter is thicker at 200m, but Astra 2's mid-body diameter is also 190mm. We've made some novel breakthroughs in propulsion tech, so Astra 2 matches PL-15 in all "effective-range" parameters.

Similiarly Astra1 even though slightly smaller than PL-12A matches and exceeds its range. You should read my conversations with @LX1111 in the Astra missile thread of our forum. I thrased him/her so much that the poor soul tucked his/her tail and ran away. Lol.

 

[LX1111]

Not far larger. It's around 3.996m vs 3.84m of Astra 2. Its diameter is thicker at 200m, but Astra 2's mid-body diameter is also 190mm. We've made some novel breakthroughs in propulsion tech, so Astra 2 matches PL-15 in all "effective-range" parameters.

Similiarly Astra1 even though slightly smaller than PL-12A matches and exceeds its range. You should read my conversations with @LX1111 in the Astra missile thread of our forum. I thrased him/her so much that the poor soul tucked his/her tail and ran away. Lol.

Simply put, you think that PL12/PL15 are both eight-inch diameter missiles, while Indian and European missiles are both seven-inch diameter missiles, so you think Indian missiles are better than Chinese missiles.
I think the Indian Astra missile's range of 160KM is achieved at an altitude of 15KM, while the PL12 and PL15 missiles' range of over 200KM is achieved at an altitude of 10KM.
If at the same test altitude, the Astra missile may have only half the range of the PL15
Not to mention that Indian missiles do not have two-way data links and AESA guidance heads.

So you start to act like a little kid, rolling around on the floor and claiming victory.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Simply put, you think that PL12/PL15 are both eight-inch diameter missiles, while Indian and European missiles are both seven-inch diameter missiles, so you think Indian missiles are better than Chinese missiles.
I think the Indian Astra missile's range of 160KM is achieved at an altitude of 15KM, while the PL12 and PL15 missiles' range of over 200KM is achieved at an altitude of 10KM.
If at the same test altitude, the Astra missile may have only half the range of the PL15
Not to mention that Indian missiles do not have two-way data links and AESA guidance heads.

So you start to act like a little kid, rolling around on the floor and claiming victory.

Lol. Your own leaked documents showed SD-10's(PL-12) effective range as 70kms. You improved that with SD-10A(PL-12A) upto 100 kms but that is still inferior to Astra's 110kms range.

Astra 2 will simply be better than PL-15. Keep crying.......

 

[LX1111]

Lol. Your own leaked documents showed SD-10's(PL-12) effective range as 70kms. You improved that with SD-10A(PL-12A) upto 100 kms but that is still inferior to Astra's 110kms range.

Astra 2 will simply be better than PL-15. Keep crying.......

So you start to act like a little kid, rolling around on the floor and claiming victory

I have said it many times, India's test standard is 15KM, The testing standard in China is 10KM.so whether it is MK1 or MK2, its 110KM and 160KM range is far behind China.

 

[Rajput Lion]

So you start to act like a little kid, rolling around on the floor and claiming victory

I have said it many times, India's test standard is 15KM, The testing standard in China is 10KM.so whether it is MK1 or MK2, its 110KM and 160KM range is far behind China.

You're quoting old brochures while I'm giving you the latest updates. We saw how BrahMos destroyed your HQ-9/16 just as I had warned you in this thread itself few pages back while you're busy comparing BrahMos with a Mig-21, lol.

Accept it kid, Indian missile tech is just that much better than yours.

 

[LX1111]

You're quoting old brochures while I'm giving you the latest updates. We saw how BrahMos destroyed your HQ-9/16 just as I had warned you in this thread itself few pages back while you're busy comparing BrahMos with a Mig-21, lol.

Accept it kid, Indian missile tech is just that much better than yours.

We are getting off topic, kid, aren't we talking about air-to-air missiles?

You're quoting old brochures while I'm giving you the latest updates. We saw how BrahMos destroyed your HQ-9/16 just as I had warned you in this thread itself few pages back while you're busy comparing BrahMos with a Mig-21, lol.

Accept it kid, Indian missile tech is just that much better than yours.

I still agree that supersonic missiles have little chance of survival in the future. As for the achievements of BrahMos this time, it only proves the weakness of Pakistan's national air defense force.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We are getting off topic, kid, aren't we talking about air-to-air missiles?

Astra MK1 achieved longer range in test when fired from 6-7km altitude than what is touted for your SD-10A at 10kms.

I still agree that supersonic missiles have little chance of survival in the future. As for the achievements of BrahMos this time, it only proves the weakness of Pakistan's national air defense force.

Of course, "ignorance is bliss". Your Han arrogance couldn't stop BrahMos-A from destroying your HQ-9/16 into smithereens. Pakistanis now know that relying on Chinese junk is simply not safe enough. Lol.

 

[randomradio]

So what we aim to achieve from now untill 2045 is essentially aerial deterrence and not aerial supremacy wtr to China?

Depends on range. We don't have any intentions of matching the USAF's objectives. Our goal is to support the IA and conduct strike operations in depth areas meant to assist the IA. If they hit our civilian infra, we will be able to match that.

P.S do you think AMCA stealth level will be enough to penetrate contested spaces when it enters service? Or it will be a stelathy BVRM lobber and potential aerial command center controlling drones and other assets which will do the penetration? Personally I think the latter is a very achievable goal.

Yes, it will penetrate contested airspaces for its A2A missions, like conducting a fighter sweep, and of course A2G missions using standoff glide bombs. But hitting the most well-defended ground targets requires Ghatak. Tibet is big and high enough to have holes in Chinese defenses that can be exploited.

 

[randomradio]

I've different sources but all of them suggest heavy Chinese involvement. Just like Swift Retreat prepared us to thrash PAF this time around, rest assured that we'll thrash Chinese stuff if they get directly involved next-time around(like opening BDS to guide Pak PL-15s fired towards our jets).

Very interesting development is that USAF is looking to cancel 26 E-7s procurement and looking for their satellites to guide their long-range VLRAAMs like AIM-174 towards the target. In any next Indo-China war, we need to disable/disrupt/jam/spoof their BeiDou satellites otherwise J-16 could fire PL-17s from 300kms+ distance and they'd be guided via satellites and jeopardise our HVTs and other air-assets. This is novel domain of air-warfare that we're talking about(satellites tracking air targets and guiding missiles towards 'em) and this latest air-war might have Chinese way of testing their system as a precursor of future Sino-US war. We need to prepare accordingly to counter this threat whilst developing similar capability ourseleves. @randomradio

AWACS are not survivable in a real war, old news. We need some for peacetime though, or smaller operations like Sindoor.

And Beidou won't do what you're thinking. It provides rough estimates based on target emissions. You need SAR satellites with AMTI/GMTI for tracking and guiding munitions, and all big countries are developing this network. That's why that little GCAP radar won't be as useful when you have 30 satellites doing the job from above. That's also why the IAF is not interested in the current standards of platform-superiority, which is required when you are operating outside your support infra, like the B-21 is expected to.

 

[HariPrasad]

Astra MK2 would completely replace Astra 1 as our primary BVR. But we may still continue to manufacture it for export along with for our armed CCAs.

There is only that much you can do to improve a single-pulse missile. That's why the Americans switched to AIM-260. It's not just about max-range but interceptioen speed, end-game kinematics and higher NEZ hence a dual-pulse missile has substantial advantage over single-pulse ones in all the aforementioned aspects.

There were news that captured PL-15 was handed over to DRDO. After preliminary examination DRDO said that it uses inferior sensor and inferior data link. Nothing worth reverse engineering. However, it will be useful in developing countermeasures.

 

[HariPrasad]

Nah, mate! AIM-120D3 is not in PL-15's league otherwise USAF wouldn't expedite AIM-260 JATM. Single pulse missile like AIM-120D3 uses all-boost propellant grain to reach high altitude and with advance GPS & INS falls down upon the enemy jet, hence reach 200kms range. But at that range their maneuverability suffers and are just coasting, so any aware target can get away rather easily.

PL-15 can reach 200km kms when fired at a high-altitude at Mach 1.2+ speed while maintaining high-velocity, high-intercept speed and end-game energy to pull 30G+ terminal maneuvers, making them several times more deadly than single-pulse AIM-120D3 type missiles.

What about the sensor and data link. Sensors determines the location of target. If they cannot locate the target with utmost accuracy, missile will fail. Another important aspect is algorithm. The performance of Akash improved a lot with the refinement of algorithm. You test the missiles for various scenarios and refine algorithm. If algorithm and codes are not written precisely, missile will fail in scenarios for which algorithm is not perfected. Other aspect is anti Jaming capability and resistance to EW. Speed and range is definitely criterion but there are another criterion as well. This all put together decides the accuracy of missiles. From the war what we saw, it doesn't seem that PL 15 worked well.

 

[Lolwa]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1922556788928344109

 

[Lolwa]

What about the sensor and data link. Sensors determines the location of target. If they cannot locate the target with utmost accuracy, missile will fail. Another important aspect is algorithm. The performance of Akash improved a lot with the refinement of algorithm. You test the missiles for various scenarios and refine algorithm. If algorithm and codes are not written precisely, missile will fail in scenarios for which algorithm is not perfected. Other aspect is anti Jaming capability and resistance to EW. Speed and range is definitely criterion but there are another criterion as well. This all put together decides the accuracy of missiles. From the war what we saw, it doesn't seem that PL 15 worked well.

The Saab erieye was the real MVP for Pakistan. That's why the IAF was desperately targetting them. The j-10's effectiveness is severely depleted without the erieyes.