Indian AESA Radar Developments
- Thread starter ni8mare
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DRDO will begin testing this year, so 2-3 years for testing while HAL said mk-1A first flight in 2022. DRDO themselves have said Uttam will be ready for mk-1A. To me, its look like HAL wants the easy way out cuz they failed to integrate radar for M2K and Jags. If Jaguar upgrade didn't exist then IAF may also have supported Uttam.
naa...let's not make it dependent on DRDo deliverable this time, we can do that later.
Delays usually happen during development, development phase is over its now going testing phase.
what happens if we find issues in the testing phase? goes back to re-development/fixing phase. we have tried this before and delayed our LCA a lot.. we can always integrate with LCA later.
DRDO tried to push Uttam for Mk1A, but they themselves later backed out when they realised they can't meet HAL's time frame for Mk1A.
Uttam requires 2-3 years more of development testing, whereas the Israeli radar chosen for Mk1A is already developed. So Uttam will become available for Mk2. Of course, we can integrate Uttam for Mk1A exports to Muslim countries sans Israeli gear.
No relation with Jaguar though. HAL is capable of integrating any radar on LCA.
This is the PHAROS radar, intended as a fire-control element for guns (including SRGM, Mark 45 and CIWS cannons) and for SRSAMs like VL MICA.
Pharos - Multi Target Tracking Radar | Thales Group
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/d7/asset/document/pharos-v01.pdf
What will it replace ? What do we use today as a FCR for our ships ? I am guessing BEL LYNX UX GFCR(http://www.bel-india.in/Products.aspx?MId=13&LId=1&link=69)
How is the Pharos different/better than Lynx ?
This isn't a confirmed purchase, it's only an offer. Remains to be seen if we adopt it or not.
Various systems on various ship classes. Shivaliks & Delhi-class use the Elta EL/M-2221 STGR for fire control of the Barak-1 Close-in SAM, AK-100/SRGM and AK-630 CIWS. Talwar-class uses 5P-10E Puma for the guns.
I don't see any STGR on the Kolkata, so I'm led to believe that the MF-STAR, being a multifunction AESA radar capable of interleaved operations, manages the gun Fire control as well. @randomradio Does Kolk have a separate FCR for guns?
To surmise, I doubt the PHAROS has much potential as an offer for replacement of existing systems...rather, I think it has potential as being the go-to solution for main gun/CIWS fire control on future IN ships.
The Lynx & STGR I believe are slotted-array radars. The PHAROS on the other hand appears to be an AESA with solid state antenna arrays. That means it will be far more capable of tracking multiple targets, directing multiple systems at same time, and being much harder to spoof with ECM. Overall a much better and more capable system in short.
Yep, it does. You can see it right above the bridge.
It's this one.
Shipborne target designation radar 3TS-25E | Catalog Rosoboronexport
We use a modified one called APARNA.
Yep, it does. You can see it right above the bridge.
It's this one.
Shipborne target designation radar 3TS-25E | Catalog Rosoboronexport
We use a modified one called APARNA.
The Garpun? I thought that was for providing surface target cues to SSMs (not fire control, which is done by Orekh). The same Garpun/APARNA is also present on Shivalik, Delhi & Talwar-class despite the fact they have STGR on former two and Puma on the latter. Then is the STGR only for Barak-1 fire control?
Then what purpose does Puma serve on Talwar alongside Garpun?
(EDITED to switch Talwar & Delhi).
EDIT: Forgot Orekh is SAM FCR
The Garpun? I thought that was for providing surface target cues to SSMs (not fire control, which is done by Orekh). The same Garpun/APARNA is also present on Shivalik, Delhi & Talwar-class despite the fact they have STGR on former two and Puma on the latter. Then is the STGR only for Barak-1 fire control?
Then what purpose does Puma serve on Talwar alongside Garpun?
(EDITED to switch Talwar & Delhi).
EDIT: Forgot Orekh is SAM FCR
Talwar uses Garpun for SSMs, navigation etc and Puma for main gun. And on Kolkata and Shivalik class, Garpun provides fire control to the main gun, apart from its other functions. On Delhi class, the MR-145 provides FCR to the main gun.
STGR provides FCR to Barak 1 and AK-630 on Delhi and Shivalik class.
Thank you for your prompt response sir, it was very informative. While we are on the subject of naval radars, don't you think its time to get rid of the Thales LW-08 D-band air search radar on the kolkata class or at least get a newer radar for the vizag class ? If yes what would be an ideal fit ? do we have any homemade radar that can fill that role ?This isn't a confirmed purchase, it's only an offer. Remains to be seen if we adopt it or not.
Various systems on various ship classes. Shivaliks & Delhi-class use the Elta EL/M-2221 STGR for fire control of the Barak-1 Close-in SAM, AK-100/SRGM and AK-630 CIWS. Talwar-class uses 5P-10E Puma for the guns.
I don't see any STGR on the Kolkata, so I'm led to believe that the MF-STAR, being a multifunction AESA radar capable of interleaved operations, manages the gun Fire control as well. @randomradio Does Kolk have a separate FCR for guns?
To surmise, I doubt the PHAROS has much potential as an offer for replacement of existing systems...rather, I think it has potential as being the go-to solution for main gun/CIWS fire control on future IN ships.
The Lynx & STGR I believe are slotted-array radars. The PHAROS on the other hand appears to be an AESA with solid state antenna arrays. That means it will be far more capable of tracking multiple targets, directing multiple systems at same time, and being much harder to spoof with ECM. Overall a much better and more capable system in short.
You mean this ?
Going by the data sheet the performance of this thing is similar to that of the Thales SMART-L. Except the SMART-L is a L-band passive electronically scanned array(PESA) radar where as te RAWL-03 is an active phased array radar(APAR) operating in C/D- band. I would compare size, weight, power consumption if said figures were available to me. However, it is important to note that the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR(S-band) has a declared range of 250+kms where as the RAWL-03 being less bulkier seemingly has a 400 kms range. Now, I concede I have no clue about radar bands or which is effective where, but to my untrained mind it seems that RAWL-03 is for search and track initiation but it doesn't provide enough quality of information to target engagement, where as MF-STAR provides weapons grade radar picture even at the fringe of its effective range. Again I could be completely wrong, if you could explain radar bands and their uses it would be very beneficial.
Yep.
L band and C/D band are pretty much the same. It's just semantics among different organisations. L, S band etc are used globally, while C, D, E etc are used by NATO.
So the RAWL-03 is L band (C/D band) whereas MFSTAR is S band (E/F band).
The ranges are for public consumption. Also, the data quoted for MFSTAR is for a much, much, much smaller radar (almost 10x smaller) than what's on the Kolkata class.
The higher the frequency, the greater is the target resolution and accuracy. So the MFSTAR will be able to provide much superior targeting data versus RAWL. The RAWL is used for monitoring air traffic. So its been designed for volume scan.
Lower frequencies are better for detecting stealth targets. Whereas higher frequencies are better used for targeting. The reason for this is beamwidth. For radars of equal size, the higher the frequency, the smaller is the beamwidth. The smaller the beamwidth, the greater the accuracy.
Which means you can get very fine data the higher in frequency range you go. But the drawback is you need more power to transmit to the same distance as a lower frequency radar since the greater the frequency, the greater is attenuation in the atmosphere, meaning a higher frequency signal gets weaker much faster than a lower frequency signal.
The shape of the radar matters as well. The RAWL is much wider than the MFSTAR, so it's been specifically designed to detect airborne targets as early as possible, similar to AWACS. The MFSTAR's more symmetric design is more specific to acquiring the target that's been detected by the RAWL. So square and circular designs are more common for acquisition radars versus a rectangular design for volume scan radars.
Similarly , for the same frequency, a larger radar will give you a smaller beamwidth.
Ultimately, it's all about the size and shape of the beam. And you use radar size, shape and frequency to get the beam that you want.
VHF, UHF and L band are good for volume scan. Stealth is most detectable in these bands.
S, C and X band are good for fire control. Stealth is designed to defeat these bands, particularly C band to K band. Without fire control, you can't kill.
Missile seekers are very small, so much higher frequencies are desirable. X to Ku bands are used in missile seekers. Stealth as of today is not designed to deal with Ka and above, but technology has not reached the point where we can use Ka band and above in AAM seekers, let alone radars.
Thank you for the detailed write up. Much appreciated.
Woah, didn't know that. That means assuming the size expansion was largely in antenna array the kolkata's MF-STAR could ave nearly 10x the range then advertised. Kolkata is a beast. Any sources on the sizes ?
Interesting, so do we have any radars in Ka band being built/in R&D ?
No. 10x size doesn't mean 10x range. Far too many factors are involved in increasing range, and size is only one of them.
There is no official data out, only estimates. The known sizes are 1x2m and 4x4m. Kolkata's radar is bigger than that.
Entirely new type of radars will become available over the next 10-20 years. Photonics radars in the microwave range, up to 100GHz, even 300GHZ. Then there's Terrahertz radars which works in the visible spectrum.