Indian Hypersonic Propulsion Developments
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Rudram series is normal air launched missiles, and when did we test HGV? (According to video)
I guess they took the LRAShM test as that, even though it has partial glide vehicle feature. Old ogni 2 BGRV is kinda like similar profile theoretically though not high lift to drag design.
Are there any good difference between a solid fuel based R2 & some ALBM apart from weight difference, trajectory shaping etc?
Are there any good difference between a solid fuel based R2 & some ALBM apart from weight difference, trajectory shaping etc?
At some part of its envelope Rudram 3 may reach Mach 5+ speeds. So we may term it as quasi-hypersonic missile.
Also, as per Alpha Defence, we might have tested HGV during one of Agni-Prime tests(though I am not too certain about that).
The video was good, IMO.
But, DRDO do not claim that about Rudram right? Where is this expectations coming from. Just like we don't call ballistic missiles hypersonic.
Expectations or inspiration may come from our old ally aka the Ruskies how they call Kinzhal as hypersonic missile though it's just an air launched ballistic missile.
Zircon and Avangard are true hypersonic weapons which we're also pursuing(in concept).
Yes, Kinzhal is just Iskander air launched. Got egg faced when patriot intercepted with ease.
See Avangard types HGV are very much ICBM warheads, nothing else. That is un powered, so would depend on a different propulsion aka other rocket stages ability to set it on desired working condition, speed thrust wise, outside the atmosphere, where it would use maybe some RCS to maneuver and then post reentry would use high lift aerodynamic body & very high speed to generate the shockwave that would let it glide over a long distance. This case is different.
Kinzhal is thoroughly powered in its flight, and if it is really Iskander lite, there should not be a lot problems to implement iskander like trajectory shaping, maneuver, non ballistic trajectory etc into it. So this glide ability in one phase of its course can be very beneficial. Rudram 2 can do that, from that chart its obvious. R-3 got a more prominent hypersonic fin structure that can extend range if it goes glide mode in one part of its flight. LR-AShM also can be such if that control surfaces are correct. Basically the point is these missiles do not need sustained hypersonic propulsion throughout its flight duration. Scramjets need that, and will be able to fly at much lower altitude due to that.
Also , Ukr showed an intact pcb warhead as proof of that, which is used in subsonic missiles too. Barely any proof of full tracking, interceptor launch or debris in field shown, unlike Rus showing actual Scalp, several Himars projectile interceptions. So their proof is as good as their list of losses incurred. In a way, Ukr can not track Onyx, has hard time tracking kh-32 types which is what R-2 is about. Still, in real life ambient conditions many things can happen, you can shoot down by a pure fluke sometimes. But that is exception to the rule sort, not out of practice.
Kinzhal is thoroughly powered in its flight, and if it is really Iskander lite, there should not be a lot problems to implement iskander like trajectory shaping, maneuver, non ballistic trajectory etc into it. So this glide ability in one phase of its course can be very beneficial. Rudram 2 can do that, from that chart its obvious. R-3 got a more prominent hypersonic fin structure that can extend range if it goes glide mode in one part of its flight. LR-AShM also can be such if that control surfaces are correct. Basically the point is these missiles do not need sustained hypersonic propulsion throughout its flight duration. Scramjets need that, and will be able to fly at much lower altitude due to that.
Also , Ukr showed an intact pcb warhead as proof of that, which is used in subsonic missiles too. Barely any proof of full tracking, interceptor launch or debris in field shown, unlike Rus showing actual Scalp, several Himars projectile interceptions. So their proof is as good as their list of losses incurred. In a way, Ukr can not track Onyx, has hard time tracking kh-32 types which is what R-2 is about. Still, in real life ambient conditions many things can happen, you can shoot down by a pure fluke sometimes. But that is exception to the rule sort, not out of practice.
You are not making much sense. You say Kinzhal is supersonic most of the flight. Supersonic missile interception has been taking place since the 80's. But you dont think latest patriot do it now?. Love for russian stuff is fascinating.
Every supersonic missile can be intercepted today. Rudram is nothing but another old school missile. Fanboys make it hypersonic.
That is neither Kinzhal nor supersonic. Its an unexploded pcb warhead, that buries itself deep then the post impact delay fuse works. It fails many times hence unexploded bombs/warhead are retrieved. Warhead like these work in max under 2 mach condition, in fact anymore over 500-550 m/sec terminal velocity before hitting there is good chance it would not explode at all because the safety arming mechanism would fail.You are not making much sense. You say Kinzhal is supersonic most of the flight. Supersonic missile interception has been taking place since the 80's. But you dont think latest patriot do it now?. Love for russian stuff is fascinating.
Every supersonic missile can be intercepted today. Rudram is nothing but another old school missile. Fanboys make it hypersonic.
Kinzhal is hypersonic, in the 70-80s USSR had those kh-22 type anti ship ones that would fly nearly mach 5 in stratosphere. To me it looks well it can fly at over 10mach in certain altitude region, that is lower than normal ballistic RV altitude (outside atmosphere). The point is, why can not a missile system be hypersonic in mid course, but supersonic in terminal phase would then get called supersonic only?
ps: I could have posted Pralay 700kg pcb warhead drawing to prove that part, but for the sensitive case. Ours also follow the same GOST standard casting, filling , fuzing & SAM. That's the thing with wartime haze propaganda part, if Ukr claimed the obvious part nobody would bat an eyelid. But once they claimed that, most media repeated it without proper proof.
The same pcb warhead design can be used in Kinzhal too should they wish so, but given it itself is highly kinetic in terminal phase , vertical drop strike at high AoA, it won't need a deep penetrating pcb warhead.
The same pcb warhead design can be used in Kinzhal too should they wish so, but given it itself is highly kinetic in terminal phase , vertical drop strike at high AoA, it won't need a deep penetrating pcb warhead.
Because there is nothing new about the missile. You need a technological breakthrough in propulsion to classify something as hypersonic. Overuse of the word diminishes the importance of modern missiles.
For example, Pakistanis calling the CM-400AKG use the same logic. However, it is an outdated technology that both the USSR and US have decommissioned. It ascends in altitude and then descends rapidly in the terminal stage, like a ball. The Americans had the AGM-65 and the communists had the Kh-15/22. The trajectory of the missile made it easier to track and intercept. What truly makes the BrahMos supersonic is its ramjet engine and its ability to fly low (sea skimming) at that speed. It simply cannot be compared to the CM-400. They are not equal.
Yes I agree, however the notion that a system needs to be thoroughly powered via a hypersonic propulsion system or be terminal hypersonic as some set criteria for the use case is not entirely true. A system can be both hypersonic in some phase of its flight and also not be terminal hypersonic or can have a glide phase en route to target. Such a system would likely have a better range compared to all through powered flight range too.
The parabolic/elliptical trajectory that was employed in previous gen missiles and still in some active service , was always trackable via long range radars if the apogee was very high. However, the X-22 class flew in stratosphere , way inside atmosphere level so the reaction time to engage it was less , hence deadly. The crux of hypersonic scramjet propulsion now seems to be making the air vehicle fly at hypersonic speed within the low atmosphere level, within 25-40km altitude. The same objective can be achieved by a solid fuel motor too, except it won't be able to cruise flight at very low sea skimming mode.
Glide vehicles are another thing, for conventional use the target reach is lower side, 1000 km in most cases. Something that can glide after reentry phase, would go for another 1500km+ range easily with a high lift aerodynamic design. That long range is/was not generally needed in conventional warfare so far. So a glider body within atmosphere say at 40km altitude, like Rudram 3, would give extra 200-250km range over Rudram 2. That is a satisfactory use case where part of its flight would be hypersonic, but with a terminal supersonic impact.
Well neutronx said this could be hstdv with K4 booster stage so keeping it here as reference , right side one also look like similar
Link of old workshop/seminar :
Link of old workshop/seminar :
CSIR-NAL making some ram/scram jet related components that are import restricted by foreign countries.
Together with the ramjet/scramjet fuel making effort within the country, I think we are on a good stead? Special coatings are also being worked on by DMRL, long duration high heat withstanding which is already posted in this thread.
cc @Ashwin @Gautam @Rajput Lion
Together with the ramjet/scramjet fuel making effort within the country, I think we are on a good stead? Special coatings are also being worked on by DMRL, long duration high heat withstanding which is already posted in this thread.
cc @Ashwin @Gautam @Rajput Lion
We're making good progress on this front. Just need to test HSTDV soon to validate all such efforts.
