Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[marich01]

To go along with the mainstay of konkurs M stock, nearly 10 times of this if not more.
Plus the spike local prod, western atgms also likely as local prod. Even the BDL Amogha might get some nos.

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1982455005501419984

DRDO need to work on low Observable Subsonic cruise missile..... It's advantage outweighs supersonic & Hypersonic Cruise missiles by a long shot.

 

[Ashwin]

R-60 Missile seeker.

 

[marich01]

NASM-SR test likely soon-ish. or something else maybe, but since the helo on deck is being readied with live store then you know whats coming ....

View attachment 47188

Above test structure & IR target panel system are usually supplied by Trinitech. They do the ship lockup target also, the one where a temp structure is built on a barge ship or floating platform with IR or target panels mounted on top.

 

[lmaoxd]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1982455005501419984

DRDO need to work on low Observable Subsonic cruise missile..... It's advantage outweighs supersonic & Hypersonic Cruise missiles by a long shot.

am i missing something or isnt LRLACM exactly what you want?

 

[babablacksheep]

am i missing something or isnt LRLACM exactly what you want?

lrlacm isn't exactly stealthy, shape wise.

The Russian study talking about median rcs of agm-86B is Talking about its rcs based on its shape.


We can also add low observable coatings on the missiles to further reduce rcs.


But even with low observable coating LRLACM won't be as stealthy as agm-86B as agm-86B has low observable coating and stealthy shape.

 

[marich01]

So the stealthy shape to work does it need all the detection radars queue up in a single line ?
In a dynamic real time situation the equation is vastly different. In fact USA/NATO countries will never use missiles in a massed way like Rus is using because first they do not produce that many and second the cost is way bigger not every country can afford and third their choice of weapon is always bombs, not missiles for extended period use. Without considering sead op their mil will not venture into next phase of operation.
Bottom line is VLO subsonic missile has its own use but in a very limited case specific way (like the early blitz in Iraq) and under specific conditions to achieve very specific military goals (if enemy capability is sufficiently degraded it does not matter whether you fly stealthy or not).

Think of a situation like
a ninja tiptoeing between shadows to get to its target without being detected
vs
you are tiptoeing to avoid large water filled potholes on road during the rains

 

[FalconSlayers]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1982455005501419984

DRDO need to work on low Observable Subsonic cruise missile..... It's advantage outweighs supersonic & Hypersonic Cruise missiles by a long shot.

HAL is prototyping one which looks similar to the JASSM. Earlier design was more similar to Taurus.

 

[babablacksheep]

So the stealthy shape to work does it need all the detection radars queue up in a single line ?
In a dynamic real time situation the equation is vastly different. In fact USA/NATO countries will never use missiles in a massed way like Rus is using because first they do not produce that many and second the cost is way bigger not every country can afford and third their choice of weapon is always bombs, not missiles for extended period use. Without considering sead op their mil will not venture into next phase of operation.
Bottom line is VLO subsonic missile has its own use but in a very limited case specific way (like the early blitz in Iraq) and under specific conditions to achieve very specific military goals (if enemy capability is sufficiently degraded it does not matter whether you fly stealthy or not).

Think of a situation like
a ninja tiptoeing between shadows to get to its target without being detected
vs
you are tiptoeing to avoid large water filled potholes on road during the rains

So the stealthy shape to work does it need all the detection radars queue up in a single line ?

While frontal arc reduction is most prioritized but reduction of rcs on other arc's are also done.

Also the highest chances of radar detecting you still comes frontal or near frontal zone.

In fact USA/NATO countries will never use missiles in a massed way like Rus is using

USA will use cruise missiles in mass use.

They have AGM-158C LRASM, a stealthy cruise missile for anti ship role intended to be the primary anti ship weapon of thier fighter jets.

Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM)

LRASM is a low-risk, multi-service, multi-platform, multi-mission Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare cruise missile.

www.lockheedmartin.com

And I didn't meant that we need to *completely* replace LRLACM with a stealthy cruise missile.

It's advantage outweighs supersonic & Hypersonic Cruise missiles by a long shot

Disagree.

 

[RationalGuy]

While frontal arc reduction is most prioritized but reduction of rcs on other arc's are also done.

Also the highest chances of radar detecting you still comes frontal or near frontal zone.





USA will use cruise missiles in mass use.

They have AGM-158C LRASM, a stealthy cruise missile for anti ship role intended to be the primary anti ship weapon of thier fighter jets.

Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM)

LRASM is a low-risk, multi-service, multi-platform, multi-mission Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare cruise missile.

www.lockheedmartin.com

And I didn't meant that we need to *completely* replace LRLACM with a stealthy cruise missile.

Disagree.

Anduril has made a mass producable cruise missile too, the Barracuda iirc.

 

[babablacksheep]

Anduril has made a mass producable cruise missile too, the Barracuda iirc.

Its more of a standoff munition.

Rather Than a more sophisticated cruise missile.


Similar to this.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a turbojet-powered variant of its Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) to convert the precision-guided glide bomb into a long-range cruise missile

 

[RationalGuy]

Its more of a standoff munition.

Rather Than a more sophisticated cruise missile.


Similar to this.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a turbojet-powered variant of its Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) to convert the precision-guided glide bomb into a long-range cruise missile

For dealing with an enemy with sophisticated IADS stand off is the way to go, no longer only stealth. But what was impressive was Andurils feat of making it in 6 months.

 

[babablacksheep]

. But what was impressive was Andurils feat of making it in 6 months.

It is indeed impressive, but availability of off the shelf subsystems that andurnil can buy and assemble the weapon,also helped.

Its not just anduril, russia has similarly developed a cheap cruise missile from off the shelf chinese commercial parts, including chinese commercial mini turbo jet.
Same with ukraine making a cheap long range cruise missile using old turbofan soviet origin engines that are near the end of their life, previously used in trainer jets.

So many other entities are also exploring similar cheap cruise missile concepts and many even have in use examples.


So andruil is not a pioneer of this concept.

 

[marich01]

While frontal arc reduction is most prioritized but reduction of rcs on other arc's are also done.

Also the highest chances of radar detecting you still comes frontal or near frontal zone.

Higher right angle joint will give high reflectivity thereby detection. As much as many hate the traditional circular missile airframe we use, these are also built with degree of stealth characteristics within due to small frontal arc signature and low reaction time given to adversary.

Correct parameter should be how effective the missile is based on all parameters combined ie stealth, time of flight, detection signature etc
vis a vis to how stealthy one is because that has to fly low and slow for a long long time.

USA will use cruise missiles in mass use.

Yes, but for few selective specific cases and overall for a short duration of time if you consider a war effort full timeline. Majority of volume of ammo, precision target weapons would still be bombs, rek bombs etc. The destruction power with volume centric approach is unmatched cost benefit wise.

They have AGM-158C LRASM, a stealthy cruise missile for anti ship role intended to be the primary anti ship weapon of thier fighter jets.

Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM)

LRASM is a low-risk, multi-service, multi-platform, multi-mission Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare cruise missile.

www.lockheedmartin.com

And I didn't meant that we need to *completely* replace LRLACM with a stealthy cruise missile.

Disagree.

Tomahawk is nothing but sending a 450kg bomb to its destination target via autonomous flying without risking a jet.
The same principle goes for other variants or new named weapons that is just packaging with additional new tech infusion.

 

[babablacksheep]

Higher right angle joint will give high reflectivity thereby detection. As much as many hate the traditional circular missile airframe we use, these are also built with degree of stealth characteristics within due to small frontal arc signature and low reaction time given to adversary.

Correct parameter should be how effective the missile is based on all parameters combined ie stealth, time of flight, detection signature etc
vis a vis to how stealthy one is because that has to fly low and slow for a long long time.


Yes, but for few selective specific cases and overall for a short duration of time if you consider a war effort full timeline. Majority of volume of ammo, precision target weapons would still be bombs, rek bombs etc. The destruction power with volume centric approach is unmatched cost benefit wise.


Tomahawk is nothing but sending a 450kg bomb to its destination target via autonomous flying without risking a jet.
The same principle goes for other variants or new named weapons that is just packaging with additional new tech infusion.

I already agree with you in lrlacm not needing replacement with a stealthier cruise missile for its role currently.

am i missing something or isnt LRLACM exactly what you want?

My reply to him, was me saying that lrlacm is not an equivalent to a stealthy cruise missile.

As you yourself said different usage parameters.

So you are fighting a different argument, one i never made.


And we we do need a stealthy cruise missile for lots of niche cases That's why we bought European storm shadow and are working on developing our own future stealthy cruise missile/smart missile.

 

[CATS @hunter]

It is indeed impressive, but availability of off the shelf subsystems that andurnil can buy and assemble the weapon,also helped.

Its not just anduril, russia has similarly developed a cheap cruise missile from off the shelf chinese commercial parts, including chinese commercial mini turbo jet.
Same with ukraine making a cheap long range cruise missile using old turbofan soviet origin engines that are near the end of their life, previously used in trainer jets.

So many other entities are also exploring similar cheap cruise missile concepts and many even have in use examples.


So andruil is not a pioneer of this concept.

You can do this with SAAW EO, there's already 100kgf & even more thrust engine from NAL & private players at the moment, new space already have the AI tech for such autonomous tracking & targeting missions,

 

[babablacksheep]

You can do this with SAAW EO, there's already 100kgf & even more thrust engine from NAL & private players at the moment, new space already have the AI tech for such autonomous tracking & targeting missions,

Similar to this.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a turbojet-powered variant of its Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) to convert the precision-guided glide bomb into a long-range cruise missile

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1987860695522939238

 

[marich01]

^ Could have posted neutrons tweets instead of that over both threads, anyway here that is

https://twitter.com/x/status/1987856749471342734

https://twitter.com/x/status/1987862940033388794

 

[marich01]

So basically we can build any sort of missile now due to availability of motor stages 1.4m 2m or 2.4m class, , be it

non uniform body minuteman like system resembling a sat launcher veda (but slightly less chubby, MM3 with below 2m dia)
uniform dia body mirv Divyastra
uniform dia body next gen A6 or further iteration with mirv or single heavy payload
sat launcher veda
fat booster stage basis nuke deliverable hgv/desi avangard

Variety of mirv payloads are also now prepared, ie miniaturisation of the payload structure (Not miniaturised high yield nuke) to suit being placed in the mirv bus as multi pack but still keeps similar form factor of a heavy bigger conical payload. This is natural since if you follow a specific system for nuke delivery, you can no suddenly switch to a dumb Rv based flight path that can be easily calculated by enemy and bmd can counter it. So your delivery mechanism even if now smaller should also be able to mirror the robust delivery mechanism system in place that is well proven.

Whether that is to be implemented on the SLBM remains to be seen, since SLBM is for a 2nd strike role when your other options are exhausted. So it needs to be a 100% robust system with high success chance as quickly possible mission time wise. The next step would be when the HGVs mature , miniaturised hgv payloads on a mirv bus, extremely tricky since right now entire HGV gamut is the glide vehicle is put on top of a booster then released high above. We will need very sophisticated bus design, then stage separation mechanism, bus separation & hgv deployment in an era where there would be space based bmd systems.