Indian Navy hunt for Mine Counter-Measures (MCM) Vessel: Discussion

[aditya g]

Creating a separate thread for the jinxed MCM acquisition program.

Interesting part from a recent Bharat Shakti article:

Goa Shipyard – India’s Key Security Partner – Scaling New Heights in Warship Building

Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) was established by the Portuguese, on 26th November 1957 as ‘Estalerios Navais de Goa’. It started functioning under its own Board of Directors since September 26, 1967. O

bharatshakti.in

Infrastructure Modernisation

GSL has undertaken a massive modernization drive in the last few years to increase its capacity multifold and set up infrastructure for indigenous construction of technologically advanced Vessels for the Nation’s security requirements. With consistent yearly CAPEX close to Rs 100 Crore (approx), the Shipyard has created an enviable modern infrastructure boasting of 6000 T Ship lift, dry berths, outfitting jetties, outfitting workshops and storage facilities, besides unique specialized facility for construction of advanced Mine Counter Measure Vessels (MCMVs) constructed with niche FRP technology. It is the only Shipyard in South Asia to have this unique capability of construction hulls for MCMVs in FRP. Along with modernization work, the Yard has the capacity of constructing 14 ships at various stages of fabrication and outfitting at any time

 

[Ashwin]

The Navy had initially planned to get 24 Mine Sweepers, which was decreased to 12 and now 8 in numbers.

General News, Questions And Discussions - Indian Navy

www.strategicfront.org

I don't know how they can drastically change numbers. Did the threat of prescription change? or is this a temporary reduction?

 

[aditya g]

General News, Questions And Discussions - Indian Navy

www.strategicfront.org

I don't know how they can drastically change numbers. Did the threat of prescription change? or is this a temporary reduction?

In one of the articles the anonymous quote was that this reduction is to confirm to budgetary realities and Navy reserves the right to order more later.

I do not understand what is holding up MCM procurement though, if GSL already has the FRP hull capability then what stops them from proposing their own design? Why do we need a foreign collaboration.

 

[randomradio]

I had touched upon this subject earlier.

The initial MCMV tender went the MMRCA way, it broke down during negotiations and had to be cancelled. Plus there were agents involved. It was then retendered with only the Koreans responding, which gave them a huge negotiations advantage.

 

[aditya g]

IN has floated a RFI for leasing MCMVs - with sovereign guarantee. Why would any government come forward to provide this for an older ship? I will be happy to be proven wrong.

Do we know of any candidate ships that IN could acquire?

 

[_Anonymous_]

IN has floated a RFI for leasing MCMVs - with sovereign guarantee. Why would any government come forward to provide this for an older ship? I will be happy to be proven wrong.

Do we know of any candidate ships that IN could acquire?

Russia.

 

[aditya g]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1450428071203336193

https://twitter.com/x/status/1450432504649818117

...............

 

[aditya g]

Poland is building a stainless steel MCM vessel:

830 tons
55 m

Kormoran II class MCM Vessel ORP Kormoran joins Polish Navy

According to information published by Defense 24 on February 16, 2022, the Kormoran II class Mine countermeasures vessel Kormoran joined the Polish Na

navyrecognition.com

I am totally perplexed as to why we are not able to at least build an interim/temporary MCM vessel with a FRP hull, ROVs and diver support. Gold standard can come separately

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Interim Minesweeping Capability of India
(Deal inked in 2019)

{
The Indian Navy has inked a INR 306 Crore ($42 Million) deal with Thales Australia for eight mine counter-measure clip-on influence sweeps.

“In order to meet the requirement, a contract for procurement of eight Clip Influence Sweep (CLOIS) for minesweeping has already been concluded”, Subhash Bhamre, India’s minister of state for defence was quoted by Sputnik as informing the parliament on Wednesday.

The navy will equip its fast interceptor crafts scheduled to be delivered in 2021-2022 with these suites having infrasonic advanced acoustic generators, TOI reported Thursday.
}

https://twitter.com/x/status/1093688320494878722

 

[Ankit Kumar]

They list Indian Navy as customer. But not much details.
If anyone knows which 8 ships will receive them or what's the current status of order, do share the info here.

 

[aditya g]

Interim Minesweeping Capability of India
(Deal inked in 2019)

{
The Indian Navy has inked a INR 306 Crore ($42 Million) deal with Thales Australia for eight mine counter-measure clip-on influence sweeps.

“In order to meet the requirement, a contract for procurement of eight Clip Influence Sweep (CLOIS) for minesweeping has already been concluded”, Subhash Bhamre, India’s minister of state for defence was quoted by Sputnik as informing the parliament on Wednesday.

The navy will equip its fast interceptor crafts scheduled to be delivered in 2021-2022 with these suites having infrasonic advanced acoustic generators, TOI reported Thursday.
}

https://twitter.com/x/status/1093688320494878722

It totally baffles me on why IN is unable to agree an interim MCM ship based on GRP hulls - even if its bronze standard, a MCM ship in hand is worth 2 on the RFI.... GSL and MDL have both invested in GRP ship manufacturing....

 

[Ankit Kumar]

This is the operative part: “As far as the minesweeping vessels are concerned, we have worked on the QR sometimes back. Now there is a rethink. Instead of going for a pure mine sweeping vessel, we are looking at the new concept of using drones — underwater autonomous systems which is being followed worldwide. So, we are looking at new concept of Motherships with autonomous systems around the ships.” This clarifies as how IN is proceeding towards the new approach for the Minesweepers. The Indian Navy will be calling out for such Minesweepers with autonomous vehicles very shortly. It is pertinent to note that there will be new RFI based on the new design and tech infusion based on high-capacity sensors and detectors.

Here are the errors in such a narrative: 1) Before minesweeping operations commence, the minehunting operations need to take place. 2) For this, either vessel hulls made of glass-reinforced plastic (GRP) or demagnetised steel need to be employed. This is the global norm. 3) Only after this are underwater ROVs employed to remotely attach explosives to the floating/moored naval mines that are then remotely exploded. Optionally, airborne minesweeping gear mounted on helicopters can destroy the floating mines.

PKS

 

[_Anonymous_]

What if these AUVs are multi functional i.e do minehunting & sweeping too ?

Besides the mother ship would definitely have to have de magnetized hull or glass reinforced plastic hull. I mean why's PKS hammering the point home unless he suspects the IN to be daft enough to experiment or neglect both these aspects ?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

What if these AUVs are multi functional i.e do minehunting & sweeping too ?

Besides the mother ship would definitely have to have de magnetized hull or glass reinforced plastic hull. I mean why's PKS hammering the point home unless he suspects the IN to be daft enough to experiment or neglect both these aspects ?

Katanpää-class mine countermeasure vessel - Wikipedia

Just check the sensor list.

Fitting that amount of sensor and giving the Autonomous Vessel that amount of endurance will make the AUV heavy. Heavy in the range of 300-500 tons.

And I don't think India is having the capability to even have 1 ton AUVs operating for long durations.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Modern mine countermeasures vessels are capable to act as motherships too holding off multiple types of autonomous vessels.

This is what we should ideally be pursuing.

Italian Shipyard Intermarine Delivers 2nd El Kasseh-class MCM Vessel to Algeria - Naval News

Italian shipyard Intermarine (a subsidiary of the Immsi S.p.A. industrial group) has delivered the second El Kasseh-class mine counter measure (MCM) vessel to the Algerian Navy on 29 July. A third unit is currently under construction.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Slightly older system of Minehunter + Minesweeper (South Korean)

Basically a ripoff of Italians, but less capable, so they had to use two ships for the purpose of 1 modern mine countermeasures vessel.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The most modern system "operational" across the world.

The Germans. It contains a Mine Warfare Ship as a mothership, which can itself do conventional mine sweeping and full fledged mine hunting. Each vessel has 3-4 smaller Autonomous vessels which are more modern mine sweeping capable.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Katanpää-class mine countermeasure vessel - Wikipedia

Just check the sensor list.

Fitting that amount of sensor and giving the Autonomous Vessel that amount of endurance will make the AUV heavy. Heavy in the range of 300-500 tons.

And I don't think India is having the capability to even have 1 ton AUVs operating for long durations.

300-500 tons ? While the list enclosed in Wikipedia article of the items carried doesn't mention weight , the other dimensions hardly suggest it's as heavy as you're making it out to be. Besides the displacement of the mother ship itself is 600 tons.

The larger AUV, HUGIN (High Precision Untethered Geosurvey and Inspection system), which is manufactured by Kongsberg Maritime, is over four meters long and weighs over 800 kg (1,800 lb).

The above snippet is from the Wikipedia article you've linked.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The most modern system "operational" across the world.

The Germans. It contains a Mine Warfare Ship as a mothership, which can itself do conventional mine sweeping and full fledged mine hunting. Each vessel has 3-4 smaller Autonomous vessels which are more modern mine sweeping capable.

View attachment 26828View attachment 26829

Frankly those German Minesweepers are Type 343 class of Hameln class of Minesweepers which were upgraded to Type 352 Ensdorf class in early 2000 , after the former were decommissioned fron service & upgraded + modernized to be rechristened into the Type 352 Ensdorf class .

Those Autonomous surface ships each have a displacement of ~100 tons & can be manned by a 3 man crew as well but obviously cannot be carried on board the mother ship & in all probability is towed or manned depending on the rendezvous .

Frankly Germany isn't the right example to be cited as irrespective of their technological prowess , their armed forces are in a very poor shape across the board.

Sometime back our good Administrator here linked a new class of Minesweepers being constructed by the Italians for their navy (?) . You ought to check that out . It's probably in the MCMV thread It's state of the art & what we should be looking at to induct into our fleet.

Ensdorf-class minesweeper - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ankit Kumar]

300-500 tons ? While the list enclosed in Wikipedia article of the items carried doesn't mention weight , the other dimensions hardly suggest it's as heavy as you're making it out to be. Besides the displacement of the mother ship itself is 600 tons.



The above snippet is from the Wikipedia article you've linked.

The AUV isn't that heavy because the majority of equipment is already on the main vessel.

And because that main vessel is not having a metallic hull, it can itself go into the dangerous zones where possible mines are there and then launch AUVs. Thus those AUVs won't need lots of range.

If you don't have a mothership without a metallic hull or a non magnetic hull, the ship will not be able to get very close. And the AUVs it will need to deploy will become heavier, because those UAVs will need to not only carry the sweeping equipment, but also sensors and a power source to power those systems and travel farther away.

The Finnish ships are small as their mandate is Baltics.

The same role in Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal will need the ship to be bigger.

Frankly those German Minesweepers are Type 343 class of Hameln class of Minesweepers which were upgraded to Type 352 Ensdorf class in early 2000 , after the former were decommissioned fron service & upgraded + modernized to be rechristened into the Type 352 Ensdorf class .

Those Autonomous surface ships each have a displacement of ~100 tons & can be manned by a 3 man crew as well but obviously cannot be carried on board the mother ship & in all probability is towed or manned depending on the rendezvous .

Frankly Germany isn't the right example to be cited as irrespective of their technological prowess , their armed forces are in a very poor shape across the board.

Sometime back our good Administrator here linked a new class of Minesweepers being constructed by the Italians for their navy (?) . You ought to check that out . It's probably in the MCMV thread It's state of the art & what we should be looking at to induct into our fleet.

Ensdorf-class minesweeper - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Italians certainly are world leaders. We should ideally have JV with them to atleast fullfill our domestic needs

If that doesn't pan out, buy the designs from Russians and equipment from Thales...