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I think the M88 tech is a dead end for India, as I posted above, the new French agreement has the most promise
Indo-France Aero Engine Co-Development Program
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
these articles circa Jan'22
France completes first engine test for its 6th generation fighter - AeroTime
The French General Directorate of Armaments (DGA) completed a first test for the development of the engine that will power the Future Combat Air System aircraft. The DGA announced on January 10, 2021, that a prototype derived from the M88, the engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter, was trialed...
www.aerotime.aero
France creates next-gen FCAS engine with an innovative turbine
French aviation industry is working to create a new jet engine for next-gen fighter jets learned BulgarianMilitary.com, citing the French Ministry of Defense.
bulgarianmilitary.com
.. confirm that a 2100K TET NGFE is on the way and initial testing was indeed carried out on an M88 derivative (announced that at the end of 2021) though finally these components will end up in an adaptive cycle new core next generation engine.
But with a timeline of 5 prototypes by 2027 (only 2 years away), first flight by 2028 and serial production by 2035 - which fits the AMCA's timeline - will the NGFE be ready so quickly?? or is India settling for one of the earlier M88 derived prototypes (the ones that will power NGF prototypes as outlined above) ??
this from perplexity AI..
France's NGF Jet Engine: M88-Based or Completely New Core?
The Next Generation Fighter (NGF) being developed by France (with Germany and Spain) as part of the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) is set to feature an engine that is a major technological step forward from previous designs.Engine Development Approach
- The NGF engine—officially known as the New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE)—is being jointly developed by Safran (France), MTU Aero Engines (Germany), and ITP Aero (Spain) under the EUMET (European Military Engine Team) consortium
- This engine is not a simple derivative of the current Snecma M88 (Rafale engine). Instead, it is planned to be an entirely new core, incorporating cutting-edge advancements in materials, digital engineering, and manufacturing
Relationship to the M88 Engine
- While early testbed engines and prototype demonstrations for NGF have used M88-derived technology and cores to speed up initial research and risk reduction, the production engine will go far beyond an M88 upgrade.
- The goal is a completely new engine architecture with adaptive-cycle features and a significant boost in thrust—30–40% more than the M88—to meet the demands of a sixth-generation fighter
- The research program (such as France’s Turenne project) leveraged M88 technology as a foundation for test prototypes, but the operational NGF/FCAS engine is to be fundamentally new—not a mere modification or upscaling of the M88
Key Advancements in the NGF Engine
- Higher thrust levels to support larger, heavier, and more sophisticated fighter platforms.
- Advanced digital controls and extensive use of new alloys and additive manufacturing.
- Adaptive-cycle capability for improved fuel efficiency and supersonic performance
- Designed for integration in manned and unmanned systems as part of FCAS
- Focus on sustainability, reliability, and reduced maintenance compared to legacy engines.
Summary Table: NGF Engine vs M88
| Feature | M88 Engine (Rafale) | NGF/FCAS Engine (Planned) |
|---|---|---|
| Core origin | Developed for Rafale | Entirely new core (not M88-based) |
| Thrust (afterburning) | Up to 75–105 kN | 30–40% higher (approx. 100–140 kN) |
| Technology | 1980s–90s innovations | Adaptive-cycle, digital, new alloys |
| Consortium | Safran | Safran, MTU, ITP Aero (EUMET) |
Conclusion
France's NGF jet engine will be a completely new core, developed by a multinational consortium, with only initial testbeds taking advantage of M88 heritage for early risk reduction. The final production engine will mark a significant generational leap, purpose-built for the demands of sixth-generation air combat operations
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Let's not compare the two deals here again
And at that time they didn't expect F404 to bite them.
We've made a lot of terrible decisions in the past. I don't see any point in revisiting them now.
I don’t want to use the word ‘desi’ here, but the ACE or so-called 6th-generation tech we’re expecting, isn’t really in our ballpark
The WS-15 has, what, a TET of 1800–1900K? I’d say it’s a great offer and a good way to funds for the necessary infra
The fact doesn't change, M88 is the best and quickest way out for us, I don't want to see another geopolitical spat, and engine program hanging in the middle.
We gotta first wait for the official update as to what the transfer of technology will entail. If it results in substantial infrastructure building to facilitate testing and developing encompassing superalloys, Blades, machines to make components, etc.. so that other than raw material ( if necessary) we don't have to depend on foreign supply chain for any part of the engine. Such that the cooperation isn't limited to DRDO but includes startups, academia, private industry, and even PSUs. It's not about developing an engine only but developing an ecosystem which facilitates the R&D of future propulsion systems. Invest more than 7B if necessary.
Also, important to know the extent to which safran will play the role and money they get paid.
Without above, there will be little difference in importing or licensing production and a JD. Lack of vision for future and just hurrying to let AMCA "fly" was why probably we made deal for GE404 and proposed GE414.
It doesn't matter if said development ends up higher version of M88 T-Rex or XYZ-Rhino.. the ecosystem is a must to carry the initiative forward.
Will also help DRDO in being a research centre than a system integrator.
Also, important to know the extent to which safran will play the role and money they get paid.
Without above, there will be little difference in importing or licensing production and a JD. Lack of vision for future and just hurrying to let AMCA "fly" was why probably we made deal for GE404 and proposed GE414.
It doesn't matter if said development ends up higher version of M88 T-Rex or XYZ-Rhino.. the ecosystem is a must to carry the initiative forward.
Will also help DRDO in being a research centre than a system integrator.
What we need to do is give rolls Royce to teaml up with TASL,Kalyani and L&T to develop an engine
While the safran hal makes one engine. Whoever comes first gets the bid for AMCA
Not feasible for two reasons:
1. Which of those private entities will fund the endeavour? - it is always governments with deep pockets that do the funding
2. What if RR expedites its engine but it has really poor MTBO and engine life? Cutting corners just to get past the line?
Safran is the better alternative because it is a snug fit for AMCA-II development timeline Safran has already proven atleast some of the tech that will go into NGFE. Besides, they are the only foreign OEM who have had a good look at Kaveri and we have experience working with them in helicopter engines. RR offer may have been better but if the timelines don't align..
France will now help with both IMRH and AMCA-II engines - too many eggs in one basket for sure, but such a decision must be based on past experience and trust.
Why so optimistic?
1925K
This is the most likely data
But for India, is the first step the WS-15?
It's good to have goals, While China has better tech now, India, with the help from the west, may become competitive,
They are getting GE F404 and F414 with local production and tech transfer, I don't know to what extent, but someone here would,
If the French partnership works out with next tech, it may be the step up that India needs
Don't know where to post this but this is a detailed summary of the various 5th & 6th Gen FA TF developments across the world.
Our so called JV for the 5th Gen TF would be right at the bottom / entry level tech of the various developments listed.
Surprisingly there's nothing about the Chinese endeavours in this field. How much of this is due to lack of information in this realm & how much of this is due to the disdain the IAF has for Chinese developments in this field is difficult to say but we've information about Russian endeavours which should be a good way to benchmark Chinese attempts .
The good news is we've gotten ourselves a toehold in the select club assuming news of the forthcoming JV with SAFRAN is true. The bad news of course is we've a long way to go.
idstch.com
Our so called JV for the 5th Gen TF would be right at the bottom / entry level tech of the various developments listed.
Surprisingly there's nothing about the Chinese endeavours in this field. How much of this is due to lack of information in this realm & how much of this is due to the disdain the IAF has for Chinese developments in this field is difficult to say but we've information about Russian endeavours which should be a good way to benchmark Chinese attempts .
The good news is we've gotten ourselves a toehold in the select club assuming news of the forthcoming JV with SAFRAN is true. The bad news of course is we've a long way to go.
Military Aerospace (Aircraft ) materials trends and market growth - International Defense Security & Technology
According to the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the demand for air travel rose by 7.4% in 2018 from 2017 levels. Air passengers accounted for
idstch.com
The Chinese designs are based on the cfm-56 which means they are somewhere between the f-110 and f-135 in terms of technical capability. They still have cheaper material and alloys.Don't know where to post this but this is a detailed summary of the various 5th & 6th Gen FA TF developments across the world.
Our so called JV for the 5th Gen TF would be right at the bottom / entry level tech of the various developments listed.
Surprisingly there's nothing about the Chinese endeavours in this field. How much of this is due to lack of information in this realm & how much of this is due to the disdain the IAF has for Chinese developments in this field is difficult to say but we've information about Russian endeavours which should be a good way to benchmark Chinese attempts .
The good news is we've gotten ourselves a toehold in the select club assuming news of the forthcoming JV with SAFRAN is true. The bad news of course is we've a long way to go.
Military Aerospace (Aircraft ) materials trends and market growth - International Defense Security & Technology
According to the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the demand for air travel rose by 7.4% in 2018 from 2017 levels. Air passengers accounted for
To be honest, if the Kaveri really hopeless, it should abandoned decisively. If it is still usable, India should at least install Kaveri on Tejas and conduct a test flight. After all, Indians have put in so much effort for such a long time, and at least they should complete the research and development process.
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Long term this is a better option , though it requires investment & consistent policy from Indian govt wrt procurement. Once the private sector gets a foothold it is in their interest to compete to get more contracts. Govt has to ensure that they atleast get some contracts to keep them afloat. In a free market single vendor joint ventures by govt is just free money with no accountability.
The Kaveri as originally envisioned may be hopeless, but the Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE) will find application on the IUSAV (a X-47B sized flying wing UCAV).
KDE is basically the original Kaveri, but with the afterburner section removed & the addition of a new inlet distortion-tolerant fan (needed to work properly with serpentine-duct inlets like what would go on IUSAV) among other improvements. KDE has already completed most of its flight testing in Russia.
CFM-56 is old news from 3 decades ago. Since then their template has been the same AL-31 which powers our MKIs & their Su-27 / J-11s.
Eventually after a long & hard struggle at development , they got a AL-31 clone in the WS-10 to replace the former around a decade ago.
The UK may have demanded India buy EF for MRFA as a pre-condition for RR co-operating on the engine prog. Their share of our def market has been falling since the sale of Hawk AJTs years ago.
All talk. Just talk. Lets see if he gives the moolah needed to make it actually possible.
I believe it will happen now. His speeches from red day fort are never just talk. This is not coming from DRDO, MoD or a babu. That's directly from PM. Most likely the project could come under PMO oversight even. There was talk of DRDO lab under PMO which got shelved due to DRDO insistence.
I remember his speech in first term when he mentioned Balochistan.. and now....
Bring GTRE under the prime minister, and add sufficient funds and manpower to expedite things. Set up all the labs in India, or do a joint venture to set up the required labs for the engine.
If possible, work with Brazil or Spain to build a 150-seater passenger plane. This will provide huge employment opportunities.