Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

Jaymax said:
We moved out when US engineered comparable deals and turned the screws tighter.
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Not exactly:

Our majority of oil supply comes from middle east OPEC countries (AFAIK). Their Brent Crude prices are fairly above Iran's heavy oil prices.

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I haven't seen any news of India getting cheaper than iran prices from OPEC.

Jaymax said:
No boots no real leverage. WRT to Pakistan/Afghanistan all Japan can manage is a smile and a reasonably firm handshake.
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It also matters how many boots, in what role and for how long. And indeed all Japan will do is smile when it comes to Pakistan / Afghanistan : they are simply not interested in this region.

Jaymax said:
We did not have the money to buy 114 Rafales. You think we could afford 50 F-35s?
PS - They are a bitch to maintain as well.
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Over a period of 5 years may be no, but over a period of 10 years may be yes. May not be 50 but surely 20 (18 in squadron with 2 in reserve). It is noteworthy that China does not have J-20 in numbers and J-20's engine is still not stealth or even fifth-gen. F-35 would have a definitive edge over anything Chinese could throw on us.

A plane that atleast can work is better than no plane at all. Even if it is bitch to maintain. Right now, we have no 5th gen plane and there is no plan of getting one. AMCA will come in next 100 years, if it at all comes.

Jaymax said:
And US also arm twists countries when its industries need a boost. The order when conceived was 10 Billion USD. At a time when US jet makers were shutting down lines no way in hell US would let this chance go.
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Well lets see... US has enough trade deficit with us to arm twist us anytime. It does it quite often. Why do you think that we stopped buying oil from Iran?
On that front btw, Russia does it too. Did Russia allow us to integrate Israeli missile in our Su-30MKI? And lets not even talk about the carrier.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1285667875659841540

Apparently, the US Congress is also mulling an Act empowering the US to consider a protection treaty with Taiwan which would entitle the US to come to Taiwan's assistance in case of an invasion.

I refuse to believe that this article along with the protection treaty contemplated , etc are unlinked from the China India face off at the LAC.
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Japan, Taiwan and Australia are primary support nodes for USA against PRC.

South Korea is tied down with NK and with its traditional differences with Japan wouldn't come to aid openly in an alliance against China.

Singapore is an important partner but it will not help in any direct confrontation.

Vietnam and Phillipines are both pinned down in SCS.

So it's pretty much the Quad , plus Taiwan in Pacific and France to an extent in IOR.
 
Jaymax said:
They are making progress on the ground. Our leadership is looking for escape clauses on technical points like - LAC was never clearly defined etc.

If that is indeed the case why do govt. should update the maps. The PM's statement directly contradicts the maps we publish.
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What about military option?
 
Jaymax said:
Will it help if we understand the Chinks have nukes too? Full City busters in the Megaton range.

You want to play the MAD game with them. Wont work. Conventionally we are by own admission building reserves to fight for 30 days of intense war. 30 days. Everyone talks of tanks and guns - they dont shoot bolts of lightning. Our ability to supply our troops in war beyond 7 weeks is put mildly - disturbing.
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This is cowardly. A tiny Irann doesn't think like this while messing with US. If they have nukes, we too have it. Our nukes should have been too advance by now. We don't know whether Manmohan Manmohan tried to cripple it like Gujaral and Morar ji Desai. Modi in one ralley had said that India has mother of all nuclear bomb. I think he is not bluffing.
 
HariPrasad said:
This is cowardly. A tiny Irann doesn't think like this while messing with US. If they have nukes, we too have it. Our nukes should have been too advance by now. We don't know whether Manmohan Manmohan tried to cripple it like Gujaral and Morar ji Desai. Modi in one ralley had said that India has mother of all nuclear bomb. I think he is not bluffing.
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Iran got away with it since the US did not have the stomach for a fresh fight that would linger on right after Afghanistan and Iraq.

China has no such issues.

The MOAB reference might be fluff. Other nations have bigger bombs in the Megaton range. India's capability in boosted fission or thermonuclear devices has always been up for debate.
 
Jaymax said:
GoI in its infinite wisdom does not want to exercise that option yet.
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What makes you think so? If it doesn't want to excercise the military option, why are we pulling troops out from as far as Hyderabad and sending them up north? We are not adequetly stocked for operation in that area. Do you want us to repeat 1962 when we did not even have bullets in place to fight a war? Finally who do you think will decide the time to start the war- GOI or Indian Armed Forces? Have forces told the govt that they are ready for action?
Fighting a war is a very very serious business and must be left for those who have been trained for it and are in saddle at the moment. People like me and you must trust our forces. They have not let the nation down while successive governments have always turned down their repeated appeals for better equipment and manpower.
Spent kartoos like me (Retd personnal) know how things work so please trust your forces. Lt. Gen YK Joshi had flown down to delhi two days after the last round of talks between the corps commanders? Do you think he came here urgenty to eat ice cream with the GOI top Brass? He came to explain the situation first hand and the option he has and the options the GOI has and what he needed to successfully exploit those options.
Lots of equipment is in the pipeline, let that be in place first. Once the IA says we are ready, GOI will give them the freedom.
The lessons of 1971 war and 1999 Kargil have been well learnt by our civilian leadership as far as giving time to forces are concerned. Indira wanted FM Sam Manekshaw to launch immidiate assault on East pakistan towards end of March. That was the level of naivity of our civilian leadership post Nehru-Menon era.
We got ready for war in 1971 in the month of October and from Nov onwards we started raiding PA across the border in East Pakistan. We forced them to launch all allout war as per our wishes. We will do the same with China. They wont even know what has hit them from where and how. Just remember this is not just about Aksai Hind, Its LAC complete.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
What makes you think so? If it doesn't want to excercise the military option, why are we pulling troops out from as far as Hyderabad and sending them up north? We are not adequetly stocked for operation in that area. Do you want us to repeat 1962 when we did not even have bullets in place to fight a war? Finally who do you think will decide the time to start the war- GOI or Indian Armed Forces? Have forces told the govt that they are ready for action?
Fighting a war is a very very serious business and must be left for those who have been trained for it and are in saddle at the moment. People like me and you must trust our forces. They have not let the nation down while successive governments have always turned down their repeated appeals for better equipment and manpower.
Spent kartoos like me (Retd personnal) know how things work so please trust your forces. Lt. Gen YK Joshi had flown down to delhi two days after the last round of talks between the corps commanders? Do you think he came here urgenty to eat ice cream with the GOI top Brass? He came to explain the situation first hand and the option he has and the options the GOI has and what he needed to successfully exploit those options.
Lots of equipment is in the pipeline, let that be in place first. Once the IA says we are ready, GOI will give them the freedom.
The lessons of 1971 war and 1999 Kargil have been well learnt by our civilian leadership as far as giving time to forces are concerned. Indira wanted FM Sam Manekshaw to launch immidiate assault on East pakistan towards end of March. That was the level of naivity of our civilian leadership post Nehru-Menon era.
We got ready for war in 1971 in the month of October and from Nov onwards we started raiding PA across the border in East Pakistan. We forced them to launch all allout war as per our wishes. We will do the same with China. They wont even know what has hit them from where and how. Just remember this is not just about Aksai Hind, Its LAC complete.
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Everybody is in too much of a hurry. People forget that the British took 4 years to prepare for the Normandy landings.
 
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Jaymax said:
Iran got away with it since the US did not have the stomach for a fresh fight that would linger on right after Afghanistan and Iraq.

China has no such issues.

The MOAB reference might be fluff. Other nations have bigger bombs in the Megaton range. India's capability in boosted fission or thermonuclear devices has always been up for debate.
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It might have been in debate in late nineties. More than two decades have past since than. The way India has progressed in science and technology in last two decades, I can safely assume that the same progress has been done in nuclear technology as well. We have mastered fast breeder technologies, we have advance reactors etc. No reason why we don't have made similar progress in nuclear technology? @vstol Jockey sir may throw some light on the subject.
 
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randomradio said:
Everybody is in too much of a hurry. People forget that the British took 4 years to prepare for the Normandy landings.
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India had more than 50 years to prepare and yet we cann't sustain war for more than 14 days. Someone dropped the ball hard.
Golden_Rule said:
That is meant for deception and confusing the enemy
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I doubt its enemy, more like general public.
 
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Jaymax said:
They are making progress on the ground. Our leadership is looking for escape clauses on technical points like - LAC was never clearly defined etc.

If that is indeed the case why do govt. should update the maps. The PM's statement directly contradicts the maps we publish.
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Agreed. I would like to add that LAC means line of actual control. i,e, the boundary of whatever you actually control is your LAC. By its very inherent definition LAC is always defined. If tomorrow we lose Ladakh, then LAC will simply move to south of Ladakh. Thats all. The government needs work on controlling the area which it politically defines. which happens to lie a few hundreds kilometers beyond the 'undefined' LAC.
 
Saaho said:
One needs to remember that Jaishankar even though is our foreign minister, is a former bureaucrat. "Non alignment" or its various flavours is something ingrained into Indian Foreign Services bureaucrat to the core.
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Saaho said:
India has "core interests". Sorry sir, when did that happen?
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I highly recommend this speech. It is a seminal one in my opinion. Necessary update to your perspective.


MEA | Statements : Speeches & Statements

External Affairs Minister's speech at the 4th Ramnath Goenka Lecture, 2019
www.mea.gov.in www.mea.gov.in
 
Ashwin said:
I highly recommend this speech. It is a seminal one in my opinion. Necessary update to your perspective.


MEA | Statements : Speeches & Statements

External Affairs Minister's speech at the 4th Ramnath Goenka Lecture, 2019
www.mea.gov.in www.mea.gov.in
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If US help and Support becomes Inevitable and Unavoidable in near future , Whose Call it will be

1 Modi , 2 S.Jaishankar , 3 Doval

I really think MEA is the Weak link in our strategy

They live in ivory towers of their own

We will Incur Massive costs and Casualties if we Dont ask for US support
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
1 Modi , 2 S.Jaishankar , 3 Doval
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ALL 3. And the south block need to be on-boarded to the idea. My incomplete and imperfect knowledge tells me that US will ask for a strategic shift from India for any ongoing help and support. Meaning, we will need to toe American lines a lot more than usual. May be dragged into conflicts which are essentially American. Do we want it, no exactly. Do we have a choice... somewhat less likely.

The other option is to accept Chinese dominance, which I personally say *censored* NO!
 
Saaho said:
ALL 3. And the south block need to be on-boarded to the idea. My incomplete and imperfect knowledge tells me that US will ask for a strategic shift from India for any ongoing help and support. Meaning, we will need to toe American lines a lot more than usual. May be dragged into conflicts which are essentially American. Do we want it, no exactly. Do we have a choice... somewhat less likely.

The other option is to accept Chinese dominance, which I personally say *censored* NO!
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We can have an alliance which will be explicitly and Totally focused on China
And against China

In Any case US China Cold war is just Starting

It will be much worse than the First Cold War

And Geography will make India the Frontline state

So we need not worry about getting dragged in other US interests such as
Middle East or Afghanistan

JAPAN -- US alliance is specifically against China

We need a similar model

We are just delaying the inevitable
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
I really think MEA is the Weak link in our strategy
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I am not as well versed in this part of concern but .... as much as I know there is a peace time MEA and there is a war time MEA. We are still making peace-time MEA do war time MEA's work. Its similar to Churchill vs Neville. We are making Neville do Churchill's job (its an analogy, please don't stretch it.)
STEPHEN COHEN said:
We can have an alliance which will be explicitly and Totally focused on China
And against China

In Any case US China Cold war is just Starting

It will be much worse than the First Cold War

And Geography will make India the Frontline state

So we need not worry about getting dragged in other US interests such as
Middle East or Afghanistan

JAPAN -- US alliance is specifically against China

We need a similar model

We are just delaying the inevitable
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This thing should have happened in 2000s itself or latest in first half of this decade.
 
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