Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

The Rafale costs even more. we would probably be seeing the Rafale price escalate in Switzerland too, but of course we will never know since Rafale lost there. The Rafale is the best fighter to ever drop out in Canada, lose in Switzerland, and place 3rd in Brazil. The same thing happened to the F-35 here, it won and from there on out got all the scrutiny from the bevy of losers. So we throw a competition, and France dropped out. do you know drop out? yes? to quit?

You are living on an other planet. Here on earth f-35 is alone against all the swiss voters. It can win or lose by it's own advantages or defaults.
Changing the price just 6 month after a win is ... perhaps not a good message. But there are still time before Swiss can vote on F-35 perhaps an other change can happenned on the price. Much inflation to come. Or perhaps Switzerland should give up direct democracy ?
 
@Dawg-69, Hei.

You’re not alone w/ the intuition Finland could not purchase the LightningII

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It seems a China-lm/aukus high intensity confrontation into southchinasea-pacific is becoming increasingly likely.

Then, i am pretty sure Russia would want to take advantage - territorially/militarily - in the Baltic area, while the US are fully engaged into the scs-pac theater.
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My questions in such a scenario, are about the northern-europe f35’s employability. I mean about the “extended” logistical aspects ; big picture.



For example, concerning the spares supplies for eurof35’s squadrons...

In 2019, The USGAO’s Report to Congressional Requesters, titled:
F-35 AIRCRAFT SUSTAINMENT -DOD Needs to Address Substantial Supply Chain Challenges declares, page2: F-35 aircraft performance is falling short of warfighter requirements—that is, aircraft cannot perform as many missions or fly as often as required.
This lower-than-desired aircraft performance is due largely to F-35 spare parts shortages and difficulty in managing and moving parts around the world:

• Spare parts shortages and limited repair capabilities. F-35 aircraft were unable to fly nearly 30 percent of the May—November 2018 time period due to spare parts shortages. Also, the Department of Defense (DOD) had a repair backlog of about 4,300 F-35 parts. DOD is taking steps to fix these issues, such as improving the reliability of parts. However, it has not fully dJe etermined actions needed to close the gap between warfighter requirements and the performance the F-35 supply chain can deliver.

And passim.

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Please, consider that in 2019, the “suppliers” weren’t engaged in a H/I conflict. Question: if this conflict happens (which it seems to come), would there be enough “spares supplies” for the eurof35s?

Since potus Obama, they tell us they “pivot” to Pacific., and “leave“ europe. So i might have a reasonable doubt.
And also, i still Have a persistent mental picture of the US living Bagramastan by night, like thieves….

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Another question i wonder is about data flows, i mean between “alis on the ground” and the supplier’s servers. I wonder about the bandwithd allowed to the european customers/theatre compared to the scspac area, that has priority…

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Finally, i want to add i thank you for your words about the f35 ‘s (un)employability on unprepared (or even errr “short-prepared”) landing/takeon ground. Even for f35b (in a “baltic area” conflict w/ russia, i imagine a uk’s implication) i have doubts... i’m afraid the lightningII needs too much care to be used in such doctrine.


Ahem,
@randomradio, the other day i was qwantling such keywords as “navy aircraft carrier patrol baltic sea, period: 1776-2021”
Answer: less than “peanuts”, ø.


Shukriya.

They build and sustain F-35s in Europe, there will be over 450 F-35s in Europe by 2030. You are trying to sow fear and doubt, and since even before world war II the Americans have built forces with the idea of a "Two Theater" war. That is why they have Pacific, and Atlantic fleets, bases in the east and the west its been like that for a long time, and I don't see that changing. They have added to NATO since the USSR collapsed
 
Just wondering, are LM thinking like Whohe? "They will buy F-35 anyways, so we can offer them what we want". Last time around the F-16 failed because of this approach. And now the F-35 will fail in HX. F-16 was the "favourite of the FAF". Just like F-35 is now, supposedly.

No F-35 for Finland, folks. Four left out of five.
WHOHE is a good lad though not the brightest of the lot. Unlike most of his compatriots who wear the star & stripes as their underpants , he wears it on his chest.

Were he an adult , he'd probably volunteer to serve in Afghanistan while it was on & later come back full of angst to cuss the US administration's policies there but that's a story for another day & thread.
 
You are living on an other planet. Here on earth f-35 is alone against all the swiss voters. It can win or lose by it's own advantages or defaults.
Changing the price just 6 month after a win is ... perhaps not a good message. But there are still time before Swiss can vote on F-35 perhaps an other change can happenned on the price. Much inflation to come. Or perhaps Switzerland should give up direct democracy ?
Swiss voted out the Gripen too and that is as cheap as it comes. The F-35 won the competition and beat the Rafale and Super Hornet and Typhoon, and your hope is that the F-35 gets voted out so you can claim a victory since misery loves company. Even with a vote we all know who won there, the world saw the Rafale lose. You are still bitter about it, which is why you carry on like the above and pray the Swiss vote out another fighter, or an air force altogether. The French are losers, so the goal is to make as many other people losers so you can have other people to point to that also lose, what is sad is you think people don't see it. What it looks like from here is Canada 2.0:

<Canada pick the F-35.
<F-35 wins on cost and capability.
<The price goes up.
<it falls into political turmoil.
< They try to buy something else only to find out that is even more expensive.
<they waste 10 years and billions of dollars keeping the hornets going
<end up right back where they started
 
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"Most capable" also means who is able to operate from maximum number of temporary airfields. If there is war, it is natural that airfields will be struck first. There are lots and lots of ballistic missiles in the potential enemy's inventory. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the Hornet was an ideal fit for FAF.

And in this respect it is firmly my belief that F-35 is least capable of the five.

When asked about the requirement for temporary airfields you said nothing. When asked for comparisons of rough field capability you also posted nothing. of the 5 aircraft competing in Finland, where do they rank in terms of what you are talking about? what are the numbers? How short can an F-35 take off compared to a Super Hornet in combat configuration?
 
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Quite frankly, the merits of the F-35 aside, given the emaciation of the British aerospace industry & the closure of the Canadian aerospace program for fighters following the cancellation of the Avro Arrow & given the "as close as lips & teeth relationship"( incidentally used by the CCP to describe the relationship between PRC & Pakistan ) between the US & Canada , it's honestly a waste of time for any other nation's OEM barring the aforementioned nations to consider participation in RCAF's procurement program.
That didn't stop Dassault for telling us for years how wonderful they are and entering the competition and the 1940th French Troll Brigade informing us via Quebec of course how wonderful it all was just to watch them waive the white flag early. Dassault never stood a real chance of course we know this, I know this, you know this, but they should have just stayed home instead of getting people excited just to let people down like they always do, and us having to hear about it again and again.
 
That didn't stop Dassault for telling us for years how wonderful they are and entering the competition and the 1940th French Troll Brigade informing us via Quebec of course how wonderful it all was just to watch them waive the white flag early. Dassault never stood a real chance of course we know this, I know this, you know this, but they should have just stayed home instead of getting people excited just to let people down like they always do, and us having to hear about it again and again.
Well , many nations have a rather poor opinion about the intellect of Canadians . When the French discovered they weren't getting the desired traction , they moved on . You know how it is .
 
What’s the use of carrying so many BVRAAMs for single mission ? Upto 4 BVRAAM with 2 WVRAAMs along with One centreline Fuel tank is what these types of aircraft carry in CAP missions.

Here a very detailed post by @Sancho

Still a bit tricky, since it's not easy to find reliable sources for EW, or radar sizes, but I still added that part too and for comparison, also put the light class Gripen C in the mix as well:
A lot of this stuff is outdated, or just recycled Saab claims from back before they even flew the first Gripen E prototype. Saab doesn't claim super cruise for the Gripen E anymore, and has not in years. when asked about it directly the marketing people actually get mad about it now and try to change the subject.
Well , many nations have a rather poor opinion about the intellect of Canadians . When the French discovered they weren't getting the desired traction , they moved on . You know how it is .
i do, but I would very much like it, if you quit the passive aggressive insults, that is the French way and they desperately need it lately as you can see from the reinforced French push we are getting here lately. They are not over Switzerland and now desperately need the Swiss people to vote it out so people forget that the F-35 beat them in both cost and capability. you know how it is ;)
 
A lot of this stuff is outdated, or just recycled Saab claims from back before they even flew the first Gripen E prototype. Saab doesn't claim super cruise for the Gripen E anymore, and has not in years. when asked about it directly the marketing people actually get mad about it now and try to change the subject.

i do, but I would very much like it, if you quit the passive aggressive insults, that is the French way and they desperately need it lately as you can see from the reinforced French push we are getting here lately. They are not over Switzerland and now desperately need the Swiss people to vote it out so people forget that the F-35 beat them in both cost and capability. you know how it is ;)
All that data was from unverified sources and possibly fake too. Point was no one uses all its hard points for carrying BVRAAMs even in Air Defence and CAP missions. So his point of JAS having advantage carrying 7 Meteors is not very credible. They need to carry Fuel tanks (2to3) and some pods for almost all missions, unlike say F15, Su30 etc.
 
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Finland will buy the F-35.

I'm gonna toss out the AUKUS drama and politics as a factor excuse before hand. I no longer think it's relevant.

Back to the better plane, better future, and better deterrence argument.
 
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Swiss voted out the Gripen too and that is as cheap as it comes. The F-35 won the competition and beat the Rafale and Super Hornet and Typhoon, and your hope is that the F-35 gets voted out so you can claim a victory since misery loves company. Even with a vote we all know who won there, the world saw the Rafale lose. You are still bitter about it, which is why you carry on like the above and pray the Swiss vote out another fighter, or an air force altogether. The French are losers, so the goal is to make as many other people losers so you can have other people to point to that also lose, what is sad is you think people don't see it. What it looks like from here is Canada 2.0:

<Canada pick the F-35.
<F-35 wins on cost and capability.
<The price goes up.
<it falls into political turmoil.
< They try to buy something else only to find out that is even more expensive.
<they waste 10 years and billions of dollars keeping the hornets going
<end up right back where they started
Oh he's making the rounds on every military forum parroting the same thing HOPING his wish comes true but unfortunately for him he will be disappointed with all his fellow fanboys at airdefense for once again believing in hope instead of the facts.
 
Finland will buy the F-35.

I'm gonna toss out the AUKUS drama and politics as a factor excuse before hand. I no longer think it's relevant.

Back to the better plane, better future, and better deterrence argument.
And Norway has already bought it and using it against Russians intruders. So together, they can utilise CEC of F35 more effectively.
 
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i do, but I would very much like it, if you quit the passive aggressive insults, that is the French way and they desperately need it lately as you can see from the reinforced French push we are getting here lately. They are not over Switzerland and now desperately need the Swiss people to vote it out so people forget that the F-35 beat them in both cost and capability. you know how it is ;)
What passive aggressive insults? Are you denying the fact that the US of all nations usually see Canadians as country cousins, pushovers & a bit daft? They actually came out with a book of jokes on Canada & Canadians.

I thought I told you before I've no dog in the fight here.

The French are indulging in what the Germans call schadenfreude. Why deny them their la petite mort? You know how it is.😉
 
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Here are the words use in Switzerland to prepare the vote :
Introduction

On September 27, the Swiss population accepted Project Air2030 by a very narrow majority. This close result highlights the strong opposition among the population to spending billions on luxury fighter aircraft. On June 30, 2021, the Federal Council decided to buy 36 F-35A Lightning IIs from Lockheed Martin for more than 5 billion francs, showing that it is absolutely not prepared to take a step towards the largest possible minority, the 49.9% who voted NO last September.

Of course, close results are part of democracy and must be respected. Nevertheless, if the population had not voted on an opaque and anti-democratic planning decree but on a concrete procurement project with a specific model of fighter aircraft, the result would certainly have been different. It should be noted that during the campaign, the two US models clearly emerged as the most controversial. It is now a question of avoiding the worst and allowing the population to express itself on a concrete acquisition project. It is out of the question for Switzerland to buy a stealth fighter that is extremely expensive to maintain, such as the F-35. Moreover, with the F-35, the CIA is still on board and Switzerland would not even have full access to the programs' source codes. Switzerland would not be able to use these fighters independently.

From the point of view of the unitary committee, however, this is far from being the only fighter aircraft that should be vehemently rejected.
Arguments against the F-35
Too big, too expensive

It is far from clear why a fighter aircraft for Switzerland should be equipped with stealth technology, as is the case with the F-35. Moreover, it is foreseeable that this technology will become obsolete in the next few years due to new detection techniques.

The F-35 is an oversized, overpriced luxury toy for a few military officers. This view is shared by the highest ranking officer in the U.S. Air Force, Charles Brown, who has called the F-35 a Ferrari used in a completely wrong way. Other senior members of the U.S. armed forces even call the F-35 a worthless aircraft.

It is an oversized aircraft designed solely for combat, not for the air policing missions that must be performed in an unquestionable manner. If this luxury fighter aircraft is used for daily air policing missions, the equipment will wear out far too quickly. These aircraft will then become a financial drain, something that Switzerland absolutely cannot afford in the wake of the pandemic. Sending a warplane like the F-35 into the air to intercept airliners, tourist and sports planes makes no sense at all. Light combat aircraft are more than sufficient for these missions and we support their purchase.

"High life cycle costs :

Various reports from abroad show that if Switzerland were to buy the F-35, it would have to reckon with enormous costs over the entire life cycle. An hour of flight time with an F-35 currently costs the US Air Force $44,000, although Lockheed Martin has been promising a reduction to $25,000 by 2025. The Canadian government commissioned a study by the renowned auditing firm KPMG, which concluded that the F-35, with a purchase volume of C$9 billion, would cost over C$45 billion over its lifetime. This corresponds to a factor of 1 to 5 compared to the purchase price alone. If we do the same calculation for Switzerland, it would correspond to a spectacular total cost of 25 billion Swiss francs for a purchase price of six billion francs. The former head of the army, André Blattmann, estimates annual costs of 12 percent of the purchase price, which would result in life-cycle costs of 23 billion francs over 30 years.
The Norwegian Ministry of Defence, which has purchased F-35 fighter jets, uses a factor of 3.75. For Switzerland, this would mean total costs of 18.75 billion Swiss francs, which is significantly higher than the DDPS estimate of 15.5 billion Swiss francs for the new fighter jets over the entire life of the aircraft. Such high lifetime costs for the new fighter aircraft would put other sectors of the armed forces under massive pressure to make savings or force the Federal Council to increase the armed forces budget even more, which would lead to budget cuts in other departments. Spain and Japan are also grappling with the high costs of the F-35 for air policing missions. Spain has already opted for a lighter aircraft. In fact, using super fighter aircraft for air policing missions is like shooting sparrows with guns. Not only is this completely absurd, but it would cost hundreds of millions of francs of our tax money. This madness must be prevented.
Can it fly?

Even after decades of development, the F-35 remains the problem child of the U.S. Air Force and Navy. In addition to amusing incidents such as its inability to fly in thunderstorms, the model has significant technical flaws:

In theory, Lockheed Martin's system should automatically order replacement parts. However, this software is also faulty, so parts have to be reordered manually. Lockheed Martin charges the resulting additional costs to the
customers.
A large part of the F-35 fleet in the US is still not operational. There are still more than 800 known defects - nearly a dozen of which are so serious that they could cause the aircraft to crash or endanger the lives of pilots.
Engines for the U.S. F-35 program are not being delivered quickly enough, so up to 6 percent of the fleet is expected to fail because of this one problem. The U.S. Air Force's F-35 readiness rate also remains consistently below target. For example, the Department of Defense has set a goal that 80 percent of all F-35s should always be capable of performing at least one mission, which is currently only possible for 69 percent. For the F-35A, i.e. the model that Switzerland wishes to purchase, the Department of Defense has set a target of
70 percent and has also reached it, although this figure is very low. By purchasing 36 aircraft, Switzerland would therefore have to count with 11 grounded aircraft.
The outer layer of the F-35 is regularly and very quickly damaged.

Instead of continuing to invest in improving the F-35 program, senior U.S. military officials are now openly considering developing an entirely new fighter aircraft or reverting to the F-16. Recently, for example, U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff Charles Q. Brown, declared the F-35 a failure Christoph Miller, acting secretary of defense under Trump, even called the jet a "piece of shit." This raises the question of whether Switzerland should really buy a jet that may no longer be produced and developed for the United States in just a few years.
Unsuitable for real-world conflict situations

Proponents of the new fighter jets like to point out that Switzerland and the Swiss Army must be prepared for all scenarios, no matter how unlikely. However, in the event of war, which is the only other operational situation for combat aircraft besides air policing, combat aircraft are totally unsuitable. Current wars, such as the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh or the conflict in eastern Ukraine, show that combat aircraft have played a secondary, if any, role in warfare. Instead, cheaper drones and guided weapons have been increasingly used. Russian-made Iskander-M ballistic missiles, such as those used by Armenia, have a range of up to 500 km. These would paralyze the entire Swiss air force in a few hours by destroying the runways.

The former head of the Swiss Army André Blatmann shares this opinion. Thus, according to him, combat aircraft are designed to deal with adversaries that no longer really exist in crises and conflicts near Switzerland.
What influence does the USA have?
Two American officers are already stationed in Dübendorf to regularly inspect weapons systems and aircraft purchased in the USA. The basis for this is the strict US ITAR legislation, according to which the US remains solely responsible worldwide for the safekeeping of particularly sensitive technical components. Control of the F/A-18 software remains in the hands of the manufacturer Boeing. Switzerland must obtain permission from Washington to fire short-range guided missiles. The navigation system also only works with codes that are delivered once a month from the USA. The increasing technical complexity makes Switzerland even more dependent on the USA. The ODIN system installed in the F-35, for example, provides Lockheed Martin with mission data after each flight. Officially, this is supposed to guarantee the automatic replenishment of spare parts, but the system goes much further. In this way, Switzerland also provides the US military with detailed information about its missions and much more.

One can assume that Switzerland would not be able to maintain its air sovereignty against the will of the US. Either the fighters would remain directly on the ground because of built-in backdoors, or they would be prevented from taking off at the latest if the supply of spare parts by the manufacturers does not materialize. If this supply chain is interrupted, the aircraft may not be able to fly within six months. In the case of longer missions, comparable to the war in Iraq in the early 2000s, Switzerland could also be forced to let US fighter planes fly overhead.

The US military-industrial complex and armed forces ensure that the economic and geostrategic interests of the government and big business are safeguarded, if necessary, by force or military intervention. Lockheed Martin is one of the largest producers of military goods. The company produces nuclear weapons as well as other prohibited weapons. Switzerland would therefore pay five billion to a company that produces prohibited weapons in Switzerland.

The US military does not hide the fact that the sale of military goods also serves to promote its own interests. With the considerable development of communications between the various military systems, there is a risk that Swiss aircraft will not only be used to protect Swiss airspace in the future. So far, the DDPS has not clarified this point, which raises many questions. With a US fighter, Switzerland would be taking another step towards NATO. In the case of the F-35, for example, it is very openly announced what the real objective of a sale of this aircraft is: the integration of all users into a common military structure.
Initiative text

Federal popular initiative "Against the F-35 (Stop F-35)

The Constitution is amended as follows:

Art. 197, ch. 13

13. Transitional provision to Art. 60 (Organisation, training and equipment of the armed forces)

1 The Confederation shall not purchase F-35 fighter aircraft. 2 The armed forces budget shall be adjusted accordingly.
3 This provision shall cease to have effect on 1 January 2040.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Sorry guys that the game. But when Armasuisse give reason to believe political words that's a hit to f-35.

Some arguments are fine, especially the cost and WIP nature of the F-35. But some are plain dumb, like drones and BMs.
Well then folks. Interesting news from the Finnish forum (where I am banned twenty times over): the evaluation process is now done with and ready. The HX team is preparing their assessment and recommendation for the government people. After the paperwork is done, the matter is given to the Ministry of Defense, whatever that means. I am not very good with bureaucracy and I don't know how they really handle the process according to every little rule.

But - the assessment is done. They know, but we know. And no-one knows what the political machine will do. Interesting times.

It won't be the F-35 :) this much I "know" :)

So, let the best jet win.
 
Is that the one where you deceptively and dishonestly cut up a direct quote or one of your other dishonest posts? its hard to keep track

Every single post you made was based on bad faith the entire time, talking about humility, irreverance to the data I put forth, using your own sources to support my argument, and then when I actually quoted at least one of the parts you agreed with, you got pushed into a corner and simply decided to personally attack. Your very MO is what you are accusing me of.

I still haven't received my answer to 2825.
 
It won't be the F-35 :) this much I "know" :)
The US pressure is far too strong for Finland to resist. For example:

“We are writing today concerning Finland’s fighter jet competition and to request the White House support U.S. efforts to win this race,” reads the Sept. 13 letter obtained by NatSec Daily, the contents of which haven’t been previously reported. “We request the White House work closely with our Finnish partners to finalize this competition, and we ask that all departments and agencies be directed to fully support this effort.”​

Please note that "all departments and agencies" obviously includes the NSA, the CIA, and every other shadowy TLA in Uncle Sam's employ. You should therefore expect generalized blackmailing and bribing. With this amount of lobbying, the F-35 is the only politically safe choice. It's a done deal.
 
Is F35 capable of carrying high frequency electromagnetic radiation beams to target the EW suite for DF analysis later on? Can this also be integrated to Rafales?