Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Spitfire6]

We will discuss again in 2030, when the F-35 actually becomes fully operational.

F-35 is operational now, and of course the Rafale won't ever be going supercruise in any meaningful capacity and won't be "Onmirole" until 2030 when it can do the SEAD/DEAD mission that the F-35 had from the start.
the irony (or is it a double standard?) of you calling for reasonable capability analysis but then deciding things are "useless" arbitrarily is really a sight to see.
everytime you are cornered on the Rafale you try and distract and obfusicate about the F-35 it might be interesting if it was not so obvious.
bu... bu... but F-35!
its funny to me that you LARP as some kind of analyst but it never seemed "odd" to you that you can find pages of things on the F-35 Block 4 alone, but for the "Supercruise" you insisted Rafale had you were relagated to scant crumbs.

As for how long... let me put it this way, the F-22 will do worse at such altitudes than the Rafale 'cause its wings and control surfaces are smaller than the Rafale's,

F-22 Wing area: 78.04 m 2
Wraffle wing Area: 46.00 m 2

F-22 wing span: 13.6 M
Wraffle wing span: 10.9 M

so the Rafale is going to be a lot more stable at such altitudes. That's also why it performs better than aircraft like the F-22 in the thin air of the Himalayas. It's also why the IAF like fighter jets with massive wings, like LCA and AMCA. The F-22 will have to use more thrust and TVC to fly stably, but that consumes more fuel than the Rafale, whereas the Rafale's flying up there with 3 tanks.

That is completely false. The F-22 was DESIGNED to operate at Altitudes well in excess of what the Rafale can do. "operate" meaning actually accomplish its mission at those altitudes. That is what the large tailfins, large contol surfaces, and Thrust Vectoring is for. F-22s operate at altitudes well in excess of the Himalyas in air that is far more thin. excessive altitudes were required by the ATF requirements. The YF-23 also had impressively large Pelican tails. the F-22 actually reduced the tailsize from the YF-22 because the control issues never materialized, and even then the tailfins are around the size of an F-16s entire wing. So no the F-22 doesn't have to use more thrust and TVC to fly stabiliy, they actually discovered they had gone too far stability and had to back it off. The F-22 has two tailfins for just this reason. How can the Rafale have somparitive size wings and control surfaces when the Rafale is smaller than the Eurofighter? The Rafale was never DESIGNED to be big. MCX from the start knew that the Rafale would be smaller than the Eurofighter project because it had to land on a ship. Once again you prefer descriptive words over actual, real measurements.
by your own measurments the F-22 is more stable, and even beyond the notion that the F-22 TVC burns excessive fuel (no) the fact that the F-22 possesses TVC at all for the excessive altitude and thin air destroys your entire arguement. Your ability to try and have things "both ways" is truly astounding.

it is like you are trying to convince us the poor man is actually rich because gold is very heavy!!

I understand that you love the rafale, but this is getting ridiculous. Nothing makes the Rafale look more silly than its brainwashed fans. This is the Sueprcruise thing all over again where you try to convince us that the Rafale can do everything the F-22 can by pure luck when in reality a lot of design had to go into the F-22. Consult the development documents of Rafale, there is nothing in there about acheiving F-22 levels of Supercruise, maneuver, alititude etc.

completely invented propaganda from someone who pretends to be this brilliant analyst but can't even get basic facts right. the Rafale has big wings! compared to what?

stop trying to compare the Rafale to the F-22, Rafale is not an F-22 and it never will be. We know Rafale is not an F-22 because the Indian Air Force doesn't use it that way, and of course the Flanker is still the king in the air in India. Why on earth Indias "F-22" ASF Rafale is not being used that way should be extremely telling about the gap between Randomradio's wet dreams and the actual limits of the Rafale.

the Rafale is not an ASF, There you go Randomradio I just saved you additional pages of humiliations on the internet. Rafale was never designed as an ASF. Can it do the air superiority mission? sure. designed as an ASF with bomb capability added later like the F-22? never. I don't know why you decided to pick a fight with the F-22 in the areas it was designed to dominate. you couldn't even get the wing area right. Rafales are small, they were designed that way before the first porotypes took to the sky because it had to fit on French carriers. Nothing shameful in being small, but you are not going to have "bigger wings" than an F-22.
The F-22 was DESIGNED to fly at the edge of space, Rafale was not at all. Why are you insisting on matching them up in such a way other to make wraflle look like a waffle? One of the worst things for someone to do is to advocate for something in such a dishonest way as to turn people away from the real virtues the subject actually held.
it seems like every day you prove again and again that the wraffle is not an ASF at all, by giving it charecteristics it does not possess as "proof" of its ability, but instead you set an impossible standard that the wraffle fails in humilating fashion. I assume it is on purpose because you can find a wikipedia footnote on the rafales supercruise from 2007, but can't be bothered to even check the span and area of the F-22 vs the Rafale before posting that the Rafale is somehow bigger than an F-22.

 

[Spitfire6]

Why would integrate Brahmos when F35 cannot carry that inside its weapon bay?

this is my question. Why are you buying F-35 to be Brahmos plunker when the Flanker already does this job?

The most simply stated reason for India to pursue the F-35 is that it brings capabilities that India does not currently possess.

For all the back and forth about the F-35 etc, the Rafale and the F-35 are not interchangable. the UAE has said this. the Greeks getting both. many nations have opted for F-35 over Rafale, or Gripen over Rafale in some contests. Rafale and F-35 are more similiar than different but the F-35 has the edge historically. the main reason to buy the Rafale is being on the US naughty lists, potentially to be on the US naughty list, or just an excess of money to buy everything like Arabia. Crotia wanted F-16s before the Americans told them "no"

speaking of Flanker it still seems to be the lynchpin of the Indian Air Force and Air Combat Strategy, this makes Rafale 2nd place in its own house, despite the confusion that its somehow an F-22

India won't buy any aircraft if there will be no integration, I don't think there is any debate on that. F 35 deal is very unlikely.

I do not know what this means for India, because Pakistan will get more capable aircraft via China. F-35 is a no go for various reasons, and the Su-57 is the most "vapor ware" option-- short of the next generation of Eurocanards of course. of which will be hopefully on par with what the Americans were going 20 years ago. Time doesn't stand still and the Americans are already onto the next big thing. They have the money and silicon valley. Europe is still working on its first internet social networking site like facebook or twitter, and the economics of Europe are getting so grim that it makes me want to hide in a bunker. The most definitive aspect of modern combat aircraft has been money, money, and more money. most of these projects are going to burn a lot of money. run into troubles that burn more money, perhaps produce something that is unaffordable in 20 years, all so it can be bought in a handful of numbers that do not meet scale models to bring down costs which creates the death spiral. I think a lot of these projects will simply spend the money until it runs out and that will be the end of it. imagine the UK fighter development costing say 50 billion in development but they only have 30 billion. They will spend the 30 billion and have nothing to show.
remember when the PAKFA took off, with the F-22 in deep trouble, and the F-35 at its lowest point we were told by Russiaphiles that the west was about to learn what competent 5th generation fighter development looked like, and then Russia "took the knock" and learned that 5th generation fighters are really difficult.

 

[Spitfire6]

This is exactly what I wanted to know. Without this, F35 can't be used to it's maximum potential, the same issue Indians are having with Rafale. A very potent aircraft but restricted to go full potential, some how Indians managed. I am not sure, if the French Airforce has access to Rafale source code or it is patent property of Dassault Aviation. Plagiarism is a very serious matter in the west.



Brahmos NG could be perhaps fitted also the Brahmos 2. Point is every time you need to ask them to fit the weapons

Like the Berke video says, the F-35 trades weapons for access. The F-35 carrying the Brahmos is meaningless. Getting deep into enemy spaces and highlighting targets for other aircraft to fire Brahmos is the goal. Switzerland bought F-35 and Patriot to be an IADS. How many AAM can F-35 carry in Swiss defense? it doesn't really matter because the F-35 doesn't "carry" the missiles the F-35 uses. same with the Finns and their tracked rockets of the Polish and their HIMARs. Once this concept is understood the F-35 makes far more sense. the US navy wants to have the F-35C do this mission for both air defense and surface attack. The Rafale is a French aircraft made with limited French resources. The reason that SEAD/DEAD is being understood finally is the realization that the Rafale is much closer to an F-117 than an F-35. Rafale penetrates hits its target and the leaves with the enemy defense left intact to save munitions. To destroy an IADS is not quick or easy and requires a lot of weapons and specialization that the French will never have enough of. so the plan was to be sneaky. Ukraine has proven that won't work anymore because you never control the airspace, just the area around the Rafale in the times it is airborne. the intact IADS can be used to target drones and cruise missiles.

 

[Zarion]

I do not know what this means for India, because Pakistan will get more capable aircraft via China. F-35 is a no go for various reasons, and the Su-57 is the most "vapor ware" option-- short of the next generation of Eurocanards of course. of which will be hopefully on par with what the Americans were going 20 years ago. Time doesn't stand still and the Americans are already onto the next big thing. They have the money and silicon valley. Europe is still working on its first internet social networking site like facebook or twitter, and the economics of Europe are getting so grim that it makes me want to hide in a bunker. The most definitive aspect of modern combat aircraft has been money, money, and more money. most of these projects are going to burn a lot of money. run into troubles that burn more money, perhaps produce something that is unaffordable in 20 years, all so it can be bought in a handful of numbers that do not meet scale models to bring down costs which creates the death spiral. I think a lot of these projects will simply spend the money until it runs out and that will be the end of it. imagine the UK fighter development costing say 50 billion in development but they only have 30 billion. They will spend the 30 billion and have nothing to show.
remember when the PAKFA took off, with the F-22 in deep trouble, and the F-35 at its lowest point we were told by Russiaphiles that the west was about to learn what competent 5th generation fighter development looked like, and then Russia "took the knock" and learned that 5th generation fighters are really difficult.

I don't doubt the F 35, I am just stating what is pretty evident from past IAF acquisitions and it makes sense as well because if we don't get things like Astra series, Rudram series integrated into the F 35 then we'll have a very big capability gap in a large scale war. I am not even considering things like Brahmos and SDRs, Link 16, etc which are very essential for proper utilization of the F 35 and these will cost a ton of money and in some cases won't be allowed due to Russian footprint like in the Netra AEW&Cs and Brahmos. I consider the F 35 the best aircraft in the world but that is with the American network of AEW&Cs, Missiles, etc.

I think this is a near impossible deal simply because there is no reason for the US to sell us F 35 with such integration in the Indian network, and especially with Trump in the house with his unpredictable mood swings. Ultimately, India is on it's own just like any other country in the world and we'll have to find the solution ourselves.

But hey we do have some breakthrough like the VHF radar for stealth aircraft, of course we still need a system to destroy the target. We have the Swift K and CATS system though not enough for a large scale war, I think we can utilize them.

As for Europe things are pretty bad honestly, UK is making the "6 th gen fighter" but I don't know what's sixth gen in it because the engine is EJ 200, I don't think there is a GaN based radar yet for the jet, I maybe wrong about it though.

 

[Spitfire6]

I don't doubt the F 35, I am just stating what is pretty evident from past IAF acquisitions and it makes sense as well because if we don't get things like Astra series, Rudram series integrated into the F 35 then we'll have a very big capability gap in a large scale war. I am not even considering things like Brahmos and SDRs, Link 16, etc which are very essential for proper utilization of the F 35 and these will cost a ton of money and in some cases won't be allowed due to Russian footprint like in the Netra AEW&Cs and Brahmos. I consider the F 35 the best aircraft in the world but that is with the American network of AEW&Cs, Missiles, etc.

your point is well taken and well explained.

I think this is a near impossible deal simply because there is no reason for the US to sell us F 35 with such integration in the Indian network, and especially with Trump in the house with his unpredictable mood swings. Ultimately, India is on it's own just like any other country in the world and we'll have to find the solution ourselves.

But hey we do have some breakthrough like the VHF radar for stealth aircraft, of course we still need a system to destroy the target. We have the Swift K and CATS system though not enough for a large scale war, I think we can utilize them.

the integration issues you mention aside I think Trump's unpredictability would be an asset to India regarding the F-35. the UAE was a deal done under Trump before it was derailed. The US wanting to isolate China and improve relations with India would be a large reason for the F-35. I am no expert in Geopolitics, but if India went full tilt toward wanting the F-35 and full flattery with mister Trump, I think they could get it. I wouldn't bet against India in such a case. This is a complicated subject I do not underestimate it, but Trump has a proclivity of simply picking up the phone and sorting things that take diplomats years.

The US is going to continue to pursue a closeness to India and will continue to try and sell them weapons even if it is not F-35s. I presume the US would be very keen to sell India F-15EX especially as it drives a wedge against Russian Flankers. How successful this will be I have my doubts but the Americans are willing if India went full into the proposition.

I think the Su-57 may well be the best for India but I don't think Russia is in a hurry to develop and produce. India would have to pay a lot of money to expand the program and support it and then set up the necessary infrastructure to support the entire thing. I am not an expert in this subject but from what I can see India would not only have to fund a large portion of this but likely physically contribute to the development with egineers, facilities etc and not just for a "made in india" sticker, but for the fact that the Russians will not do it on their own in a timely fashion provided they have the money to start with...

As for Europe things are pretty bad honestly, UK is making the "6 th gen fighter" but I don't know what's sixth gen in it because the engine is EJ 200, I don't think there is a GaN based radar yet for the jet, I maybe wrong about it though.

The Americans are a "Generation" ahead on just about everything. The UK as you say has nothing beyond Eurofighter but the US already looking beyond F119 and F135 toward adaptive engines etc.
The US and F-47 from Boring, a "6th gen-like" F-35 from LM, whatever twin F-35 Trump is talking about, and an ADVENT engine F-35. How many of these things come to pass is yet to be seen, but the US is simply invested in this and already laid the ground work for the advanced development of world-leading combat aircraft, and already looking at an F-22 replacement in an era where the UK won't even be able to produce an F-22 equivalent. Europe in not in a good place and the UK in particular seems very bad.
Russia is exerting a kind of pressure that European are continuing to reconcile.


In the final analysis, all the hooplah to denegrate an F-35 aircraft that India is highly unlikely to decide they want seems silly, but then again so does presenting the Rafale as an edge of space superfighter.

 

[Spitfire6]

how can anyone talk about jingoism but write this?:

Rafale is going to be a lot more stable at such altitudes. That's also why it performs better than aircraft like the F-22 in the thin air of the Himalayas. It's also why the IAF like fighter jets with massive wings

talk about "jingoistic" takes! ah yes the Himalayan advantaged, "massive wing" Rafale of the Indian Air Force...

and none of your other posts indicate much understanding for the simple things, let alone complex things. If this was a quiz game show you would be thousands in debt!

Who has bigger wings F-22 or Rafale ? oh I'm sorry the answer was F-22.
This aircraft is notable for its supercruise? I am sorry, The answer was F-22 and everyone knew that one, should have listened to the audience there!
This aircraft is known as omnirole. No I'm sorry you said F-22, the answer to that one for once was Rafale, we really tried to give you that one, you just always say "Rafale" and the audience felt bad for you

well anyway we do our best here but some contestants are just here to look funny on TV, folks.

I wouldn't mind your bad takes and wrong assertions if you weren't so rude about everyone being dumb before you say something that is so insanely ignorant and easily dispelled that I am not even sure you are in the right forum.

fun times; I did a youtube search for F-22 Supercruise and found many videos. I then searched Rafale pilot "Ate Chuet Rafale Supercruise," and the only video that popped up was taking about the F-22!
I went to Ate's youtube page and searched for "supercruise" again and I got a video on the F-47!
in 818 videos that Ate Chuet has made and currently has on youtube, not one of them talks about Supercruise for the Rafale. perhaps its mentioned in passing somewhere else? but at no point does the Rafales amazeballs supercruise rate even its own video, even as you try to convince us that it is a key feature of the Rafales capability.

honest question # what is your personal infatuation with the Rafale? is it what you think the Rafale is? What the Rafale actually is? Something external? did you fall in love in Paris or something?
the Rafale you are in love with doesn't seem to be what Rafale is in reality. I just want to know what lead to the idealization of this thing and how you became convinced it was an F-22 analogue. Are the French posters here really that convincing? can you explain this please? srs

 

[randomradio]

I don't think the US will sell it to you without jumping through a lot of hoops. Take the UAE and others that have been rejected.

The US wants to sell it to us. We don't want it.

Don't lump us in with desert donkeys when we have a space program.

 

[randomradio]

F-35 is operational now,

Not as per the Pentagon.

F-22 Wing area: 78.04 m 2
Wraffle wing Area: 46.00 m 2

F-22 wing span: 13.6 M
Wraffle wing span: 10.9 M

F-22 wing loading at loaded weight = 360 kg/m2.
Rafale wing loading = 320 kg/m2.

Wing carries lesser weight with more fuel fraction. Rafale wins.

With a normalized fuel fraction, we get 310 kg/m2. Rafale wins by a mile.

That is completely false. The F-22 was DESIGNED to operate at Altitudes well in excess of what the Rafale can do. "operate" meaning actually accomplish its mission at those altitudes.

Maybe so, but only without a pilot.

Pilots with G-suits breach the 60000 feet ceiling only to zoom climb, fire missiles, and drop back to an altitude where pilots can breathe again. Nobody "operates" at 70000 feet with a G-suit, including the F-22.

 

[Lolwa]

India won't buy any aircraft if there will be no integration, I don't think there is any debate on that. F 35 deal is very unlikely.

F-35 deal is dead. It's never happening now. We need to get hands on the su-57 and integrate the r-37m/rvv-bd fleetwide on the Flankers. It's over.

 

[randomradio]

Like the Berke video says, the F-35 trades weapons for access.

Is that why the Pentagon has been integrating standoff ARMs on the F-35s?

What about JASSM, LRASM, and JSM?

 

[randomradio]

Russian footprint like in the Netra AEW&Cs

Nothing there.

I consider the F 35 the best aircraft in the world but that is with the American network of AEW&Cs, Missiles, etc.

Me too. Except its still the case only on paper. Paper F-35 beats Rafale by a wide margin. But real Rafale is better than paper F-35.

But hey we do have some breakthrough like the VHF radar for stealth aircraft, of course we still need a system to destroy the target. We have the Swift K and CATS system though not enough for a large scale war, I think we can utilize them.

Ghatak will be our penetrating aircraft.

As for Europe things are pretty bad honestly, UK is making the "6 th gen fighter" but I don't know what's sixth gen in it because the engine is EJ 200, I don't think there is a GaN based radar yet for the jet, I maybe wrong about it though.

Their GCAP plan is good. They have GaN, like the Typhoon's ECRS Mk2. And their engine tech is as advanced as what's been planned for NGAD.

If you don't consider their less capable demands from their airframe and lower NCW requirements, given the tight development time, the primary avionics and engine will be as good as NGAD.

GCAP's ACPs also seem to be more sophisticated than what the USAF's planned for their CCAs. All partners have their own programs.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Are the French posters here really that convincing?

It's not that we're good, it's that you're particularly bad.

 

[randomradio]

talk about "jingoistic" takes! ah yes the Himalayan advantaged, "massive wing" Rafale of the Indian Air Force...

Look up "wing loading."

As I said before, ask around.

You know nothing, spitfire.

and none of your other posts indicate much understanding for the simple things, let alone complex things. If this was a quiz game show you would be thousands in debt!

honest question # what is your personal infatuation with the Rafale?

I argue for the Rafale when people take up views against the Rafale, and I argue for the F-35 when people take up views against the F-35. That's my shtick.

Definition of CONTRARIAN

a person who takes a contrary position or attitude; specifically : an investor who buys shares of stock when most others are selling and sells when others are buying… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I operate in the gray area.

 

[Optimist]

Look up "wing loading."

Look up "body lift"

 

[randomradio]

Look up "body lift"

Lol. What about it? Can you explain?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Lol. What about it? Can you explain?

Body lift like Flankers/Felon have got due to their widely spaced engines, reduce wing-loading hugely. So their actual wing-loading is lot lower than what is shown on the paper.

He is referring about similar body-lift redcing wing-loading in the context of American jets(F-22/35 etc.).

 

[randomradio]

Body lift like Flankers/Felon have got due to their widely spaced engines, reduce wing-loading hugely. So their actual wing-loading is lot lower than what is shown on the paper.

He is referring about similar body-lift redcing wing-loading in the context of American jets(F-22/35 etc.).

I was being rhetorical 'cause he just brought it up out of nowhere.

 

[screambowl]

Getting deep into enemy spaces and highlighting targets for other aircraft to fire Brahmos is the goal.

How long this will be feasible is just a matter of time. With the 5th gen going obsolete in coming 10 years, there will be counter measures to detect 5th gen within enemy airspace at short ranges. The only way to carry on with 5th Gen is to make it more lethal with standoff weapons and BVR, this suits Indian geography. Some what more like an airspace submarine listening and detecting and mounting a strike without getting detected with safer ranges, also for the second strike capability.

 

[Rajput Lion]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1925875510363516987

Will we get GE414 deal ?

Seems France / Russia would be country we ll have major deal in this term.

No, no.......we need F-35, by far the best and most beautiful combat jet ever designed. Uncle Sam is our saviour. Screw Russia and France. All hail Uncle Sam 'cause the world is America and America is the world.

Right @Hydra, @Innominate, @Optimist, @jk007, @RASALGHUL

@Parthu, do you still support F-35 acquisition post this behaviour by Trump?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Some F-35 fans like Ric Nunes, Corsair1963 on F-16.net and @Innominate, @Optimist etc. here sound like F-35 is be all, end all against all enemies. Here is "official" USAF saying this:

“The F-47 will be that next generation. It will be able to go places the F-35 can’t go. That’s part of what makes it sixth-gen, that step forward in signature management.”

Source: 412th Test Wing Commander Talks F-47, B-21 Testing, AI Agents, YF-23 and More

@randomradio, @Parthu

Kindly read the whole article. USAF is officially acknowledging that F-35 can't penetrate Chinese A2/AD bubble. F-47 is required to do that. Which means buying F-35 to take on PLAAF, when USAF themselves are not sure, is total waste of money for us. What say?