Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

No, no.......we need F-35, by far the best and most beautiful combat jet ever designed. Uncle Sam is our saviour. Screw Russia and France. All hail Uncle Sam 'cause the world is America and America is the world.

Right @Hydra, @Innominate, @Optimist, @jk007, @RASALGHUL 🤣🤣

@Parthu, do you still support F-35 acquisition post this behaviour by Trump?
F-35 is still relevant. Presidents will come and go, geopolitical interests remain.

He is posturing for political gains, a typical midwit who knows nothing about how the world works.

Today, Putin and Russia are becoming increasingly unreliable for us. This trend will only worsen. When evaluating solutions that we plan for the medium to long term, the F-35 is a strong contender.
 
No, no.......we need F-35, by far the best and most beautiful combat jet ever designed. Uncle Sam is our saviour. Screw Russia and France. All hail Uncle Sam 'cause the world is America and America is the world.
It's just the best aircraft you can buy today. Will there be better aircraft? Of course there will be and Australia is currently looking at buying them.

2 years ago

last year

this year
 
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Some F-35 fans like Ric Nunes, Corsair1963 on F-16.net and @Innominate, @Optimist etc. here sound like F-35 is be all, end all against all enemies. Here is "official" USAF saying this:

“The F-47 will be that next generation. It will be able to go places the F-35 can’t go. That’s part of what makes it sixth-gen, that step forward in signature management.”

Source: 412th Test Wing Commander Talks F-47, B-21 Testing, AI Agents, YF-23 and More

@randomradio, @Parthu

Kindly read the whole article. USAF is officially acknowledging that F-35 can't penetrate Chinese A2/AD bubble. F-47 is required to do that. Which means buying F-35 to take on PLAAF, when USAF themselves are not sure, is total waste of money for us. What say?
Refer to my above post
 
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Some F-35 fans like Ric Nunes, Corsair1963 on F-16.net and @Innominate, @Optimist etc. here sound like F-35 is be all, end all against all enemies. Here is "official" USAF saying this:

“The F-47 will be that next generation. It will be able to go places the F-35 can’t go. That’s part of what makes it sixth-gen, that step forward in signature management.”

Source: 412th Test Wing Commander Talks F-47, B-21 Testing, AI Agents, YF-23 and More

@randomradio, @Parthu

Kindly read the whole article. USAF is officially acknowledging that F-35 can't penetrate Chinese A2/AD bubble. F-47 is required to do that. Which means buying F-35 to take on PLAAF, when USAF themselves are not sure, is total waste of money for us. What say?
Man you people are suckers. In 20 years the F-47 (according to a future USAF General) won't be able to go places where the F-50 (tech demonstrator) can go therefor we need F-50 funding. Over ten years ago it was two F-22's can do what it would take 8 F-35's then F-22 gets its upgrade funding and now we find out of the F-35 is our backbone of USAF air superiority, SEAD/DEAD and interdiction.

You Indians act like a scorn chic who got hurt when F-35 was off the table and you threw a tantrum saying we never wanted the F-35 anyway!

You try really hard to find a reason to hate it with ridiculous claims and fail miserably. You Indians need to concentrate in how deep trouble the IAF is and will be for the foreseeable future. Many fools made claims the Rafale was more than good enough to take on the J-20 so fooey on F-35 then 3 Rafales get shot down in air combat (one visual confirmation other two PAF claim) by an export J-10 flown by a failed third world country smacking the IAF and many in here with a dose of reality. Only a couple in here have double down on Rafale because they live in some alternate reality but the rest have woken up. If you think the F-35 can't penetrate PLA IADS and take them out or easily handle J-20s it says more about the mentality of the people (you) who think this way. If you really believe this then you have to admit that the IAF is totally outclassed by the PLAAF with IAF's all 4th gen fighter fleet in which its most advanced fighter got shot down in recent air battle against another 4th gen fighter.
 
No, no.......we need F-35, by far the best and most beautiful combat jet ever designed. Uncle Sam is our saviour. Screw Russia and France. All hail Uncle Sam 'cause the world is America and America is the world.

Except for engine and the airframe, most of the things will go obsolete, I also sense modification in engine control module as well. The way AI is developing, most of the weapon platforms will be AI supported, based on neural designs. US will never provide that technology to India. The Chinese have their own plans of having AI platforms developed for their weapon system and by 2027-2028 they could bring a new mission computer for their J35 so will the Americans for their F35.
 
Except for engine and the airframe, most of the things will go obsolete, I also sense modification in engine control module as well. The way AI is developing, most of the weapon platforms will be AI supported, based on neural designs. US will never provide that technology to India. The Chinese have their own plans of having AI platforms developed for their weapon system and by 2027-2028 they could bring a new mission computer for their J35 so will the Americans for their F35.
We're waay ahead in AI-tech than what is out in the public domain. US of A can shove their AI, we don't need it. In fact, we don't need any American tech now. Even in ISTAR terms, the way ISRO has planned to launch satellites within next few years, we would become self-sufficient in this domain too.
 
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Man you people are suckers. In 20 years the F-47 (according to a future USAF General) won't be able to go places where the F-50 (tech demonstrator) can go therefor we need F-50 funding. Over ten years ago it was two F-22's can do what it would take 8 F-35's then F-22 gets its upgrade funding and now we find out of the F-35 is our backbone of USAF air superiority, SEAD/DEAD and interdiction.
At least get the FOC for the damned Lightnings on schedule whatever it is, sweetie before shooting from the hip.

For a nation which pioneered airplanes & with the most sophisticated MIC in the world ever , dedicated to air warfare , the way you guys have run this program is both a disgrace & an embarrassment.
You Indians act like a scorn chic who got hurt when F-35 was off the table and you threw a tantrum saying we never wanted the F-35 anyway!

Sincere advice , do read up on the trials & travails of how the IAF took a sub standard FA like the Gnat & made it their own through various modifications to it in spite of losing 40-50 pilots in it due to a lot of design inefficiencies , mfg defects from the kits we received from the UK among other pressing issues in spite of which the IAF mastered its usage leading it to shoot down the Sabres in the 1965 war - something unimaginable then , which the US equipped PAF with at the height of the Cold War earning it a sobriquet of Sabre Killer.

These lessons were to stand both IAF & HAL in good stead when they took up a similar extensive modification & upgradation program called the DARIN program lasting decades executed in stages ( DARIN I , II & III ) of another sub standard FA the Jaguar making it into the potent DPSA it's now become although it's well past its shelf life.

All these experiences were to brought to bear when they collaborated with the Sukhoi Design Bureau to extensively redesign the Su-30 MKI with European & Israeli avionics sensors & weapons before embarking on a massive , purely indigenous extensive & sweeping MLU which is unfolding at this very moment.

These extensive experiences also informed the Tejas programs . However given these painful experiences the IAF has since decided not to go in for a WiP FA which is where the F-35 is at the moment.

Our problems with the F-35 start from here & get progessively worse when you consider the various limitations & prohibitions the US imposes on its full envelope usage which even vital developmental partners & allies like the UK are seething about leave aside other allies.

To add to it we won't be able to integrate it into the AFNET & IACCS the cornerstone of our plans to counter PLAAF. Now all this has been revealed innumerable times over here which essentially any rational human being would've understood if not in the first then possibly in the second or third or fourth explanation.

All this is assuming you're engaging in good faith & not being the troll you usually are.

You try really hard to find a reason to hate it with ridiculous claims and fail miserably. You Indians need to concentrate in how deep trouble the IAF is and will be for the foreseeable future. Many fools made claims the Rafale was more than good enough to take on the J-20 so fooey on F-35 then 3 Rafales get shot down in air combat (one visual confirmation other two PAF claim) by an export J-10 flown by a failed third world country smacking the IAF and many in here with a dose of reality. Only a couple in here have double down on Rafale because they live in some alternate reality but the rest have woken up. If you think the F-35 can't penetrate PLA IADS and take them out or easily handle J-20s it says more about the mentality of the people (you) who think this way. If you really believe this then you have to admit that the IAF is totally outclassed by the PLAAF with IAF's all 4th gen fighter fleet in which its most advanced fighter got shot down in recent air battle against another 4th gen fighter.
Quite frankly I've my doubts if the J-20 would be able to penetrate the IACCS without being detected or tracked just as I've my doubts the F-35 would be able to do so to the Chinese IADS. You require all aspect stealth for that & by the time both the F-47 / F/A-XX & the J-36 / J-50 come aboard I suspect ISR using space based assets would be at another level altogether.

This cat & mouse game is eternal which is the reason no country likes to get into a war with a peer if they can help it. For then it becomes a game of attrition & incremental advantages. The outcome for both adversaries tend to be disastrous with the victor winning a Pyrrhic victory which is what the Sino US war will result in & which is where the Russo Ukraine war is headed , if it isn't already there .

In the context of a Sino Indian war while China holds all the aces if not most of it , there are extremely high chances that it could end up in a prolonged war of attrition which has the potential to jeopardize their plans for Taiwan. Needless to say that's exactly what The Great Satan wants . Hence the constant efforts to inveigle us into a defensive alliance by militarising the Quad during Irish Joe's adminstration.

However by trying to avoid the kind of trap Ukraine fell into will not insulate India from Chinese aggression for they're now in a hubristic state of mind , something our policy makers are disregarding. China WILL come for us , come what may & what they think will be an easy relatively short sharp high intensity campaign on the borders will boomerang on them .

I don't envy the position of our security establishment particularly our foreign ministry. They've been dealt a bad hand made worse by their own miscalculations regarding Chinese intentions thus impacting our defence spending apart from facing a series of sub optimal choices in the diplomatic arena.
 
We're waay ahead in AI-tech than what is out in the public domain. US of A can shove their AI, we don't need it. In fact, we don't need any American tech now. Even in ISTAR terms, the way ISRO has planned to launch satellites within next few years, we would become self-sufficient in this domain too.

It is basically the stealth engine technology that what India needs and Chinese don't even have that yet as well, they do have that FADEC which is required for stealth engine ( software side) but mechanically they are still lacking, India also lacks in that domain.
But chances of F35 coming to India are extremely low.
 
At least get the FOC for the damned Lightnings on schedule whatever it is, sweetie before shooting from the hip.

For a nation which pioneered airplanes & with the most sophisticated MIC in the world ever , dedicated to air warfare , the way you guys have run this program is both a disgrace & an embarrassment.


Sincere advice , do read up on the trials & travails of how the IAF took a sub standard FA like the Gnat & made it their own through various modifications to it in spite of losing 40-50 pilots in it due to a lot of design inefficiencies , mfg defects from the kits we received from the UK among other pressing issues in spite of which the IAF mastered its usage leading it to shoot down the Sabres in the 1965 war - something unimaginable then , which the US equipped PAF with at the height of the Cold War earning it a sobriquet of Sabre Killer.

These lessons were to stand both IAF & HAL in good stead when they took up a similar extensive modification & upgradation program called the DARIN program lasting decades executed in stages ( DARIN I , II & III ) of another sub standard FA the Jaguar making it into the potent DPSA it's now become although it's well past its shelf life.

All these experiences were to brought to bear when they collaborated with the Sukhoi Design Bureau to extensively redesign the Su-30 MKI with European & Israeli avionics sensors & weapons before embarking on a massive , purely indigenous extensive & sweeping MLU which is unfolding at this very moment.

These extensive experiences also informed the Tejas programs . However given these painful experiences the IAF has since decided not to go in for a WiP FA which is where the F-35 is at the moment.

Our problems with the F-35 start from here & get progessively worse when you consider the various limitations & prohibitions the US imposes on its full envelope usage which even vital developmental partners & allies like the UK are seething about leave aside other allies.

To add to it we won't be able to integrate it into the AFNET & IACCS the cornerstone of our plans to counter PLAAF. Now all this has been revealed innumerable times over here which essentially any rational human being would've understood if not in the first then possibly in the second or third or fourth explanation.

All this is assuming you're engaging in good faith & not being the troll you usually are.


Quite frankly I've my doubts if the J-20 would be able to penetrate the IACCS without being detected or tracked just as I've my doubts the F-35 would be able to do so to the Chinese IADS. You require all aspect stealth for that & by the time both the F-47 / F/A-XX & the J-36 / J-50 come aboard I suspect ISR using space based assets would be at another level altogether.

This cat & mouse game is eternal which is the reason no country likes to get into a war with a peer if they can help it. For then it becomes a game of attrition & incremental advantages. The outcome for both adversaries tend to be disastrous with the victor winning a Pyrrhic victory which is what the Sino US war will result in & which is where the Russo Ukraine war is headed , if it isn't already there .

In the context of a Sino Indian war while China holds all the aces if not most of it , there are extremely high chances that it could end up in a prolonged war of attrition which has the potential to jeopardize their plans for Taiwan. Needless to say that's exactly what The Great Satan wants . Hence the constant efforts to inveigle us into a defensive alliance by militarising the Quad during Irish Joe's adminstration.

However by trying to avoid the kind of trap Ukraine fell into will not insulate India from Chinese aggression for they're now in a hubristic state of mind , something our policy makers are disregarding. China WILL come for us , come what may & what they think will be an easy relatively short sharp high intensity campaign on the borders will boomerang on them .

I don't envy the position of our security establishment particularly our foreign ministry. They've been dealt a bad hand made worse by their own miscalculations regarding Chinese intentions thus impacting our defence spending apart from facing a series of sub optimal choices in the diplomatic arena.
When do you think China will launch its assault and will it be a standalone invasion for Arunachal or will it be a 2 front assault where they assault both Arunachal and Kashmir along with Pakistan? Will the Chinese also try to takeover Northeast?
It is basically the stealth engine technology that what India needs and Chinese don't even have that yet as well, they do have that FADEC which is required for stealth engine ( software side) but mechanically they are still lacking, India also lacks in that domain.
But chances of F35 coming to India are extremely low.
China will have working 5th gen engines by 2030 latest if they already don't have.
 
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Some F-35 fans like Ric Nunes, Corsair1963 on F-16.net and @Innominate, @Optimist etc. here sound like F-35 is be all, end all against all enemies. Here is "official" USAF saying this:

“The F-47 will be that next generation. It will be able to go places the F-35 can’t go. That’s part of what makes it sixth-gen, that step forward in signature management.”

Source: 412th Test Wing Commander Talks F-47, B-21 Testing, AI Agents, YF-23 and More

@randomradio, @Parthu

Kindly read the whole article. USAF is officially acknowledging that F-35 can't penetrate Chinese A2/AD bubble. F-47 is required to do that. Which means buying F-35 to take on PLAAF, when USAF themselves are not sure, is total waste of money for us. What say?

That's how American propaganda works. Hype things up until a replacement comes along and then provide a realistic picture while they hype up the next best thing and all those who are clueless will lap it up.

Anyway NGAD will become operational before the F-35.
No, no.......we need F-35, by far the best and most beautiful combat jet ever designed. Uncle Sam is our saviour. Screw Russia and France. All hail Uncle Sam 'cause the world is America and America is the world.

Right @Hydra, @Innominate, @Optimist, @jk007, @RASALGHUL 🤣🤣

@Parthu, do you still support F-35 acquisition post this behaviour by Trump?

I guess iPhone prices are gonna go up by 25% in the US.
 
@Parthu, do you still support F-35 acquisition post this behaviour by Trump?

Yes.

We wouldn't buy any F-35 to please Trump or to get cozy with the US - we would buy it if it's something we require given our threat environment. I think we do need it. That doesn't change because of tariffs on iPhones and it's funny if you think it should. Nobody is saying we need to get into an alliance with the US. They are an unreliable ally, as even long-term NATO partners in Europe are now finding out. What I'm proposing is merely a stop-gap import till such time that AMCA is operational.

I'd gladly accept a French or Russian 5th gen that offers the same capabilities but there are no options. There is no French 5th gen platform on offer, while the Russian one sucks. And it won't stop sucking till they actually make it stealthy with Su-57M, which they seem to be in no rush to do.

Trump flip-flops more than a Hawaiian slipper. This isn't the thread for commerce discussions but if the tariffs apply to all phone imports, which is what he says, then our relative cost advantage will still remain. Not to mention the China + 1 strategy will still be relevant so OEMs are unlikely to change anything.

Trump is obviously looking to strike some kind of deal so would make a new statement every day. We should let the trade deal negotiations figure this out. Nobody is gonna move a relatively low value-added business like phone assembly to the US for sake of a 25% tariff. They need something like a 300-400% tariff to make it economically viable to build in the US, for the US.
 
Yes.

We wouldn't buy any F-35 to please Trump or to get cozy with the US - we would buy it if it's something we require given our threat environment. I think we do need it. That doesn't change because of tariffs on iPhones and it's funny if you think it should. Nobody is saying we need to get into an alliance with the US. They are an unreliable ally, as even long-term NATO partners in Europe are now finding out. What I'm proposing is merely a stop-gap import till such time that AMCA is operational.

I'd gladly accept a French or Russian 5th gen that offers the same capabilities but there are no options. There is no French 5th gen platform on offer, while the Russian one sucks. And it won't stop sucking till they actually make it stealthy with Su-57M, which they seem to be in no rush to do.

Trump flip-flops more than a Hawaiian slipper. This isn't the thread for commerce discussions but if the tariffs apply to all phone imports, which is what he says, then our relative cost advantage will still remain. Not to mention the China + 1 strategy will still be relevant so OEMs are unlikely to change anything.

Trump is obviously looking to strike some kind of deal so would make a new statement every day. We should let the trade deal negotiations figure this out. Nobody is gonna move a relatively low value-added business like phone assembly to the US for sake of a 25% tariff. They need something like a 300-400% tariff to make it economically viable to build in the US, for the US.
An F-35 that can't be integrated into our system(AFNET), that is not ready for war(until Block-4 & engine ECU update), whose usage is determined by whims/interests of an unpredictable nation is nothing but white elephant for us.

Amyways, we shall see and the decision would be taken in this regard rather soon.
 
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I'd gladly accept a French or Russian 5th gen that offers the same capabilities but there are no options. There is no French 5th gen platform on offer, while the Russian one sucks. And it won't stop sucking till they actually make it stealthy with Su-57M, which they seem to be in no rush to do

In my opinion Russians do have a counter to stealth that's why they went on with Ukraine adventure. And US first needs to supply those GE404 engines, it has already delayed and one 1 is supplied by now after a two years delay.
 
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Yes.

We wouldn't buy any F-35 to please Trump or to get cozy with the US - we would buy it if it's something we require given our threat environment. I think we do need it. That doesn't change because of tariffs on iPhones and it's funny if you think it should. Nobody is saying we need to get into an alliance with the US. They are an unreliable ally, as even long-term NATO partners in Europe are now finding out. What I'm proposing is merely a stop-gap import till such time that AMCA is operational.

I'd gladly accept a French or Russian 5th gen that offers the same capabilities but there are no options. There is no French 5th gen platform on offer, while the Russian one sucks. And it won't stop sucking till they actually make it stealthy with Su-57M, which they seem to be in no rush to do.

Trump flip-flops more than a Hawaiian slipper. This isn't the thread for commerce discussions but if the tariffs apply to all phone imports, which is what he says, then our relative cost advantage will still remain. Not to mention the China + 1 strategy will still be relevant so OEMs are unlikely to change anything.

Trump is obviously looking to strike some kind of deal so would make a new statement every day. We should let the trade deal negotiations figure this out. Nobody is gonna move a relatively low value-added business like phone assembly to the US for sake of a 25% tariff. They need something like a 300-400% tariff to make it economically viable to build in the US, for the US.
wrt Terrorism as well US is pretty notorious , they are no different from pakistan. One day they are fighting alqaeda and next day they invite him to white house.

Trump cant squeeze china so he targets friendly countries, he knows very well china wont give any concessions. He rages against chino to put indirect pressure on other countries. Its not just on cost factor but also on liquidity front as well, exports from these cntries is the only way they earn dollars. By threatening to take away manufacturing from them he is killing their own export market.
 
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wrt Terrorism as well US is pretty notorious , they are no different from pakistan. One day they are fighting alqaeda and next day they invite him to white house.

Trump cant squeeze china so he targets friendly countries, he knows very well china wont give any concessions. He rages against chino to put indirect pressure on other countries. Its not just on cost factor but also on liquidity front as well, exports from these cntries is the only way they earn dollars. By threatening to take away manufacturing from them he is killing their own export market.

US will sell F35 to India and India will get Iran's oil from a US company in case US is able to negotiate with Iran and break them via Pakistan. Then every one in US can afford a 25% costly iPhone too.
 
In addition, the canards add lift by creating vortices on the upper surface, and this multiplies the lift by 2 or 3 depending on the configuration.
So you have raised your head again after the Rafale loss.

Now you want wing loading to mean more than it does for a delta wing. They carry weight, but are poor on sustained turn. They quickly wipe off air speed. As the previous nonsense about a Rafale killing a F-22.

Which even the French pilot ATE called out. Even the french pilot can't support the many lies of the French fanboys


1:50 Ate says the F-22 reverses its turn making it easy for the Rafale. which fires an IR , which cannot be claimed as it is guns only. (In actual fact, I think the F-22 was maneuvering to wash off speed to let the Rafale come within range for the dogfight.)
4:00 R calls Fox 2. (That really excited the fanboys) ..It's a practice shot, Ate said he called it out of habit and doesn't count as it is guns only.
5:00 Ate says he switches to guns.
6:00 Ate says about HMS and HOBS, The f-22 and Rafale doesn't ...(but just about everything else does.)

6:40 Ate says Rafale doesn't have the nose authority to follow the F-22. the f-22 can move.
9:00 Ate says the Rafale is at 80kts and below the 100kts minimum.
:mrgreen:
( the Rafale stalled out and was sitting there like a duck.)


11:40 Ate says the F-22 outperforms the Rafale and closes the door. ( Of course it does.)
12:20 Ate says: "Not enough energy for the Rafale, missing a few kts"..... (The Rafale can't regain energy quickly. The F-22 most certainly can and is one of the few planes that can.)

12:40 The F-22 stops the fight and retreats. The Rafale is below the stall speed at 80 kts ( again.
:mrgreen:
the thing is a slug.)

14:00 Rafale continues and picks up speed, has a good position on the F-22, the Rafale does not trigger. (The F-22 has already called the fight and is just flying straight.
:roll:
)
17:30 Ate, repeat that the F-22 called the fight at 12:40 and why the F-22 did not maneuver.
 
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