MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 29 12.3%

  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 186 79.1%

  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%

  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.6%

  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 4.3%

  • F-15EX

    Votes: 8 3.4%

  • Mig-35

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    235
Picdelamirand-oil said:

France to order 42 Dassault Rafale fighters in 2023​

The French Ministry of Armed Forces will order 42 Dassault Rafale fighters in 2023 to close the capacity gap created by the sale of 24 second-hand aircraft to Greece and Croatia.

In 2020, then-defense minister Florence Parly announced the objective to raise the number of Rafale fighters, the backbone of the French Air Force, from 102 to 129 jets by 2025. But the recent commercial success of the fighter jet disturbed this roadmap.

In January 2021, Greece signed an order for 18 Rafale F3R fighters for the Hellenic Air Force, in the context of increased territorial tensions with Turkey.

For the delivery to take place as early as possible, 12 of the fighters were deducted from the inventory of the French Air Force. A month later, an order for 12 Rafales was placed to replace the second-hand aircraft.

In May 2021, it was Croatia’s turn to buy 12 used French F3R Rafale fighter jets to modernize the country’s air force. However, this time, no new order was placed by France.

The setback was confirmed by the French Chief of the Defense Staff, General Thierry Burkhard, in a hearing with the French Parliament in October 2021.

“In 2025, the target was 129 Rafale, but once the [24] Rafales have been removed and those that will be purchased added, we will end up with 117,” Burkhard told the Defense and Armed Forces Commission.

And Dassault’s assembly lines should be busy for the foreseeable future as, in December 2021, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) signed a deal for 80 new Rafales, the largest order in the history of the aircraft. Additionally, Indonesia signed a tentative order for six Rafales in February 2022, though that contract is on hold due to funding issues.

Though the goal for 2025 will be missed, the Ministry of the Armed Forces does aim to replace the 12 Croatian Rafales. The 2023 budget presented to the French government on September 26, 2022, confirmed that 42 additional Rafales would be ordered, and delivered between 2027 and 2030.

“The consequences of the slight drop in the Rafale fleet over the next two years will concern less operational contracts than pilot training capacities: this year, 164 hours per fighter pilot compared to approximately 147 hours for the next two years,” Deputy Chief of Staff Frederic Parisot warned in a parliamentary hearing on July 20, 2022. “However, the situation remains acceptable, provided that the aircraft of the [future orders] are delivered on time.”

These 42 new aircraft will likely be delivered in the F4 standard, currently under development. The F4 Standard will focus on improving the connectivity of the Rafale with other systems through new satellite and intra-patrol links, communication servers, and software radio. Flight tests of the Rafale F4 started in April 2021 at the Dassault Aviation Flight Test Center in Istres, southeastern France.
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There goes any window of possibility for another g2g import for us.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
There goes any window of possibility for another g2g import for us.
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Trappier (CEO of Dassault and who was my trainee when I worked at Dassault) says the opposite.
He says that in 2020 the production was at 1 per month and that today it is at 3 per month, he considers that going from 1 to 3 in two years is a performance. He says he can go to 4 or 5 if necessary (he doesn't say if it's by opening a line in India), so if a signing were to take place now, it's likely that deliveries would start in 2026.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
Trappier (CEO of Dassault and who was my trainee when I worked at Dassault) says the opposite.
He says that in 2020 the production was at 1 per month and that today it is at 3 per month, he considers that going from 1 to 3 in two years is a performance. He says he can go to 4 or 5 if necessary (he doesn't say if it's by opening a line in India), so if a signing were to take place now, it's likely that deliveries would start in 2026.
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More than 30 a year is definitely remarkable, no doubt there.

I work on the assumption that the MMRCA is too politically risky for any government in India to execute in the way Su30 program was done. Therefore a smaller off the shelf order made real sense.

Cut down all the extra costs, and paperwork and simply import 2 or maybe 3 squadrons.

Anyways, Turkey is looking for alternatives too. What happens when they to place a Rafale order say by next year end ?
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
We have had MMRCA since 2000s and yet no orders. The MRCBF is fairly recent, what makes us think that it will be inked so soon ?
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While I don't believe it.
But been reading somewhere by the end of this year or next we ll select 26 Rafale / F18
 
Ankit Kumar said:
Can France stop Qatar from sending its Rafales to Turkey on a long deputations ? Like the NATO air policing missions in Iceland and Baltics ?
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We can't do it this way, what would India say if we tried to dictate the use of its Rafales? The Rafales are the property of Qatar, it decides what to do with them.
On the other hand, some equipment and data are classified by France, and Qatar has undertaken to protect them in the same way as France would.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
We can't do it this way, what would India say if we tried to dictate the use of its Rafales? The Rafales are the property of Qatar, it decides what to do with them.
On the other hand, some equipment and data are classified by France, and Qatar has undertaken to protect them in the same way as France would.
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There must be some end user agreements regarding transferring of assets to other nations , right ?
Sathya said:
While I don't believe it.
But been reading somewhere by the end of this year or next we ll select 26 Rafale / F18
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Its gonna take 3 years from the date of signing for the 1st airframe to roll out of the assembly line.

Focus on the date of signing. Choosing x or y is irrelevant. I don't see IN signing a 5 billion USD import deal anytime soon.
 

So, ASQR late 2022. RFP mid 2024. We can extrapolate the rest: Evaluations complete late 2026. Finalists chosen 2028. Selection 2030. BAFO 2032. Signature 2034?

That's the optimist timeline, anyway.
 
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A Person said:

So, ASQR late 2022. RFP mid 2024. We can extrapolate the rest: Evaluations complete late 2026. Finalists chosen 2028. Selection 2030. BAFO 2032. Signature 2034?

That's the optimist timeline, anyway.
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By the time French Navy starts to retire it's oldest Rafale M, IAF should get its 1st 😎😎😎
 
To stay at around 31 squadrons, as now, you would need more than 3 Rafale squadrons by 2028, which is only possible with a signature before 2024.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1576237300769751040

Jaguars to be retiring too.
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And Indian government is sleeping while spending 10s of billions on social welfare schemes to get votes!! Eventually it’s the Indian citizens to blame who want benefits/ money for vote even though national security is compromised. We had money to buy Rafale in 2016, but we don’t have it now to buy another 2-4 sqds ?? When it comes to defense, Modi had seriously neglected it while milking it for votes.
 
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Bali78 said:
And Indian government is sleeping while spending 10s of billions on social welfare schemes to get votes!! Eventually it’s the Indian citizens to blame who want benefits/ money for vote even though national security is compromised. We had money to buy Rafale in 2016, but we don’t have it now to buy another 2-4 sqds ?? When it comes to defense, Modi had seriously neglected it while milking it for votes.
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Nehru 2.0 as hellfire would say
Picdelamirand-oil said:
To stay at around 31 squadrons, as now, you would need more than 3 Rafale squadrons by 2028, which is only possible with a signature before 2024.
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Mig29UPG will also start going out from 2028. Pathetic state of affairs.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
To stay at around 31 squadrons, as now, you would need more than 3 Rafale squadrons by 2028, which is only possible with a signature before 2024.
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India should have gone for another 36 Rafale back at some point in 2019-2021, same standard as the initial batch. MMRCA2/MRFA just takes too long.
 
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