well said, I'm just tired of some of these fanboys exaggerating the capabilities of a limited 4th gen jet who is a generation behind other 5th gen jets while also underestimating them. Be the airframe, engines, sensory capabilities, stealth, weapons loadout, IR missile counter measures, tot, manuverability, combat range etc all of these of certain 5th gen jets are vastly superior to that of the rafale and we are supposed to believe that such a jet would magically be comparable to other more modern jets.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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177 most likely uses the same LPC from Izd 30, but Izd 30 uses a new HPC and turbine. That makes it an entirely different engine. They are not from the same generation.
For the Su-57, it's still an interim engine. The Russians are calling it Stage 1.5. You cannot stick this engine on a 5th gen jet and expect 5th gen performance. But it still meets the Russian Air Force's requirements for what they need out of the jet, like limited all-aspect stealth for example, old maintenance procedures, less service life etc. It doesn't meet the IAF's requirements, which even the Russians admit to. Their entire two-seat shtick is it's designed to meet the IAF's requirements.
FGFA came with Izd 30.
Izd 30 is pretty much in the same generation as AMCA's engine. The Russians have no problems in allowing us to import it, they just won't allow full ToT. Since you are proposing the Su-57 as an interim purchase, we won't need ToT anyway.
We need the higher thrust of the Izd 30 to make it make sense in India's hot and high conditions. The 177 is underpowered even for the Russians. The aircraft's been designed for a 2:1 TWR over empty, whereas we get only 1.7-1.8 with the new engine, even lower in Indian conditions. AMCA's TWR is also 2. With full fuel and 1.5T of internal payload, we get TWR of 1.2 for AMCA while on Su-57 we get 1.0 with 177 and 1.15 with Izd 30. I've assumed 18T empty and 12T fuel for Su-57, with full 18T thrust for Izd 30 vs 16T for 177, which are all idealistic.
The Su-57 as it stands today provides absolutely no advantage over the Rafale F4. Even Izd 30 only brings in some kinematic advantages, that's about it. Its avionics is still immature. And without MKIzation, the export-grade stuff will be trash. This is why it's not an option even as an interim measure. Su-57 will remain behind Rafale for at least another decade. New variants and improvements will eventually supercede Rafale while the Rafale begins to stagnate, by which point AMCA will become available. The two-seat is not an interim measure, it's an alternate capability pipeline. That's why it doesn't fit in anywhere today.
That's 'cause people are busy comparing paper capabilities of 5th gen jets that don't work against real world capabilities of the Rafale that have been demonstrated in combat.
F-22? Even the USAF admits is old and limited in capability.
F-35? Doesn't even come with a radar now. And full software release is 2033. Interim release by 2031. So it doesn't work anyway.
Su-57? Still not operational. Interim engines only. Limited to no avionics beyond initial capability release.
Rafale? Pretty much everything advertised works. Performance exceeds expectations, avionics exceed expectations, weapons exceed expectations. If you compare it to the F-35, it has better performance, better weapons, and the avionics actually work without confusing the pilot. Fully mature 5th gen capabilities. And yes, with active stealth.
As for the Su-57, the IAF has not even bothered to go to Russia to see it, and here people want a contract.
If Felon is to enter service in India, and the IAF does not choose a 6th gen JV within the next 5 years, then it will have to compete with other 6th gens in its future Su-60 or Su-65 variants for the 2040s. In the meantime, the Russians will get some MKIs they can upgrade. That's about all they can expect for now.
The EU is pro-India/China, but anti-Modi/Xi. They want their pets back in power, RaGa and the pro-Globalist factions. So they are looking at what they think will happen over the long term, ie, after Hinduism is defeated and their version of communism wins in India and China.
The Chinese have 3 anti-Xi factions who want to oust Xi. 2 civilians and a military general called Zhang Youxia.
Zhang began a Xi-loyalist cleanup of the military in 2023 and 2024 where he targeted generals who were loyal to Xi. Then the civilian factions headed by Li Ruihuan and Wen Jiabao put pressure on Xi directly using the economy as an excuse that allowed them to interfere in Xi's policies.
You can see their smug faces here, when Xi was forced to make some space for these two.
【图集】中共领导人与十多位前常委等出席国庆75周年招待会
庆祝中华人民共和国成立75周年国庆招待会星期一（9月30日）在北京举行，中共总书记习近平等中共领导人，以及温家宝等十多名已卸任的中共政治局前常委等参加活动。www.zaobao.com.sg
Zhang Youxia got purged a few months ago. He was essentially the number 2 guy after Xi in the CMC. So this purge finally cements Xi's power in China. Plus Zhang is a so-called princeling, meaning he is related to top communist leaders from the time of the revolution just like Xi. He has the "red genes" basically. And these guys are supposed to be untouchable.
Check out details of this major general called Mao Xinyu. He's Mao's grandson, but seems to be mentally unfit for the post. This goes to show how much they care about maintaining their pureblood status to maintain power. Only princelings can ascend to power in China.
And a guy with red genes, a princeling, was purged.
Even publicly famous individuals who were Globalist loyalists like Jack Ma were purged by Xi.
So with China slipping out of the hands of the Globalists, the Europeans and Democrats have no choice but to maintain friendly relations with India until Xi loses power, in the meantime hoping for Congress to win general elections in India.
There is no doubt that Globalists want Congress to be in power so that they can do their thing in India. Trump may be a dumbass personally but he is tearing apart the globalist nexus of the world.
I mean look at the reactions of Ursula, Hillary Clinton, Obama, Alex Soros on Hungary electing a new leader. Disgusting and Scary stuff!
There is no way Republicans win the next election. Tired of Democrat bullshit on democracy, NGO nexus. Trump screwed up royally in domestic policies of US. His administration is filled with idiots just like him.
F22 is a non-modular fighter jet. It cannot be upgraded the same way F35 can be.
USAF gonna make minor upgrades to F22 and keep it till 2040s. Intially they were planning to retire F22 by 2030s.
F35 is their best fighter jet and it can be upgraded in a major way.
I have been saying that 4.5 gen twin engine jets are going to be relevant and incredibly essential for a long time simply because the operational costs of 5th gen is too high even for USAF.
They have always been PoS.
Trump still has time to salvage things before the elections this year. And there's plenty of time to fix things before the presidential elections. 3 years is a lot of time in the US.
And the Democrats do not have a popular leader. Like Gavin Newsom and AOC? Both retarded. Vance and Rubio are better candidates.
Latinos and even Indian Americans will not vote for Republicans next election. POC vote is gone for Republicans. They have become too far right.
AOC criticises Israel in the public and says US should only provide defensive weapons to Israel. She bends the knee to Israel on the down low. But these AOC and Ilhan Omar ladies are incredibly Anti-India and Anti-Hindu. They will use their usual islamophobia rhetoria. Mamdani is another degenerate.
I think Newsom is fine. He doesn't have a fixed idealogy and is very malleable. I think he won't harm India.
Yeas, we don't need AMCA if we are inducting Rafale to tackle Pakistan ( even with j35 or worst with j20). But our industry need AMCA prog, and it will be our stepping stone for future aircraft programs.
5th gen jets are still half a decade away from certification and another half a decade from maturity. Similarly 6th gen jets are 2 decades away from achieving the same level of maturity as the Rafale today.
So yep, pretty much everybody will produce 4.5th gens until the end of 2040 and operate them into the 2070s. Even the Russians are planning on restarting the Mig-35 line.
Just looked it up.
Mig-35 faced export problems because it did not have AESA radars and RD-33MK engine is also less reliable from Indian Navy's Experience. it is used in MIG-29K. Terrible engine really tbh.
Looks like they are facing manpower shortages as well. Russia has succeeded in creating Sukhoi SJ100 commercial jet which will help them in fine tuning their military jet engines. But I don't think they are gonna succeed in bringing back MIG-35. Will see
What you see on the Internet is not what's happening on the ground. The H-1B issue is also temporary. It's only in the fringes today. Indians prefer the tax breaks and schooling improvements the Republicans support.
The same with Latinos, economy matters more than politics. Most of them area already living in stronghold states so have no real impact in elections. Texas will stay red and Cali will stay blue for now, for example. It's the swing states that matter most. Latinos voted for Trump in the so-called "Blue Wall" around the Great Lakes due to Trump's economy from his first term.
With kids going conservative, the Republicans are gaining an advantage here too.
All Trump has to do is provide sufficient tax breaks and keep the economy going, which is well within his capacity, to allow the Republicans to return.
Both Newsom and AOC are cut from the same cloth. AOC is more loudmouth but Newsom is more action-oriented, with both voicing the same rhetoric and taking the same action.
Their support bases are different though, AOC getting more young votes while Newsom attracting seniors. Harris sits in between. Overall, they are all bad, and I think they are weaker than the Republican candidates.
The new Mig-35 is a more modernized design compared to our MMRCA Mig-29OVT stock which was just a Mig-29M.
Global labor shortage for declining populations, but some sectors within Russia will survive it. They will probably have more supply chain problems than labor for the Mig-35.
The problem with this debate is that people use the word “generation” as if it were a scientific unit. It is not. What matters is not whether an aircraft is labeled 4th, 4.5th, or 5th generation, but how many years ahead or behind it is in each domain, because the gap is not the same everywhere. One country can be ahead in stealth shaping, another in electronic warfare, another in weapons integration, another in availability, another in combat persistence.
So let us look at it point by point.
Airframe and payload first.
Rafale weighs about 10 tons empty, has a 24.5-ton maximum takeoff weight, and can carry roughly 9.5 tons of external stores.
The F-35A weighs about 13.3 tons empty, has a 29.9-ton maximum takeoff weight, and in “beast mode” can carry about 8.2 tons. If it wants to preserve its stealth advantage, it must carry far less internally. That matters. A payload that exists only when you give up your key advantage is not the same thing as a payload you can use routinely.
Engines matter too.
Rafale has two engines with a combined mass of about 1.8 tons and thrust in the 100/150 kN class.
The F-35 has one engine of about 2.91 tons with thrust in the 125/191 kN class.
If you simply look at thrust relative to engine mass, the Rafale’s propulsion package is extremely efficient. That does not tell the whole story, of course, but it shows that the aircraft is not some “obsolete limited 4th gen jet.” It is a highly optimized design.
Sensors are another area where people confuse stealth with capability.
You can install excellent sensors on a non-stealth aircraft too. Rafale’s sensor suite is entirely respectable and keeps evolving: SPECTRA, regular software upgrades, future developments like RBE2 XG, and the improved OSF / Silent Killer concept. The idea that a non-stealth aircraft must therefore be sensor-inferior is simply wrong.
Stealth itself is not a religion.
This is the most ideological part of the debate. The French judgment was not that low observability is useless, but that extreme shaping-based stealth comes with a heavy price in ownership cost, maintenance burden, and availability. The French answer was to seek a similar operational result through a stronger emphasis on electronic warfare, deception, survivability, and tactical networking. You may disagree with that choice, but it is a choice, not an inability.
Infrared survivability and countermeasures also exist on the Rafale side. This is not some naked airplane relying only on flares and pilot luck.
Maneuverability is also not hypothetical. Rafale has demonstrated spectacular agility in public displays, including 11 G performance. At this point, its aerodynamic qualities are not in doubt.
Combat radius is another area where comparisons are often misleading.
Rafale is credited with about 1,056 km in a penetration/strike configuration and roughly 1,759 km in an air-to-air configuration.
The F-35A is often cited at about 1,239 km in strike and 1,410 km in air-to-air. But this “strike radius” is tied to a relatively light internal load, not to the aircraft carrying 8.2 tons in beast mode. In other words, people often compare the Rafale carrying a meaningful external strike load to an F-35 carrying a much smaller internal load (2.6 tons) in order to preserve stealth. If you compared the two at similar weapon loads, the picture would be much less flattering for the F-35. And in real operations, if you need more, you usually solve it with air-to-air refueling anyway.
So the real point is this:
The Rafale is not “magically comparable” to more modern aircraft. It is comparable because many of its advertised capabilities actually work in the real world, because its performance is mature, because its weapons are integrated and combat-proven, because its availability is high, and because it was designed as a balanced combat aircraft rather than a technological gamble.
A fighter should not be judged only by brochure categories or by the prestige of the “5th gen” label. It should be judged by what it can really deliver in combat:
payload, persistence, availability, weapons, survivability, ease of upgrade, operational maturity, and the ability to generate mass over time.
By that standard, the Rafale deserves a lot more respect than many fanboys are willing to give it.
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Prices have increased thanks to Trump's tariff war. I think Republicans are cooked. We will see.
All the investments promised by GCC ain't happening now. South Korea won't fulfill its investment promises thanks to the recent events like the THAAD transfer from Korea to GCC and Koreans directly negotiating with Iranians for their oil.
In my Opinion, Indians from India would be better off with Republicans ruling USA. But Indian Americans would be better off with Democrats ruling USA. Simply less racist rhetoria from the administration itself.
Surge operations lasting a month on Rafale vs 3-4 days on the F-35A.
Availability exceeding 90% vs 55% for F-35A.
High-end maintenance and operations are also 5th gen features.
In the end, this is where people stop at when it comes to their understanding of the Rafale relative to passive stealth designs.
They end up agreeing with everything else, but the airframe is not shiny enough.
If talks yield results, the prices will normalize quickly.
Oh, yeah, it was always DOA. Whatever investments were necessary have already been done. Anymore requires business case, which doesn't exist.
The problem with Democrat rule is their soft-on-crime policies which largely affect less violent folks like all our software nerds. Republican rule keeps people safe. This is going to play a bigger factor in race relations that Internet hate. Plus you have to go looking for Internet hate. Vivek Ramaswamy was an idiot for giving unnecessary advice.
I don't think it's gonna play much of a part when elections come around. The Trump admin has a plan around H-1B, and once implemented and executed, the Internet rhetoric will also die out.
Okay, but I'm not saying the same engine, I'm saying its a derivative of both the Izd. 30, and the AL-41F1. An engine is a part of what improves stealth characteristics, but having an interim "Stage 1.5" engine doesn't magically turn it into a non-stealth aircraft. If it sits in the same footprint, I fail to see how besides, maybe the lack of a sawtooth nozzle, the aircraft seriously gets affected by it being there (not talking about IR signatures, sound, and what not).
The last statement I absolutely have to disagree with you on, the 57 is far more capable in the A2A role than the Rafale, and pitting them against each other will almost certainly see the Rafale lose most of the time.
You simply cannot put them in the same class. This is not to say the Rafale is a bad airframe, quite the opposite imo. It is one of, if not the best non-stealth aircraft ever made and is capable of actually holding its own even in the modern battlefield thanks to its massive techonlogical advancements and sophistication. It would absolutely give the 57 a challenge, but to say that the Rafale is overwhelmingly superior to the point the 57 provides "absolutely no advantage", is also a gross exaggeration and I believe, quite incorrect.
Passive, geometric stealth is still incredibly important - if it wasn't and Active stealth was truly just as capable, the Gripen would've been superior to the F-35 according to SAAB and its marketing division. Yet, Canada found it to be pitiful in front of the F-35 in every single aspect during tests (Mission Performance the most) - the F-35 scored 57.1/60 points, whereas the Gripen was stuck at a total of 19.8/60. The Gripen's entire selling point was, similarly, Active stealth and EW. Sure, the Gripen is not as advanced as the Rafale, nor is it as capable of it, and in the Rafale's case, as a 4.5 gen we do absolutely need it may help it survive and maybe even do well against targets like the J-20 or Su-57, but not to the point nearly every air force looking at procuring a 5th Gen, chooses a 4.5 gen with "active" stealth over a true stealth airframe.
I agree the Rafale has probably been designed to survive and counter detection using EW, deception, and networked warfare, and with its sensor suite performing just as well, maybe even at the same level (or better) than a few 5th Gen's systems. All, no doubt, very important features and pivotal to modern combat, however, talking about how the "airframe is not shiny enough" is no real point when 5th Gens also do the exact same things, they just have passive stealth as well. To me it is not a matter of a fork in the road, it is that the 5th gens (like the F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-35 and J-20) all do the same things as what you've posited are the Rafale's advantages, but with additional passive stealth capabilities. It is not that they choose option A or B, it is that the Rafale hasn't ticked all the same boxes as them in the first place. It is an advanced airframe with 5th gen Sensors and electronic capabilities, but is limited by the lack of it being a non-stealth airframe.
The exceptions where I think the Rafale may be superior to the 57 are those of SPECTRA (this one the most), its situational awareness, and the aforementioned upgrades to the RBE2 (again, the sensors). These, imo, make it a competitive aircraft in the modern combat scene. But, on the other hand, the 57 already has many if not most of these features and more, like LDIRCM and L-Band detection arrays. The 57 also has an ECM Suite, the L-402 Himalayas, integrated into the MIRES (and information about them is in very short supply).
The Russians are also already more than willing to provide ToT for the 57. Its avionics are actually quite well made, and they consistently get upgrades, though I do agree we will probably not get the domestic equivalents, which is fine as long as they are upgraded shortly, which they will be. Besides the MKI-zation of the 57 is pretty much a guarantee, that, or substantial ISEs. Possibly we'll see an induction plan not unlike our 30MKIs, where we got Su-30Ks for a while, before we recieved our beloved Flanker-Hs. In this case, we'd recieve the 57M1E, before we get the 57MKI.
Won't it become too costly for the IAF to service the aircraft? The expertise required is not there and in case of any software issues be it the interface direct consultations will be required every now and then with the French due to very complicated integration process of the hardware to the aircraft?
What becomes more expensive is not routine servicing of the aircraft, but the ambition of what you want to integrate into it.
There are three different things that people often mix together:
- Aircraft maintenance
Keeping the airframe, engines, hydraulics, avionics LRUs, etc. serviceable is one problem. - Software support
Keeping mission systems, data buses, interfaces and releases stable is another problem. - Sovereign integration of Indian weapons / effectors / networks
That is a third problem, and it is the one that becomes more demanding with F5.
A Rafale F5 will indeed be a more complex platform than an F3R. If India wants to use it only as a fighter, French support remains manageable. But if India wants to exploit the aircraft as a combat-system hub — integrating Indian missiles, Indian datalinks, Indian drones, Indian EW payloads, possibly Indian battle-management functions — then of course the expertise requirement rises sharply.
That does not mean the aircraft becomes unserviceable for the IAF. It means India would need to build:
- a serious mission-systems integration team
- hardware-in-the-loop and software validation labs in India
- a permanent Indo-French integration and certification cell
- stronger domestic competence in avionics software, interface control, safety cases, EMI/EMC, and operational testing
And this applies to any advanced fighter. In fact, with some aircraft the dependence is even worse, because the user gets much less sovereignty over software and interfaces. Rafale is actually attractive precisely because France is more willing than the Americans to discuss controlled sovereignty, documentation, local industrial participation, and national weapons integration.
So I would answer your concern this way:
Yes, F5 makes the integration task more complex.
No, that does not automatically make the aircraft too costly to service.
What it does mean is that India must stop thinking only in terms of aircraft maintenance and start thinking in terms of combat-system sovereignty.
If India wants a “plug-and-play imported jet,” then ambition must stay limited.
If India wants a Rafale F5 that can sit at the center of an Indian kill web, then the cost is not only financial. The real cost is building the national technical depth to own that complexity.
That is not a weakness of the Rafale.
That is simply the price of trying to be sovereign at a higher level.
For any prolonged operation of the type for a country like India, I think integration of indigenous weapons, sensors, and equipment is absolutely necessary. We already do have some experience with integrating indigenous weapons onto foreign airframes, the 30MKI and MiG-29 being prime examples. However, the Rafale F5 will give us a different set of problems wherein weapon integration might not be the largest challenge, but rather, the successful integration of indigenous UAVs, Wingman Drones, and RPSVs will be.
India will also need to massively step up its cybersecurity, surveillance, and physical security around R&D areas and bases. The costs incurred in doing that may have been part of the reason India is dissuaded from procuring the F-35, as the security requirements for those are far higher than the Rafale's. Nevertheless, in order to truly be one of the world's strongest air forces, and to develop a suitable aerospace complex with advanced indigenisation we do need to maintain an exceptionally high standard, which will require substantial amounts of funding.
And again, as you've stated, the cost of running an advanced, indigenous defence ecosystem involves looking far beyond simply maintenance, MRO, and other such trivial matters. I think part of that is already actively happening, but just not quickly enough.