MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[redpanda]

Call down. Most of the details about this deal are not there in public domain. We still don't know all the conditions of this deal. That article by Dubey ji already has some conflicting info. So, let's wait for for information before jumping into any conclusion.

 

[Saaho]

Folks the jokes write themselves.

In 2001 IAF needed 126 Mirage 2000-5s.
India did not issue RFI till 2004-5. LOL! For 6.5 billion dollars.
Dassault closed the production lines.
IAF, GoI and 6 Vendors did entire song and dance of selecting jets till 2012. When rafale was finally chosen. LOL!
In 2014, Rafale deal was stuck because India wanted Dassault to give guarentee on jets made by HAL. LOL! All this Shit in India thing will be our end.
By 2015 or 2016 124 jet deal was scuttled and we got 36 jets for some 3 billion dollars or so?

Then IAF got its *censored* whooped... TWICE!

So now they paniced and bought remaining 114 Jets too... For 32 billion dollars. LOL! And now they get no tech transfer as well... Plus delivery in 2030s. DOUBLE LOL!


I mean who the *censored* raised that objection of "Gibs me guarentee for HAL made jets!!!!!" should be found, named, *censored*ed in public and then shot.

Call down. Most of the details about this deal are not there in public domain. We still don't know all the conditions of this deal. That article by Dubey ji already has some conflicting info. So, let's wait for for information before jumping into any conclusion.

We know all of it is a cope. Lets park all things aside.

We are BUYING jets needed in 2001 by 2030. YUP!

Countries develop brand new jets in mass in that time frame or less.

Look at South Korea.
Look at Taiwan.
Look anywhere in the world.

We are the only idiots who take quarter to third of a century to buy jets and get a worse deal to boot!

 

[redpanda]

Bruh.

There was no way any big deal was possible in the climate of 2009-2015. It was due to one after another scandal being unearthed. Then defense minister, A.K Anthony was known for maintaining image of Good boy. He was more than happy to delay deals of it meant political safety from allegations.

Imagine, if there's so much drama about this deal over price in a situation where we can afford the money but not gaps. Back then, it would be a death knell for careers of anyone who signed on such a deal.

And that's notwithstanding the technical, logistical, industrial aspects of the deal then vs now.

There is video of him happily saying in front of media that the MMRCA deal is now next government's responsibility. Absolute cinema moment of Indian defence that was. Obviously, he left a huge unresolved mess in front of the new government who had very little idea how to deal with it. That's how we reached here..

 

[redpanda]

Folks the jokes write themselves.

In 2001 IAF needed 126 Mirage 2000-5s.
India did not issue RFI till 2004-5. LOL! For 6.5 billion dollars.
Dassault closed the production lines.
IAF, GoI and 6 Vendors did entire song and dance of selecting jets till 2012. When rafale was finally chosen. LOL!
In 2014, Rafale deal was stuck because India wanted Dassault to give guarentee on jets made by HAL. LOL! All this Shit in India thing will be our end.
By 2015 or 2016 124 jet deal was scuttled and we got 36 jets for some 3 billion dollars or so?

Then IAF got its *censored* whooped... TWICE!

So now they paniced and bought remaining 114 Jets too... For 32 billion dollars. LOL! And now they get no tech transfer as well... Plus delivery in 2030s. DOUBLE LOL!


I mean who the *censored* raised that objection of "Gibs me guarentee for HAL made jets!!!!!" should be found, named, *censored*ed in public and then shot.

We know all of it is a cope. Lets park all things aside.

We are BUYING jets needed in 2001 by 2030. YUP!

Countries develop brand new jets in mass in that time frame or less.

Look at South Korea.
Look at Taiwan.
Look anywhere in the world.

We are the only idiots who take quarter to third of a century to buy jets and get a worse deal to boot!

Man can you normally write things please. We are going to have our Tejas in a good numbers by that point. And this deal is not eating away the funding of Tejas. Because the whole purpose of this deal is to full fill the gap that Tejas can't fill. Even with full on production of Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 there will be still shortage of aircraft thanks to retirement of legacy platform by 2030s. So you we need those 114 Rafales. Also payment for this deal will be stretched out over years, so that 32-35 billion $ is the least of the issue. Also my friend, 300 million $ per unit here includes not just the Jet but cost of support infrastructure, training, etc. as well. They are most likely going to set-up assemblies and other facilities too. If you have been reading the steno's articles you would read something about Government's demand for indigenisation consistently for this deal..with such a large deal there are certain leverage that the buyer holds & most likely we will use that..so I expect the French size to co-operate with us more this time than last time when the deal was just a small order of 36 aircrafts.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

No. India is an idiotic country. In 2009-12 they could have signed the deal but they wanted to do entire song and dance of selecting the jets. Airforce in 2002 wanted more Mirages. The Baboos took till 2004 or 5 to launch the stupid MMRCA competiton. And wound it up in 2012 by selecting Rafale. Then for god knows why they keep on insisting Guarentee on "Shit in India" Rafale jets by HAL. And then they sculted the entire deal. In 2012-14 we had MUCH better deal. It included

Source code
All 124 or so jets

And what not. Plus priority delivery.

Now we got the same deal. For much higher price (285 million USD per jet). And no source code. LOL!

We should line up entire south block and shoot them.

The problem with the Earlier Deal was HAL

Now that part has been taken care of by giving Huge Tejas Orders to HAL
-- 180 Mk1A along with MK 2 and AMCA

Now India wants to Integrate Our Own Missiles and Munitions with Rafale ,.that has been agreed to it in the 26 Rafale M deal

We will never Buy F 35 , that is for sure

And Between Rafale and SU 57 ,.IAF has preferred Rafale

It is like the Mirage 2000 Vs MiG 29 all over again

But this time we needed a A larger number and Domestic Manufacturing Capabilities

The payments will be staggered over 12 years from Now On ,.so that is Not the issue

And lastly there is Nothing better than Real Life Combat experience

So we can safely assume that this was the Decisive factor in the conclusion of our Decision Making process

 

[Saaho]

If approved, this would be India's largest-ever defence deal and would take the number of Rafale jets in the Indian military to 176, as

JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!

We are the only country in the world to operate 176 jets without having option to make any modification by ourself! Absolute Cinema!

If in 2010s we had signed this deal, we would not have gotten into this kind of mess.

I mean India is the only country in the world which will go to a *censored* house but will not be able to get laid after paying thrice the money..

The problem with the Earlier Deal was HAL

Now that part has been taken care of by giving Huge Tejas Orders to HAL
-- 180 Mk1A along with MK 2 and AMCA

Now India wants to Integrate Our Own Missiles and Munitions with Rafale ,.that has been agreed to it in the 26 Rafale M deal

We will never But F 35 , that is for sure

And Between Rafale and SU 57 ,.IAF has preferred Rafale

It is like the Mirage 2000 Vs MiG 29 all over again

But this time we needed a A larger number and Domestic Manufacturing Capabilities

The payments will be staggered over 12 years from Now On ,.so that is Not the issue

And lastly there is Nothing better than Real Life Combat experience

So we can safely assume that this was the Decisive factor in the conclusion of our Decision Making process

No. Lets speak it out clearly.

Problem was India. HAL is owned by GoI. HAL shits out Tejas at a world beating rate of 1 jet in 50 years. HAL can not stockpile criticial components. But GoI carries HAL like an albatross.

 

[Ginvincible]

Folks the jokes write themselves.

In 2001 IAF needed 126 Mirage 2000-5s.
India did not issue RFI till 2004-5. LOL! For 6.5 billion dollars.
Dassault closed the production lines.
IAF, GoI and 6 Vendors did entire song and dance of selecting jets till 2012. When rafale was finally chosen. LOL!
In 2014, Rafale deal was stuck because India wanted Dassault to give guarentee on jets made by HAL. LOL! All this Shit in India thing will be our end.
By 2015 or 2016 124 jet deal was scuttled and we got 36 jets for some 3 billion dollars or so?

Then IAF got its *censored* whooped... TWICE!

So now they paniced and bought remaining 114 Jets too... For 32 billion dollars. LOL! And now they get no tech transfer as well... Plus delivery in 2030s. DOUBLE LOL!


I mean who the *censored* raised that objection of "Gibs me guarentee for HAL made jets!!!!!" should be found, named, *censored*ed in public and then shot.

We know all of it is a cope. Lets park all things aside.

We are BUYING jets needed in 2001 by 2030. YUP!

I've said it before but my thoughts on the original MMRCA deal have really evolved over the years.

Back when it was ongoing I was really against the competition but now I understand that the architects for MMRCA1 were true patriots and incredibly smart. They had a deep understanding of how flawed procurement/development in India is as well as the threat environment India would be facing. They weren't corrupt import lobbyists; they were very forward looking.

Regardless it's better that we are decades late rather than never. If India is able to localize the lines for Rafales then ramping up production to offset losses in a war is still a benefit.

Countries develop brand new jets in mass in that time frame or less.

Look at South Korea.
Look at Taiwan.
Look anywhere in the world.

We are the only idiots who take quarter to third of a century to buy jets and get a worse deal to boot!

India is also not like any other country on Earth. India simply lacks the ability to meaningfully pursue such projects. I'm not saying that Indians are dumb or anything, it's the opposite. It's why there are Indian billionaires and scientists across the world. Indian society and governance are just too much of a hurdle to pursuing advanced projects domestically. You need that governing structure to maintain society tho, so you're stuck. I think that we should just accept this reality and focus on what can be done to help bolster the defense capabilities of India.

For example, make sure there are carve outs for supplying spares. Make India the Rafale/French fighter hub or Asia so that when FCAS comes (and it will come because LOL at expecting more than a TD for AMCA) it can be easily integrated. India's focus should be on producing successful designs quickly like with the SU-30s. We know that Rafale will suffer losses versus 5/6th gen PLAAF fleets so there has to be a focus on quickly backfilling the sqaudrons. Look at getting into the nEUROn UCAV program as a buddy system.

 

[Saaho]

Regardless it's better that we are decades late rather than never. If India is able to localize the lines for Rafales then ramping up production to offset losses in a war is still a benefit.

Dude, you fight with the gun that you have in your hand and not by RFI.

 

[Aniruddha]

No. Lets speak it out clearly.

Problem was India. HAL is owned by GoI. HAL shits out Tejas at a world beating rate of 1 jet in 50 years. HAL can not stockpile criticial components. But GoI carries HAL like an albatross.

Bruh what rock have you been living under, there are atleast 24 completed Tejas Mk1A as of October 2025 with a dozen other on the assembly line.
Maybe stop with your overgeneralized BS like a broken tape recorder and see a little.

 

[Ginvincible]

Dude, you fight with the gun that you have in your hand and not by RFI.

You will fighting bare handed if you do not go for deals like this. India does not have the ability to mass produce high quality jets by itself, and it is doubtful they will be able to over the next few decades.

 

[Saaho]

India is also not like any other country on Earth. India simply lacks the ability to meaningfully pursue such projects. I'm not saying that Indians are dumb or anything, it's the opposite. It's why there are Indian billionaires and scientists across the world. Indian society and governance are just too much of a hurdle to pursuing advanced projects domestically. You need that governing structure to maintain society tho, so you're stuck. I think that we should just accept this reality and focus on what can be done to help bolster the defense capabilities of India.

For example, make sure there are carve outs for supplying spares. Make India the Rafale/French fighter hub or Asia so that when FCAS comes (and it will come because LOL at expecting more than a TD for AMCA) it can be easily integrated. India's focus should be on producing successful designs quickly like with the SU-30s. We know that Rafale will suffer losses versus 5/6th gen PLAAF fleets so there has to be a focus on quickly backfilling the sqaudrons. Look at getting into the nEUROn UCAV program as a buddy system.

No there is a much simpler reason. We do not run serious military.

We run diplomacy mission in name of weapons procurement. (There was no reason to do competition, IAF knew what it needed). Entire song nd dance of MMRCA was for diplomatic reason. We did not need Grippen, we did not need Mig-35, we did not need F-16, we did not need F-18. We need mirage 2000-5 or its successor. But nooooo~ We will do song aand dance!)

We run social justice program in name of manufacturing (HAL has reservation).

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

If there is Any UPSIDE , it is the 120 KN Engine deal

There was a Simple Equation

Give A Deal for 114 Rafales to GET ENGINE TECHNOLOGY

 

[Saaho]

You will fighting bare handed if you do not go for deals like this. India does not have the ability to mass produce high quality jets by itself, and it is doubtful they will be able to over the next few decades.

We needed this deal done in 2008 itself. And it was possible. But GoI is not a serious government.

Bruh what rock have you been living under, there are atleast 24 completed Tejas Mk1A as of October 2025 with a dozen other on the assembly line.
Maybe stop with your overgeneralized BS like a broken tape recorder and see a little.

My friend, A program running since 90s has produced only 24 jets. Due to mismanagement mainly. 30 odd years or more and only 24 jets. Thats nothing to write home about.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

We needed this deal done in 2008 itself. And it was possible. But GoI is not a serious government.

Earlier We didn't have Money

Secondly There have been Huge Policy Changes in the Last 5 years which have allowed Increased Private Sector Participation in Defence Sector

Therefore TATA will be the Domestic Partner to DASSAULT

We were modernising Legacy Fleet of MiGs and Mirages and producing SU 30s

And Now after A Near Conflict with China in 2020 and a Real Conflict with Pakistan in 2025 , there can be No Financial
Obstacles to this deal

40 Billion Dollars in 12 years is NOTHING

We import GOLD worth 55 Billion USD , Every Year

 

[Saaho]

Here, we are clearly changing status: we are no longer dealing with rumors or even “weak signals,” but with a formal Indian administrative process. And in India, such processes are never initiated lightly. There are a few key points to note in this ANI article.

First, the fact that the Ministry of Defense is reviewing the proposal this week is decisive. In India, a SoC (Statement of Case) at this level is not put on the agenda unless the dossier has already been extensively pre-negotiated politically and technically. This type of meeting is less about “discovering” a project than about validating a trajectory before it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). In other words, the core of the compromise already exists.

Next, the structure of the agreement is very revealing.

• 114 aircraft in total,
• of which 12 to 18 will be delivered fly-away,
• the rest manufactured in India,
• with local content announced at 30%... then corrected further to >60%.

This apparent contradiction is not a journalistic error: it most likely reflects two levels of calculation. The 30% corresponds to the immediate content that can be contracted at the start (structures, assembly, subsystems), while the >60% includes ramp-up, heavy MRO, parts manufacturing, tooling, and above all the duration of the program. This is exactly the Indian logic: accept a lower entry point, provided that the industrial trajectory is locked in.

The issue of integrating Indian weapons is also crucial. India is not asking for the source codes (and explicitly accepts that they remain French), but is demanding the necessary openness to integrate its own systems. This is a red line that very few Western aircraft have crossed, and it confirms what you said earlier: the Rafale is being treated as an Indian platform to be customized, not as a fixed product.
The passage on the implicit rejection of the F-35 and Su-57 is also very telling. This is not an ideological stance, it is a cold calculation:

the F-35 is too politically and logistically restrictive, the Su-57 is technologically immature and industrially risky, while the Rafale is combat-proven, mastered, and above all, integrable into a strategy of gradual sovereignty.

The mention of Operation Sindoor and SPECTRA's performance against the PL-15 is also significant. The Indians never cite operational RETEX in a document of this level without reason. It is an internal message: this is not a prestige purchase, it is an operational decision.
Finally, the MRO M88 component in Hyderabad is perhaps the most strategic point of all. Local engine maintenance capability is not an offset, it is a sovereign air power generation capability. From this point on, we are no longer talking about a customer, but a very long-term partner.

In summary:

• the dossier has entered the irreversible phase of the Indian process,
• the structure of the agreement corresponds exactly to the rejection a year ago (too little work for India),
• Indian doctrinal requirements (national weapons, local MCO, upgrade) are integrated,
• and the political timetable (February, Macron's visit) is becoming perfectly credible.

If everything goes as usual in India, the question is no longer “if” the contract will be signed, but “how it will be sequenced” (framework agreement, tranches, options). And at this stage, we are already well beyond a simple purchase of 114 aircraft: we are facing the establishment of an Indo-French air pillar for several decades.

I mean.... all I hear is this:

1. We will buy 176 Rafales in all. But either we are not capable of or France does not want us to integrate out own weapon in this platform by ourself.
2. We are getting the jets needed in 2001 in 2030s or so.

I salute GoI and their legendry negotiation style for bungling up procurement so bad.

Tomorrow, we purchase a missile from Israel, like Sky Sting or whatever. How the hell we will integrate it with Rafale? I doubt it will be possible.

PS : No shade on Rafale itself. It has been my favourite 4+ gen jet since mid 2000s.

Earlier We didn't have Money

We always had money. Its a lie that we did not have money. Am I to believe that Indian economy could not afford 10 billion in 2008 or 09 or 10?

Remember, MMRCA was scuttled on negotiation terms and not money.

 

[Ginvincible]

No there is a much simpler reason. We do not run serious military.

We run diplomacy mission in name of weapons procurement. (There was no reason to do competition, IAF knew what it needed). Entire song nd dance of MMRCA was for diplomatic reason. We did not need Grippen, we did not need Mig-35, we did not need F-16, we did not need F-18. We need mirage 2000-5 or its successor. But nooooo~ We will do song aand dance!)

We run social justice program in name of manufacturing (HAL has reservation).

I think Indian military can be serious when they need to be, but they will for sure lose the next war due to the general failure to modernize and the IAF procurement paralysis of the past 30 years. Army does induct drones and firearms when they are able. Navy also inducts new platforms at a reasonable pace. I think when the dust settles, the remaining Indian state can focus on having a small professional army. I do think the future of French/India arms production and development is bright.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Tomorrow, we purchase a missile from Israel, like Sky Sting or whatever. How the hell we will integrate it with Rafale? I doubt it will be possible.

We can integrate our own weapons like Astra AAM and Rudram Air to Ground Missiles

Israeli.weapons are an interim measure till our Air to Ground Munitions are Ready for operational use

 

[Saaho]

Its insane if we aren't getting source code, and stupid if the content is nere 30%.
Op sindoor is a success only because we able to mate MKI & Jaguar with the eeaoon of our choice. I don't think frenc will allow lora or rampage on Rafale.

I mean, I share your despair but that what is real. IAF, South Block and GoI are not serious bodies. Its Absolute Cinema!

Think about it. France will have details of our data links with missiles and we will not have any details of their Fire Control Radar. After buying 176 Rafales in all.

Israeli.weapons are an interim measure till our Air to Ground Munitions are Ready for operational use

Dude. France will operate about 234-285 rafale jets in all. India about 176 if this deal goes through. Beyond france, we will be largest foreign operator of Rafale. If we can not integrate the weapons we need at will... it is massive shame.

Compare this with Su30MKI. We can integrate any weapon we want by ourself at our leisure.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I mean, I share your despair but that what is real. IAF, South Block and GoI are not serious bodies. Its Absolute Cinema!

Think about it. France will have details of our data links with missiles and we will not have any details of their Fire Control Radar. After buying 176 Rafales in all.

We had only 3 choices

Rafale ,. SU 57 and
F 35

F 35 was the Most Unlikely for Many Reasons .

And How long we should wait for AMCA and Tejas Mk 2 to enter operational service in Big Numbers

SU 57 won't get us Engine Technology

Also We should remember that SU 30 upgrades and S 400 orders are still pending

Rafale infrastructure is already completely ready and available

 

[Ginvincible]

ultimately it is a good deal. The Rafale is combat proven and it can carry modern munitions. It is the only way to reliably challenge the more advanced/numerous opponents surrounding India's skies. IAF needs to replenish it's squadron strength and cannot do it by relying on Tejas alone. We don't even know if we'll get all Tejas delivered in the next 10-15 years!

People wanting full domestic are naive, India is not at the stage where it can domestically mass produce jets on the level of Rafale. Investing in France is good for the long term too since eventually India will have to move up the tech tree. Use this deal to talk about submarines, FCAS, next gen carrier, etc.