MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Ashwin]

Rafale deal to be inked in 2026, final assembly line in Nagpur, Indian firms to be roped in

The proposed project costing about Rs 3.25 lakh crore will entail procurement of 18 aircraft in fly away condition & the rest made in India with up to 60% indigenous content.

New Delhi: India and France have agreed on the modalities for the procurement of the 114 Rafale F4* fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), official formalities for which will be completed by end of 2026 or early 2027, ThePrint has learnt.

The proposed project, which will cost about Rs 3.25 lakh crore, would entail procurement of 18 aircraft in fly away condition and the rest manufactured in India with up to 60 percent indigenous content, achieved in phases just like the C-295 transport aircraft. The Tejas aircraft currently has an indigenous content of 62 percent.

The contract will also have the option to upgrade the Indian Rafale to F5 version as and when it comes. Existing Rafale aircraft with the IAF will also be upgraded to the F4 version as part of the contract.

The F4 standard focuses on improving the connectivity of the Rafale through new satellite and intra-flight links, communications servers, and software radios, improving its effectiveness in net-centric combat and paving the way for the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The Rafale in service with India is the F3-R plus version, all of which will be upgraded to the latest standard, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint. The IAF’s Rafale has 13 India-specific enhancements, a notch above the F3 variants.

The sources said that final costing and other details will be worked out formally once the project gets the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) and subsequent formalities are completed. They added that there was a recent high-ranking meeting between Indian and French sides where the broad contours of the deal were finalised.

If the deal is signed early 2027, the delivery of the first 18 in fly away condition will start from 2030 onwards.

The sources said that an announcement on intention to procure more Rafale could be made during the visit of French President Emanuel Macron next month, just like it was done during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in 2015. The contract was only signed late 2016 after negotiations and formalities were completed.

They said that in the current case, contract signing will be sped up since the broad contours have already been agreed to and formal processes have to be completed.

It is learnt that the final assembly line for the Rafales will come up at the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) Nagpur facility, which is now a subsidiary of the French aviation major Dassault Aviation that manufactures the fighter.

In September last year, Dassault Aviation acquired the majority stake in the joint venture. It is learnt that Anil Ambani-led Reliance, could sell its minority stake to another Indian company following which DRAL would be renamed if the plans move ahead.

Multiple Indian companies like TATA, Mahindra, Dynamatic Technologies Limited along with over 3 dozen other firms are expected to be part of the Rafale project. TATA has already been contracted for manufacturing the fuselage for the Rafale which will go into foreign orders at this moment.

It is also learnt that the Final Assembly Line (FAL) will eventually cater to Rafale’s global demand and will act as the second manufacturing hub of the French aviation major.

The sources said that the overall Indian numbers could go up with time. Dassault Aviation has a capacity to produce 25 aircraft per year, which is being planned to increase to 50. The Indian FAL will have a capacity of 24 aircraft per year.

As of 31 December, 2025, Dassault Aviation has a backlog of 220 Rafale (175 Export, 45 France) in comparison to 220 Rafale (164 Export, 56 France) in the same date previous year.

The sources said that while Dassault is manufacturing the Rafale F4 version, India is going with certain upgrades to the Spectra electronic warfare system and the version will be known as F4 Star or F4*.

ThePrint was the first to report in April last year that the Indian government has decided to go in for 114 Rafale for the IAF and formal process will start later that year.

In the second half of 2025, the IAF formally moved a proposal to acquire the Rafale following which discussions happened at the Defence Ministry level and at government-to-government level.

ThePrint reported in September that the Rafale contract is being planned to be signed in 2026. At that time, the cost was estimated at about Rs 2 lakh crore. This figure now stands at Rs 3.25 lakh crore.

Dassault Aviation is already setting up a Maintenance Repair and Overhaul Facility (MRO) in India, as reported, and have committed to making India as a Rafale manufacturing and maintenance hub besides the facilities in France.

India will emerge as the largest operators of the Rafale aircraft outside of France. In 2016, the country bought 36 Rafale and ordered 26 Rafale Marine aircraft for the Navy last year

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2011337641988587641

 

[Fatalis]

Rafale deal to be inked in 2026, final assembly line in Nagpur, Indian firms to be roped in

The proposed project costing about Rs 3.25 lakh crore will entail procurement of 18 aircraft in fly away condition & the rest made in India with up to 60% indigenous content.

New Delhi: India and France have agreed on the modalities for the procurement of the 114 Rafale F4* fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), official formalities for which will be completed by end of 2026 or early 2027, ThePrint has learnt.

The proposed project, which will cost about Rs 3.25 lakh crore, would entail procurement of 18 aircraft in fly away condition and the rest manufactured in India with up to 60 percent indigenous content, achieved in phases just like the C-295 transport aircraft. The Tejas aircraft currently has an indigenous content of 62 percent.

The contract will also have the option to upgrade the Indian Rafale to F5 version as and when it comes. Existing Rafale aircraft with the IAF will also be upgraded to the F4 version as part of the contract.

The F4 standard focuses on improving the connectivity of the Rafale through new satellite and intra-flight links, communications servers, and software radios, improving its effectiveness in net-centric combat and paving the way for the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The Rafale in service with India is the F3-R plus version, all of which will be upgraded to the latest standard, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint. The IAF’s Rafale has 13 India-specific enhancements, a notch above the F3 variants.

The sources said that final costing and other details will be worked out formally once the project gets the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) and subsequent formalities are completed. They added that there was a recent high-ranking meeting between Indian and French sides where the broad contours of the deal were finalised.

If the deal is signed early 2027, the delivery of the first 18 in fly away condition will start from 2030 onwards.

The sources said that an announcement on intention to procure more Rafale could be made during the visit of French President Emanuel Macron next month, just like it was done during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in 2015. The contract was only signed late 2016 after negotiations and formalities were completed.

They said that in the current case, contract signing will be sped up since the broad contours have already been agreed to and formal processes have to be completed.

It is learnt that the final assembly line for the Rafales will come up at the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) Nagpur facility, which is now a subsidiary of the French aviation major Dassault Aviation that manufactures the fighter.

In September last year, Dassault Aviation acquired the majority stake in the joint venture. It is learnt that Anil Ambani-led Reliance, could sell its minority stake to another Indian company following which DRAL would be renamed if the plans move ahead.

Multiple Indian companies like TATA, Mahindra, Dynamatic Technologies Limited along with over 3 dozen other firms are expected to be part of the Rafale project. TATA has already been contracted for manufacturing the fuselage for the Rafale which will go into foreign orders at this moment.

It is also learnt that the Final Assembly Line (FAL) will eventually cater to Rafale’s global demand and will act as the second manufacturing hub of the French aviation major.

The sources said that the overall Indian numbers could go up with time. Dassault Aviation has a capacity to produce 25 aircraft per year, which is being planned to increase to 50. The Indian FAL will have a capacity of 24 aircraft per year.

As of 31 December, 2025, Dassault Aviation has a backlog of 220 Rafale (175 Export, 45 France) in comparison to 220 Rafale (164 Export, 56 France) in the same date previous year.

The sources said that while Dassault is manufacturing the Rafale F4 version, India is going with certain upgrades to the Spectra electronic warfare system and the version will be known as F4 Star or F4*.

ThePrint was the first to report in April last year that the Indian government has decided to go in for 114 Rafale for the IAF and formal process will start later that year.

In the second half of 2025, the IAF formally moved a proposal to acquire the Rafale following which discussions happened at the Defence Ministry level and at government-to-government level.

ThePrint reported in September that the Rafale contract is being planned to be signed in 2026. At that time, the cost was estimated at about Rs 2 lakh crore. This figure now stands at Rs 3.25 lakh crore.

Dassault Aviation is already setting up a Maintenance Repair and Overhaul Facility (MRO) in India, as reported, and have committed to making India as a Rafale manufacturing and maintenance hub besides the facilities in France.

India will emerge as the largest operators of the Rafale aircraft outside of France. In 2016, the country bought 36 Rafale and ordered 26 Rafale Marine aircraft for the Navy last year

If possible please highlight the important points as well.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

This article from ThePrint is interesting because it confirms one essential point: this is not a publicity stunt in February, but a complex, structured process that has already been finalised in broad terms. Above all, it confirms that India no longer treats the Rafale as a one-off purchase, but as a fully-fledged industrial and capability programme.

The 18 fly-away + the rest assembled in India model, with a gradual increase to 60% local content, is exactly in line with the C-295. It is not improvised, it is not ideological, it has become the Indian norm for structuring platforms. And the fact that the Nagpur FAL is set to become a second global Rafale hub, and not just an ‘Indian’ line, is a very strong signal: we are talking about strategic industrial redundancy, not just a simple offset.

The timetable is also consistent. Signing in 2026/early 2027, first fly-away deliveries around 2030, then ramp-up locally. It's a long process, but it's exactly what's needed to absorb the industrial complexity, train the teams, qualify the supply chain and avoid the pitfalls we've seen elsewhere. Above all, it allows Dassault to meet its export commitments without sacrificing French production, which is far from insignificant.

Another key point is that the F5 option is explicitly included. This means that India is already looking beyond the F4*, with a view to continuous evolution rather than stagnation. This is where we find the DNA of the Rafale: a living, evolving platform that each customer can grow according to their own doctrine. The IAF does not want ‘the latest aircraft in the brochure’; it wants an aircraft that it can adapt over 30 or 40 years.

In terms of cost, we can clearly see the shift: we have gone from 2 lakh crore to 3.25. This is not a sudden explosion, it is simply that the real scope is gradually becoming apparent. India is counting everything: factories, MRO, training, stocks, industrial skills development. On the French side, we continue to think in terms of ‘aircraft + support’. Two different interpretations of the same programme, nothing more.

Finally, the fact that Dassault now has control over DRAL and that Reliance is quietly exiting the deal is anything but insignificant. It secures industrial execution, reassures both Paris and New Delhi, and removes a major political vulnerability. Here again, it is a thorough clean-up before the final phase.

In short, this paper does not say ‘the contract is signed’, but it says something much more important: the framework is set, the trajectory has been chosen, and the Rafale is now treated by India as a pillar of sovereignty, not as an imported aircraft. From there, the debate over ‘too expensive/not enough offsets’ becomes secondary. This is no longer a purchase, it is a strategic shift.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

At this price, the orange man will personally deliver F-35 to you,

36$ billion dollars for 114 jets
Comes with 30% IC
Only the later variants comes with F5 variants,

36$ billion for 4.5th gen jets,
And nobody has issues with it,
How are they going to fund AMCA, MK2, cats warrior, Ghatak

In reality, there is very little contradiction between the price of the Rafale as seen by France (18.9 billion) :

Post in thread 'MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions'

Jan 14, 2026

Rafale F5: details of France's future fighter jet

Published on 13 January 2026 at 11:33 a.m. • Written by Paul Crauchet

The Rafale F5, the new version of the French fighter jet, promises to be a major advance by 2035. Here are the main innovations.

The Rafale is about to reach a milestone. By 2030, the French army expects the arrival of the F5 standard, presented as a technological breakthrough. Sébastien Lecornu, Minister of the Armed Forces in 2025, spoke of a revolution comparable to the transition from the Mirage 2000-N to the first Rafale. The objective is clear...

• Picdelamirand-oil

and that seen by India, but we are not talking about the same thing at all. In France, we are talking about an aircraft contract, while in India we are talking about a complete capability transformation programme.

On the French side, the reasoning is fairly standard: we look at the strict scope of the intergovernmental contract. Aircraft, engines, systems, initial training, support, possibly a share of MCO. The rest – air bases, hardened hangars, runways, security, local industrial skills development, force organisation – is considered to be part of India's national effort, and therefore outside the ‘price of the Rafale’. This is the usual logic of French exports, and it is consistent.

On the Indian side, it is the opposite. Everything that the arrival of the Rafale triggers is included in the calculation. New infrastructure, assembly lines, engine MRO, strategic stocks, integration of national weapons, massive personnel training, and even the political cost of Make in India. For New Delhi, the Rafale is not an off-the-shelf aircraft, it is a lever to restructure part of the IAF and the military aeronautics industry. Inevitably, the final figure is completely different.

There is also a very strong internal political dimension. In India, anything related to defence is immediately contested, exploited and dissected. After the 36 Rafale affair, the government prefers to announce a high figure from the outset: ‘yes, it's expensive, but it's strategic’, rather than being accused later of hiding costs. In France, we do exactly the opposite: we announce the strict scope, with the rest being implicitly assumed by the customer.

Finally, there is one point that is often overlooked: India is not just paying for aircraft, it is paying for strategic freedom. Not being dependent on the United States, Russia or China comes at a price. New Delhi accepts this price, while loudly contesting it in public debate — this is almost a constant in India.

So when the Indians talk about very high amounts, they are talking about a Rafale ecosystem spanning several decades. When the French talk about more modest amounts, they are talking about an aircraft contract. Both interpretations are correct, they just describe different things.

 

[zinswinsin]

Congrats to the French.

 

[CATS @hunter]

In France, we are talking about an aircraft contract, while in India we are talking about a complete capability transformation programme.

And the reason for this conversation because, French doesn't face an immediate threat while IAF does,
The rafale Will be against J20, J-35, J-16, J-10C, so the descision has to be strategic, you need long term solutions, don't have to heavily depend on other's, in order to do that you need to create supply chains, greater indigenous contents, assembly lines, engine MRO, training personal, integration of indigenous weapons, you can't sustain the war without such infrastructure, the threat levels are very different for the French airforce and the Indian Air force, that's why you can see why India has is pushing even greater IC in su30mki and we have been able to push upgrade projects like super sukhoi, with the su30mki we don't have to majorly depend upon the Russians everytime,
To negate the threat of pl15 & PL17, we already have started trials of Astra mk2, and Astra mk3 on su30mki, but we can't expect such things on rafale,

Those rafales are going to face network centric 5th gen & 6th gen platforms armed with PL17, you have to utilise everything which you have at your assets, there leaves zero chances for an error, as the threat levels are different for both the air forces, untill MBDA or French doesn't come up with long range BVR, meteor Will be the final stay, but that's not the case here the Pl17 holds advantage over meteor, but we do have something to counter it which is Astra mk3, if we aren't going to integrate such large number of aircrafts with our primary Long range BVR, we are at great disadvantage, similar ARM roles rafales uses AGM -88 HARM which is great but rudram 2 & 3 are even greater which gives you 350 & 550km range, which is necessary for us to integrate those missiles on rafales,

As you said there's two different talks about the rafale deals, as the threat levels are completely different,

Rafale would likely be the first nato jet which gonna be opposite against a 5th gen Chinese jets in real combat not F-35,
So when we talk about the aircraft deal, you have to factor everything, we need these jets to be well armed, flexible, cost effective munitions, spare parts, engine availability, a whole ecosystem to support this, and we are going to operate 176 of this jets, the second after france to operate such fleet we definitely need the ecosystem to maintain them, can't do without having greater indigenous contents, or access to mission computer,

 

[Ashwin]

In reality, there is very little contradiction between the price of the Rafale as seen by France (18.9 billion) :

Post in thread 'MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions'

Jan 14, 2026

Rafale F5: details of France's future fighter jet

Published on 13 January 2026 at 11:33 a.m. • Written by Paul Crauchet

The Rafale F5, the new version of the French fighter jet, promises to be a major advance by 2035. Here are the main innovations.

The Rafale is about to reach a milestone. By 2030, the French army expects the arrival of the F5 standard, presented as a technological breakthrough. Sébastien Lecornu, Minister of the Armed Forces in 2025, spoke of a revolution comparable to the transition from the Mirage 2000-N to the first Rafale. The objective is clear...

• Picdelamirand-oil

and that seen by India, but we are not talking about the same thing at all. In France, we are talking about an aircraft contract, while in India we are talking about a complete capability transformation programme.

On the French side, the reasoning is fairly standard: we look at the strict scope of the intergovernmental contract. Aircraft, engines, systems, initial training, support, possibly a share of MCO. The rest – air bases, hardened hangars, runways, security, local industrial skills development, force organisation – is considered to be part of India's national effort, and therefore outside the ‘price of the Rafale’. This is the usual logic of French exports, and it is consistent.

On the Indian side, it is the opposite. Everything that the arrival of the Rafale triggers is included in the calculation. New infrastructure, assembly lines, engine MRO, strategic stocks, integration of national weapons, massive personnel training, and even the political cost of Make in India. For New Delhi, the Rafale is not an off-the-shelf aircraft, it is a lever to restructure part of the IAF and the military aeronautics industry. Inevitably, the final figure is completely different.

There is also a very strong internal political dimension. In India, anything related to defence is immediately contested, exploited and dissected. After the 36 Rafale affair, the government prefers to announce a high figure from the outset: ‘yes, it's expensive, but it's strategic’, rather than being accused later of hiding costs. In France, we do exactly the opposite: we announce the strict scope, with the rest being implicitly assumed by the customer.

Finally, there is one point that is often overlooked: India is not just paying for aircraft, it is paying for strategic freedom. Not being dependent on the United States, Russia or China comes at a price. New Delhi accepts this price, while loudly contesting it in public debate — this is almost a constant in India.

So when the Indians talk about very high amounts, they are talking about a Rafale ecosystem spanning several decades. When the French talk about more modest amounts, they are talking about an aircraft contract. Both interpretations are correct, they just describe different things.

This was not the tone when the original deal was signed. It was supposed to be a one-time expensive infrastructure and custom upgrade investment. Then it was supposed to cost less than $150 million per aircraft with local production.

Dont tell me the $10 billion addition to the cost is because of some strict clause asking to localise. This contract will be a G2G without any stings attached like that of a tender based contract. This is more favorable for Dassault in every way. You can choose a partner and integrate into the supply chain as you wish. This means that every future Rafale will be cheaper even for export. This feels more like we are funding your 6th gen FCAS program.

In my opinion, we should not insist on 60% local content. It should not be given as a justification for such exorbitant pricing. How are you going to enforce it anyway? Ask for reasonable 30% localisation with MRO for all major parts. Thats good enough. We should focus more on developing indigenous fighters for the aerospace ecosystem instead of paying exorbitant amounts to the Europeans and outsource it.

 

[screambowl]

You already said why we cannot put our radar inside Rafale.

Yes you can't unless until you change flight computer

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2011422485116604760

@Picdelamirand-oil can you confirm this

 

[Bon Plan]

Rafale deal to be inked in 2026, final assembly line in Nagpur, Indian firms to be roped in

The proposed project costing about Rs 3.25 lakh crore will entail procurement of 18 aircraft in fly away condition & the rest made in India with up to 60% indigenous content.

New Delhi: India and France have agreed on the modalities for the procurement of the 114 Rafale F4* fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), official formalities for which will be completed by end of 2026 or early 2027, ThePrint has learnt.

The proposed project, which will cost about Rs 3.25 lakh crore, would entail procurement of 18 aircraft in fly away condition and the rest manufactured in India with up to 60 percent indigenous content, achieved in phases just like the C-295 transport aircraft. The Tejas aircraft currently has an indigenous content of 62 percent.

The contract will also have the option to upgrade the Indian Rafale to F5 version as and when it comes. Existing Rafale aircraft with the IAF will also be upgraded to the F4 version as part of the contract.

The F4 standard focuses on improving the connectivity of the Rafale through new satellite and intra-flight links, communications servers, and software radios, improving its effectiveness in net-centric combat and paving the way for the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

The Rafale in service with India is the F3-R plus version, all of which will be upgraded to the latest standard, sources in the defence establishment told ThePrint. The IAF’s Rafale has 13 India-specific enhancements, a notch above the F3 variants.

The sources said that final costing and other details will be worked out formally once the project gets the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) and subsequent formalities are completed. They added that there was a recent high-ranking meeting between Indian and French sides where the broad contours of the deal were finalised.

If the deal is signed early 2027, the delivery of the first 18 in fly away condition will start from 2030 onwards.

The sources said that an announcement on intention to procure more Rafale could be made during the visit of French President Emanuel Macron next month, just like it was done during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in 2015. The contract was only signed late 2016 after negotiations and formalities were completed.

They said that in the current case, contract signing will be sped up since the broad contours have already been agreed to and formal processes have to be completed.

It is learnt that the final assembly line for the Rafales will come up at the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) Nagpur facility, which is now a subsidiary of the French aviation major Dassault Aviation that manufactures the fighter.

In September last year, Dassault Aviation acquired the majority stake in the joint venture. It is learnt that Anil Ambani-led Reliance, could sell its minority stake to another Indian company following which DRAL would be renamed if the plans move ahead.

Multiple Indian companies like TATA, Mahindra, Dynamatic Technologies Limited along with over 3 dozen other firms are expected to be part of the Rafale project. TATA has already been contracted for manufacturing the fuselage for the Rafale which will go into foreign orders at this moment.

It is also learnt that the Final Assembly Line (FAL) will eventually cater to Rafale’s global demand and will act as the second manufacturing hub of the French aviation major.

The sources said that the overall Indian numbers could go up with time. Dassault Aviation has a capacity to produce 25 aircraft per year, which is being planned to increase to 50. The Indian FAL will have a capacity of 24 aircraft per year.

As of 31 December, 2025, Dassault Aviation has a backlog of 220 Rafale (175 Export, 45 France) in comparison to 220 Rafale (164 Export, 56 France) in the same date previous year.

The sources said that while Dassault is manufacturing the Rafale F4 version, India is going with certain upgrades to the Spectra electronic warfare system and the version will be known as F4 Star or F4*.

ThePrint was the first to report in April last year that the Indian government has decided to go in for 114 Rafale for the IAF and formal process will start later that year.

In the second half of 2025, the IAF formally moved a proposal to acquire the Rafale following which discussions happened at the Defence Ministry level and at government-to-government level.

ThePrint reported in September that the Rafale contract is being planned to be signed in 2026. At that time, the cost was estimated at about Rs 2 lakh crore. This figure now stands at Rs 3.25 lakh crore.

Dassault Aviation is already setting up a Maintenance Repair and Overhaul Facility (MRO) in India, as reported, and have committed to making India as a Rafale manufacturing and maintenance hub besides the facilities in France.

India will emerge as the largest operators of the Rafale aircraft outside of France. In 2016, the country bought 36 Rafale and ordered 26 Rafale Marine aircraft for the Navy last year

UAE will have to clinch a new order to remain 1st customer....

 

[Bon Plan]

Then it was supposed to cost less than $150 million per aircraft with local production.

In France the dry Rafale cost is in the 80 to 90€ million without VAT and with something like 7% margin.
Why wouldn't that be possible in India ?
=> Don't use HAL, which calculate to need 2,7 more man hour to built the jet..... Something usual with them.
=> Don't put in the bill the multi year support (at a level never guaranteed by any other), the weapon package, the base accomodation, the training equipments, some special goodies (something LM only agree to Israel).

You already said why we cannot put our radar inside Rafale.

You also have to change or at lest modify the computing unit, fine tune the sensor fusion, make another time ALL the anechoic chamber tests....
Is there some space "in the middle" of UTTAM to adapt OSF ? if not no OSF.
etc....
A hard, coslty and maybe (probably) less potent upgrade.

Use unstead UTTAM in Tejas, super MKI and an improved one in AMCA.

 

[screambowl]

The 18 fly-away + the rest assembled in India model, with a gradual increase to 60% local content, is exactly in line with the C-295. It is not improvised, it is not ideological, it has become the Indian norm for structuring platforms. And the fact that the Nagpur FAL is set to become a second global Rafale hub, and not just an ‘Indian’ line, is a very strong signal: we are talking about strategic industrial redundancy, not just a simple offset.

So most probably this looks like a repeat of Su30MKI. India first bought 50 directly and then rest were licensed produced slowly with around 60% indigenized components in it in a span of 25 years except the engine which is licensed produced.

 

[Ginvincible]

You can't make an SSBN by just having le SmArT people and once cant make an SSBN through fluke. It requires huge investment and organization. We spent no less than $10 billion on the Arihant program. Now the government will money and intent is there for Tejas Mk1A Mk2 and AMCA programs and they will happen. The only difficult point is the engine. We need GE404 and GE414. The Chinese had to rely on Russian engines until no earlier than 2015 by when they had J10 J20 J16 J15 all working mostly on Russian engines for a very long time. So importing engines for our indigenous jets is not a bad thing while we work with the French for the 120 kN class engine. The US deliberately screwing up Indian capabilities against China by doing fishy stuff with engine supplies is unlikely. GE404 likely genuinely has supply chain problems cuz the entire production was shut down and our ppl were smart enough to pick it even then lol.

Btw Astra Mk2 is already in advanced stages and tests have already been done. To think it wont be in production by 2030 is an extraordinary claim to say the least heck if Gandiva gets into testing mode by 2027 it may see LSP in 2030. Astra Mk2 is technically more sophisticated than Meteor when it comes to guidance.

I hope I'm wrong but based on track record alone it is logical to reason the indigenous aircraft programs will all come in way too late if ever. Like many, I have zero faith in HAL's ability to deliver or the MoD's ability to push paperwork to get Tejas/AMCA out in numbers on time. Supply issues around engines and other components also work against India here.

I'm not really worried about missiles. By 2030 they better have certified astra mk2 and have gotten into the testing phases of mk3. I think kusha and other missile defense projects will be what save India in the future. Just need to actually induct these in numbers which is easier said than done. Bureaucracy and all that.

Rafale and whatever drones they pick up will probably be the main force in the skies combating the 5-6th gen threats til the early-2050s. Hopefully we start to see a rollout of AMCA or whatever else is cooked up over the next 2 decades. Realistically India should just tie up with the French on the FCAS program and go all in on the ecosystem. Make AMCA an Indianized FCAS or something along those lines.

There are two things.
- Rafale is an excellent fighter with top of the line european armaments.
- This is a over delayed, over engineered, stupid deal which is too little too late. Had it been in 2008-2012 it would have been exceptional.

I do not think "too little too late" is the right way to think about this deal. I think "better something versus nothing" is the correct mindset. Yea, it would have made more sense 15 years ago but there is no point crying over spilt milk. Every Indian defense watcher has shed enough tears over the IAF's atrophying strength for decades now.

IAF desperately needs squadrons, and they can do a lot worse than the Rafale.

 

[RationalGuy]

I hope I'm wrong but based on track record alone it is logical to reason the indigenous aircraft programs will all come in way too late if ever. Like many, I have zero faith in HAL's ability to deliver or the MoD's ability to push paperwork to get Tejas/AMCA out in numbers on time. Supply issues around engines and other components also work against India here.

I'm not really worried about missiles. By 2030 they better have certified astra mk2 and have gotten into the testing phases of mk3. I think kusha and other missile defense projects will be what save India in the future. Just need to actually induct these in numbers which is easier said than done. Bureaucracy and all that.

Rafale and whatever drones they pick up will probably be the main force in the skies combating the 5-6th gen threats til the early-2050s. Hopefully we start to see a rollout of AMCA or whatever else is cooked up over the next 2 decades. Realistically India should just tie up with the French on the FCAS program and go all in on the ecosystem. Make AMCA an Indianized FCAS or something along those lines.


I do not think "too little too late" is the right way to think about this deal. I think "better something versus nothing" is the correct mindset. Yea, it would have made more sense 15 years ago but there is no point crying over spilt milk. Every Indian defense watcher has shed enough tears over the IAF's atrophying strength for decades now.

IAF desperately needs squadrons, and they can do a lot worse than the Rafale.

Im very confident we will see 1-2 squadrons of Tejas Mk1A in service by 2030 and Tejas Mk2 first flight. AMCA idk. Hopefully first flight by 2030 but considering the expertise we have gained from previous programs, the lessons learned, the ecosystem maturity in India now to produce the LRUs and other aspects, I highly doubt AMCA will turn out a protracted program like Tejas. Except engine we can make everything else by ourselves.

 

[RationalGuy]

And the reason for this conversation because, French doesn't face an immediate threat while IAF does,
The rafale Will be against J20, J-35, J-16, J-10C, so the descision has to be strategic, you need long term solutions, don't have to heavily depend on other's, in order to do that you need to create supply chains, greater indigenous contents, assembly lines, engine MRO, training personal, integration of indigenous weapons, you can't sustain the war without such infrastructure, the threat levels are very different for the French airforce and the Indian Air force, that's why you can see why India has is pushing even greater IC in su30mki and we have been able to push upgrade projects like super sukhoi, with the su30mki we don't have to majorly depend upon the Russians everytime,
To negate the threat of pl15 & PL17, we already have started trials of Astra mk2, and Astra mk3 on su30mki, but we can't expect such things on rafale,

Those rafales are going to face network centric 5th gen & 6th gen platforms armed with PL17, you have to utilise everything which you have at your assets, there leaves zero chances for an error, as the threat levels are different for both the air forces, untill MBDA or French doesn't come up with long range BVR, meteor Will be the final stay, but that's not the case here the Pl17 holds advantage over meteor, but we do have something to counter it which is Astra mk3, if we aren't going to integrate such large number of aircrafts with our primary Long range BVR, we are at great disadvantage, similar ARM roles rafales uses AGM -88 HARM which is great but rudram 2 & 3 are even greater which gives you 350 & 550km range, which is necessary for us to integrate those missiles on rafales,

As you said there's two different talks about the rafale deals, as the threat levels are completely different,

Rafale would likely be the first nato jet which gonna be opposite against a 5th gen Chinese jets in real combat not F-35,
So when we talk about the aircraft deal, you have to factor everything, we need these jets to be well armed, flexible, cost effective munitions, spare parts, engine availability, a whole ecosystem to support this, and we are going to operate 176 of this jets, the second after france to operate such fleet we definitely need the ecosystem to maintain them, can't do without having greater indigenous contents, or access to mission computer,

F16V of Taiwan may face J20 and J35 before Rafale does. But that's an even more hopeless fight.

 

[Rune]

I don't think my brain will be able to handle both P-75I and MRFA program concluding in the same year. Two of the most troubled programs ending together

 

[Lolwa]

At this price, the orange man will personally deliver F-35 to you,

36$ billion dollars for 114 jets
Comes with 30% IC
Only the later variants comes with F5 variants,

36$ billion for 4.5th gen jets,
And nobody has issues with it,
How are they going to fund AMCA, MK2, cats warrior, Ghatak

I think it's going to be similar to the ak-203 IRRPL deal. The initial batches were 10-15% IC content slowly going up to 50% and ending up with 90+% IC content.
In this case it most likely will go from 30% of initial batches to 50-60% mid production to 70-80% plus. What's concerning is that f-5's will be produced in France only. I don't know. Should have went for the typhoon tbh would have costed us the same. I just hope the astra mk2 and mk3 get integrated to them. There still has been no response regarding the mk2 Tejas.

 

[Lolwa]

Folks the jokes write themselves.

In 2001 IAF needed 126 Mirage 2000-5s.
India did not issue RFI till 2004-5. LOL! For 6.5 billion dollars.
Dassault closed the production lines.
IAF, GoI and 6 Vendors did entire song and dance of selecting jets till 2012. When rafale was finally chosen. LOL!
In 2014, Rafale deal was stuck because India wanted Dassault to give guarentee on jets made by HAL. LOL! All this Shit in India thing will be our end.
By 2015 or 2016 124 jet deal was scuttled and we got 36 jets for some 3 billion dollars or so?

Then IAF got its *censored* whooped... TWICE!

So now they paniced and bought remaining 114 Jets too... For 32 billion dollars. LOL! And now they get no tech transfer as well... Plus delivery in 2030s. DOUBLE LOL!


I mean who the *censored* raised that objection of "Gibs me guarentee for HAL made jets!!!!!" should be found, named, *censored*ed in public and then shot.

We know all of it is a cope. Lets park all things aside.

We are BUYING jets needed in 2001 by 2030. YUP!

Countries develop brand new jets in mass in that time frame or less.

Look at South Korea.
Look at Taiwan.
Look anywhere in the world.

We are the only idiots who take quarter to third of a century to buy jets and get a worse deal to boot!

This is Pennywise pound foolish deal. Too late. If this deal was signed by 2016-2018 it would not have been a problem. Right now. I don't think we have enough budget to buy the f-35's. Cause AMCA ain't seeing the light of day before 2032 with current trajectory of work. And the 6th gen cheeni planes will get online. We need the E-7 or E-3's atleast if we want to take advantage of the Rafales capabilities.

 

[Hydra]

I don't think my brain will be able to handle both P-75I and MRFA program concluding in the same year. Two of the most troubled programs ending together

Shows GOI have realised the urgency. Its matter of few years we gonna face pak china co ordinated military attack on as, probably aling with BD.