Operation Sindoor: India Strikes Terroist Camps Inside Pakitsan
- Thread starter Defc0n
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I doubt things work like this. Operational details are not shared with even the political leadership. Military is given objectives. They come up with options and risks.
I am pretty sure political and civilian leadership would have said that they do not want escalation and full scale war and only anti terrorist operation with full BDA and proofs.
Forces came up with options of destroying terror infra using airforce and drones for BDA. I am sure they would have conveyed the risks as well because we did not do any SEAD/DEAD before attacking and neither we did air interdiction beforehand.
*Ahem* Sorry to say but in this context you are wrong.
In this context of Op Sindoor, no innovation was required.
We knowingly did not go with full fledged air supremacy in mind. There was no AEW&C platform involved. It was like Op Bandar / Balakot with some bugs fixed and new vulnerabilities allowed.
We just did not follow the manual of air ops that is known since 1990s. We were acting like we were hitting Palestine but that was no palestine we were hitting. We did not do net centric warfare that is the staple of air combat since late 80s and 90s.
To operate with impunity, you will need to destroy the opponent's air defense and suppress his air platforms.
This was no defeat of western technology by Chinese etc. This was just playing a wrong playbook.
I believe this guy says it the best... what went wrong here...
To grow an economy rapidly like China it requires deep rooted reforms and mass deployment of infrastructure. Such things are not possible in a short time frame in a democracy because many of the reforms are un popular and bad for electoral gains. Thus in a democracy especially a third world poor one like India economic development will be slow meaning growth in innovation and technology will be slow compared to a growth focused autocracy. Even Modi cannot do required deep rooted reforms now. This spills over in defence too, HAL DRDO need reforms and re organization but unions will prevent this and the issue will inevitably become politicized, not to mention the all powerful Indian bureaucracy will also hinder these reforms. Thus wtr to China we will forever be behind but we need to develop our capabilities such that they cannot "push us around " so to speak. The best we can hope for in the foreseeable future is an economy around 1/3rd, maybe 1/2 of China's . I think such an economy will be enough to build a decent military which can prevent PLA from doing a 62 again.Again, people here are wrongly attributing the mistakes of political leadership to IAF. Modi was delusional if he thought that if IAF didn't fire at PAF a/c & bases, they would let IAF come in & bomb 9 different places in Pakistan including Bahawalpur. WTF is this logic????
When I say, our economy is our greatest strength, people don't seem to grasp what I am trying to say. Our economy facilitates our innovation. Innovation is the only thing that creates asymmetric advantages in battlefield. No amount of imported Rafales will be able to overcome innovations like these:
View attachment 43482
We imported a $300 mil gold plated non-stealth a/c [Rafales] which fires meteor that cant be guided by our AWACS.
A much smarter choice would be buy more Netra mk2 which can guide astra mk3. Buy more Tejas mk1A/mk2, upgraded Su-30mki that can act as bomb trucks carrying astra & rudram series of missiles. Then buy hundreds of CATS warriors which will carry BVR missiles on their own. Such a force can eat up any stealth or non-stealth fighters that Pak can muster up.
An inferior a/c fighting in a networked environment will always come on top of an uber-expensive Rafale fighting alone.
Is it just me or that Ballistic missile thing will be shown to all the countries and their heads.
This makes sense why Pakistan was saying BS things like India launched a number of prithvi ballistic missiles on Harmandar Sahib.
It was to hide this thing.
And now I know why government kept it under warps and is keeping it under warps. To avoid public backlash as why India did not escalate even further.
This makes sense why Pakistan was saying BS things like India launched a number of prithvi ballistic missiles on Harmandar Sahib.
It was to hide this thing.
And now I know why government kept it under warps and is keeping it under warps. To avoid public backlash as why India did not escalate even further.
Very interesting...
Not only western command removed it but also NDTV... whats up?
Only Barkha Dutt has one copy lying around...
If Shaheen scoop is real, that will explain why all of this ceasefire happen. It was due to the fear of Indian nuclear escalation on Pakistan.
Not only western command removed it but also NDTV... whats up?
Only Barkha Dutt has one copy lying around...
If Shaheen scoop is real, that will explain why all of this ceasefire happen. It was due to the fear of Indian nuclear escalation on Pakistan.
I believe it was less likely what you said. It was more about massive scale retaliation that was being prepped for the next Phase. Frankly speaking the Pak army was caught sleeping when guarding major airbases. It will take very little imagination to conjure that image country wide (there were many targets still available). This would have crippled them to the nth degree. It was fear of loss of personnel and important bases that led to their call for help.
Are you seriously quoting a guy who thinks we operate our airforces like soviet union?
This is the fundamental issue with most of the American military commentary on others. These people are always self obsessed, they dont know anything about other nations other than maybe NATO. Most of them lack basic general knowledge. Its that classic midwit meme.
This guy thinks we operate a Soviet A50 and a few AWACS of our own. That's how much he did his homework. From that, he concluded that "Pakistan is fighting a modern war while India is fighting like it's Vietnam". An absolute bozo full of confidence. Since Pakistan is/was an American ally and since they use F-16s, they are closer to us and therefore more advanced in aircombat. They think since we use all the migs and sukhois we must be using the soviet way of warfare. This is the default midwit American worldview. I saw similar comment by @Innominate .
What these midwits actually miss is that our way of fighting comes from Britich not Soviet. We modified every fighter of Eastern origin to our way of fighting. Our doctrines evolved from British with Soviet equipment. MiG-21, a Soviet interceptor, was used primarily for high-speed hit-and-run attacks, diverging from Soviet doctrinal norms that prioritized ground-controlled interception. In fact modern IAF doctraine is akin to NATO’s multi-domain operations.
On AWACS, we operate the most advanced full fledged system in the subcontinent. We couldn't get a western platform, so we used an Il-76 with an Israeli Phalcon. Even the latest Pakistani Erieye cannot match its capabilities due to limitations in radar size and power generation. The reason why we don't have a sufficient number of AWACS is not due to doctrinal differences, but rather the indecision of the political class and delays in in-house developments. We are part of the handful of nations that can actually build a full AWACS indigenously. We are ordering 12 more GaN based AWACS based on the experience. Thats more than any European nation.
We definitely have enough net-centric warfare and capable electronic warfare systems. That is another misinformed take by someone lacking knowledge. You have to seriously question your critical thinking abilities if you think we didn't have AWACS in the air while we conducted the largest aerial warfare offensive in a decade. Dont be that NRI meme who looks up to every opinion of a white person, detect midwits.
This was NOT a question of capabilities possessed but the ones used in Op Sindoor.
We DID NOT do modern air combat on May 6-7. No SEAD/DEAD, no AWACS, no net centric war. Thats the reality.
Those are info presented by Ryan and corroborated and parroted by brown sepoys.
I will write certain things that will absolutely cut into the heart of this matter. It will be cold and might hurt a few members (my apologies in advance).
1. India wanted to portray itself as the good guy seeking to punish the adversary (only militants).
2. This narrative was completely visible in all modes of communication at all times during the course of the entire military op.
3. It seems Pak had been informed by allied countries (even India's own allies) that an attack was imminent as the Indian administration was very upset.
4. Any kind of understanding that was present at the DGMO/Political level etc. was completely out of the window. As always the Pakistanis' said one thing and did another (immediate retaliation).
5. An aerial battle seems to have indeed taken place (within borders).
6. There were losses on both sides it seems.
7. Exaggerated claims by PAF and vested interests (varying by nature) have amplified India's miscalculations and lack of combat abilities.
8. India has been unable to combat the initial two day narrative.
9. Public hysteria over social media over AI content and misinformation. A very vulnerable section of your society it seems relies on social media and has little stomach for losses.
10. A less than co-operative opposition.
11. Direct support to PAF by friendly countries.
12. It seems that Pak was much more willing to humble itself in front of their bosses (the scale of Phase II scared them it seems).
1. India wanted to portray itself as the good guy seeking to punish the adversary (only militants).
2. This narrative was completely visible in all modes of communication at all times during the course of the entire military op.
3. It seems Pak had been informed by allied countries (even India's own allies) that an attack was imminent as the Indian administration was very upset.
4. Any kind of understanding that was present at the DGMO/Political level etc. was completely out of the window. As always the Pakistanis' said one thing and did another (immediate retaliation).
5. An aerial battle seems to have indeed taken place (within borders).
6. There were losses on both sides it seems.
7. Exaggerated claims by PAF and vested interests (varying by nature) have amplified India's miscalculations and lack of combat abilities.
8. India has been unable to combat the initial two day narrative.
9. Public hysteria over social media over AI content and misinformation. A very vulnerable section of your society it seems relies on social media and has little stomach for losses.
10. A less than co-operative opposition.
11. Direct support to PAF by friendly countries.
12. It seems that Pak was much more willing to humble itself in front of their bosses (the scale of Phase II scared them it seems).
The only confirmation that I have from this entire conflict:
The vulnerability of the airbases is so glaring that actual defence analysts are amazed that the IAF took out so many of them. Additionally, India has a lot to do in terms of investing in its own defence and deterrence abilities. The rest I will leave to professionals.
The vulnerability of the airbases is so glaring that actual defence analysts are amazed that the IAF took out so many of them. Additionally, India has a lot to do in terms of investing in its own defence and deterrence abilities. The rest I will leave to professionals.
And yet the operations on May 9-10 followed exactly this playbook - extensive SEAD/DEAD saturation of Pakistani AD followed by debilitating strikes on air base infrastructure. Most of their important bases were left in no shape to carry out air operations for at least a few days while they repair the giant holes in their runways. Scores of air-launched cruise missiles were released from every kind of platform (Rafale, MKI, Jaguar), and took no losses unlike just a few days before where they were doing a similar role, but did take losses.
Unless you want to say that we suddenly learnt a whole new way of warfighting in just a couple days, you'll realize that the reason why we did & didn't do certain actions on May 6-7 has more to do with political directives & ROEs than tactics or technology.
Of course, I will not argue with anyone who says that GOI/MoD were in the wrong for setting these ROEs the way they did. Every single loss we took on May 6-7 can be directly attributed to flawed formulation of ROE. We were setting ourselves up to fail, giving ourselves every single handicap we could.
Why GOI/MoD thought they had to do this, what political messaging they got out of it, and whether it was worth it in the end is anyone's guess. Nobody in GOI/MoD will be held accountable. That much we do know.
The only thing I can guess is that GOI/MoD were dead-set against giving the Pakistanis any way to paint us as the aggressor. If so, the reasoning they employed was deeply flawed - such an attack would anyway invite a military response from Pakistan, just like happened in 2019, regardless of who is seen as the aggressor. Another thing is that even if India were to have struck the Pak military first and then the terror targets, while saying we took them out first because we have the precedent of 2019 where PAF took military action in retaliation for us striking Balakot, absolutely no-one would have cared at the international level.
GOI/MoD often fears the pen more than the sword. Debilitatingly so.
Hopefully, that will change now.
There is zero questions about 9-10 but by then India was ready to fight a war. And it did hit Pakistan's airbases hard with missiles and stand off PGMs.
Thats why I said 6-7 was not a statement on Indian capabilities as much on Indian intentions. That day we had no intention of a modern air to air combat.
Indian public have to be smart now in environment of AI supported information warfare, It is progressively becoming very difficult to dispel all misinformation being propagated on various media.
Still I am happy that things are improving, in 2019 Balakot incident or 2020 Galwan clash I have seen so many members of this forum were reacting oddly to each information they got. This is less of the case this time, so definite improvements are visible at here and outside also.
The incident of Pak using Shaheen-2 seems to me like they wanted things to spiral - imagine that missile striking Delhi!
I am also concerned about our military reaction doctrine for BMs, depending on your AD/BMD is okay, but in case it failed to intercept the missile, then what? As per our nuclear doctrine which as been discussed multiple times, the very news of BM in air should have triggered a counter response, imagine the worst case, those egg-heads did indeed fire a nuke towards Delhi, and we were not prepared to strike back!
I guess only saving grace was the count of the BMs fired (would they fire just 1, mostly not) although this remains to be seen and confirmed by official sources.
I am deeply worried about us agreeing to the CF on 10th with this news coming out now - should have taught Pak lesson of their life time with BMs raining down all over Pak. This showed them that Pak can get away with this kind of stuff - they will do it again!
I am also concerned about our military reaction doctrine for BMs, depending on your AD/BMD is okay, but in case it failed to intercept the missile, then what? As per our nuclear doctrine which as been discussed multiple times, the very news of BM in air should have triggered a counter response, imagine the worst case, those egg-heads did indeed fire a nuke towards Delhi, and we were not prepared to strike back!
I guess only saving grace was the count of the BMs fired (would they fire just 1, mostly not) although this remains to be seen and confirmed by official sources.
I am deeply worried about us agreeing to the CF on 10th with this news coming out now - should have taught Pak lesson of their life time with BMs raining down all over Pak. This showed them that Pak can get away with this kind of stuff - they will do it again!