Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 16 36.4%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
The offer is for this new, immature design based on an already operational submarine. We need a larger displacement to meet mission requirements. So, There will be a delay in the delivery of the submarine.

If it's indeed the Type-212CD, then it is a mature design with good orders. However, it is unlikely.

All designs are immature before they are implemented..... One need to see track record & experience & Germany has it. They have already started building one at kiel in their new submarine facility. If it is indeed 212CD than all I can say is......

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Pakistan is upgrading its surface fkeets & under water fleets, here people are furious over decision to go with a german sub on baseless concerns
 
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MDL-TKMS bid for Navy’s P-75I submarine tender clears technical evaluation


The multi-billion dollar deal for six advanced conventional submarines under project-75I has crossed a major milestone with the bid by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL), Mumbai, and Germany’s TKMS (Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems) having cleared the technical evaluation conducted by the Defence Ministry. The bid by Larsen & Toubro in partnership with Navantia of Spain has not cleared the technical evaluation.

The benchmarked price of ₹43,000 crore for the deal was set a decade ago, and given the technological upgrades since and factoring in the inflation and currency fluctuations, the final cost is expected to see a major upward revision.

“MDL confirms that the commercial bid submitted by MDL has been opened by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for further processing,” MDL said on the P-75I bid in a disclosure statement on Thursday as per requirements of the market regulator Securities and Exchange Board of India.

The compliance checks of the two bids received were completed in June last year as part of the Field Evaluation Trials (FET) and the reports were since were under scrutiny in the Ministry. The bids were opened last week and the bid by MDL-TKMS was declared technically complaint, according to official sources. “The commercial negotiations will now commence based on the price quoted in the bid submitted,” a source stated.

The Request For Proposal (RFP) issued by the Navy for the programme detailing the specifications states that the first submarine should have indigenous content (IC) of 45% which should up to 60% for the sixth and last submarine. The key determinant, however, to qualify for P-75I is the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module, which enhances the endurance and stealth of a submarine. The AIP module became the real determinant for qualifying the technical criteria.

The design offered by TKMS, in partnership with MDL, is based on its highly successful Class 214 submarine as well as Class 212CD and has an operationally proven AIP module. Navantia, which has tied up with L&T, has offered a submarine based on its new S80 class of submarines, the first of which was launched in 2021 and was commissioned into the Spanish Navy as S-81 ‘Isaac Peral’ in November 2023. However, the AIP module on offer by Navantia isn’t fully operational yet, as required in the bid, and Navantia had demonstrated the AIP module fitted in a submarine operating on the surface and not submerged and the submerged performance was to be demonstrated in due course, as reported by The Hindu earlier.

The TKMS has conveyed to the Indian Navy that the Lithium ion cell in its AIP module will be upgraded by the time the first submarine is delivered. The AIP module has a Polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) based fuel cell and company officials had stated and that it has both fuel cell as well Lithium Ion based giving it enhanced performance.

As reported by The Hindu earlier, Germany has already presented a Government to Government proposal to India for the P-75I programme and Germany had also accorded a special status to India for approvals towards military purchases.

The submarine deal was on top of the agenda during the visits of the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez to India in the last quarter of last year.
 
So IN gets T1. Not bad.

At least we decided to junk the cost factor here. This sub's gonna be way more expensive. By at least $200M per compared to Navantia.
I think sweeden did a mistake by pulling out of tendering by thinking they won't win tender due to high price tag. Bad for them, and bad for us too.
 
Well, MDL built HDW submarines and then scorpene subs. How much technology did they absorb? They cannot absorb anything. They are forever learning from.TOT.

Probably, that is why Germans are teaming up with MDL. If it is L&T, they would learn and comep up sesi version in a decade

The report came alongside rumors of splitting the order, but that's unlikely for such a small order.

Let's see if orders are expanded to bring L&T in or we wait for a new program and new competition.

Spain lost due to their own delays, even after the MoD gave them so much time. So it is what it is.
 
I think sweeden did a mistake by pulling out of tendering by thinking they won't win tender due to high price tag. Bad for them, and bad for us too.
Sterling Cycle AIP. Efficiency is better but it is still noisy like the MESMA.

IN wouldn't have accepted their bids.
Well, MDL built HDW submarines and then scorpene subs. How much technology did they absorb? They cannot absorb anything. They are forever learning from.TOT.

Probably, that is why Germans are teaming up with MDL. If it is L&T, they would learn and comep up sesi version in a decade
The problem with submarine production unlike other types of vessels or aircrafts or tanks is that, if you have a break in your production line for some years. You will have to start from square 1.
 
The report came alongside rumors of splitting the order, but that's unlikely for such a small order.

Let's see if orders are expanded to bring L&T in or we wait for a new program and new competition.

Spain lost due to their own delays, even after the MoD gave them so much time. So it is what it is.
Since MDL is going to build both new order of scorpene & P75I, what is L&T going to build in it's submarine building facilities?

Who is building the new nuclear attack submarine? They are being built in vizag?
 
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Since MDL is going to build both new order of scorpene & P75I, what is L&T going to build in it's submarine building facilities?

We will know for sure once P-76 begins. It's gonna be a bigger program and will require 2 shipyards. I suppose the winner will get to build 7 subs versus 5. And there will be follow-ons after that.

It's under preliminary study today, once P-75I is signed we will see formal movement for approval through MoD and CCS. So it could officially start by 2027-28 and construction could begin by 2032 for a 2040+ service entry.

Who is building the new nuclear attack submarine? They are being built in vizag?

L&T is fabricating the hulls alongside some integration work, but assembly will happen at SBC.
 
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We will know for sure once P-76 begins. It's gonna be a bigger program and will require 2 shipyards. I suppose the winner will get to build 7 subs versus 5. And there will be follow-ons after that.

It's under preliminary study today, once P-75I is signed we will see formal movement for approval through MoD and CCS. So it could officially start by 2027-28 and construction could begin by 2032 for a 2040+ service entry.

L&T is fabricating the hulls alongside some integration work, but assembly will happen at SBSBC.
a) L&T did not build any submarine till now (maybe, they dis some contract work). Can they design and build a new desi submarine for p76?
b) what is SBC?
c) I was thinking submarines (particularly nuclear) are very difficult to detect. The following article says otherwise?? A $billion+ submarine can be hunted by a $50M helicopter?

 
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a) L&T did not build any submarine till now (maybe, they dis some contract work). Can they design and build a new desi submarine for p76?
b) what is SBC?
c) I was thinking submarines (particularly nuclear) are very difficult to detect. The following article says otherwise?? A $billion+ submarine can be hunted by a $50M helicopter?


L&T hasn't built full large submarines, but they have the expertise for it. They are partners with Russia for upgrading Kilos.

SBC is the navy's shipyard in Vizag. That's where the Arihant is being assembled.

Hunting submarines is a cat and mouse game. The cats claim they can catch the mice, the mice claim they can escape the cats. Maybe there's someone out there who's rendered all submarines useless or vice versa, but we are not gonna see such tech advertised and will be revealed only during a major war. This is something for people in the field to worry about, not us.
 
MDL has recently added a new yard + floating dry dock so it likely has enough capacity to build both P-75I and Kalvari B2. Given the substantial experience L&T's built up, they should be given a bigger role in P-76/77 programs than just building hull sections and sending them to SBC. Their sprawling Kattupalli yard can't survive much longer on ad-hoc servicing of USN vessels and subcontract work for stretched DPSUs. Awarding contracts on a nomination basis must end.
 
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MDL has recently added a new yard + floating dry dock so it likely has enough capacity to build both P-75I and Kalvari B2. Given the substantial experience L&T's built up, they should be given a bigger role in P-76/77 programs than just building hull sections and sending them to SBC. Their sprawling Kattupalli yard can't survive much longer on ad-hoc servicing of USN vessels and subcontract work for stretched DPSUs. Awarding contracts on a nomination basis must end.

I believe that new dry dock will be used to build NGD, all 8 of them. The program is supposed to start sometime this year.

I agree with the nomination bit, but the issue is L&T needs to win tenders, and that's difficult. The next project is NGC, which will go live soon. The good news is contract will be split 5:3, so there's opportunity for second place.

L&T was supposed to fight with another private shipyard for LHD, but now it has to compete with three DPSUs. Two of the DPSUs are competing with their own designs, while L&T is partnering up with Spain and MDL with the French. Plus Juan Carlos is expensive. And from what I understand, the 2 indigenous designs are being done with the help of IN's WDB, so they have the advantage. So that's a losing battle right from the start.

Their best hope is to tie up with SoKo or Japan to build cargo ships and oil tankers.

The only area where competition is limited is P-76. And if IN splits it like NGC, then L&T is guaranteed to get some.
 
MDL hinted at looking for commercial market opportunities the reason behind that expansion at Nhava Sheva, ie non-defence shipbuilding. Obviously to cater for much larger tonnage vessels. Their existing yards can do the warship orders easily. Can even outsource the hull blocks to some pvt players like SHOFT and do full integration at own yardm like GRSE have plans for the NGD with LT Kattupally.
 
The agreement on Project -75(I) hasn't even been inked & I'm already seeing tweets regarding the final project cost with estimates varying between ~ 60,000 cr - 1,00,000 cr. Sounds like fun.

Looks like we're bailing out another Foreign OEM after we bailed out Sevmash Shipyard courtesy INS Vikramaditya, the MiG ecosystem courtesy the aircraft complex aboard the INS Vikramaditya & before that the Sukhoi ecosystem & thru these & ordersw like the T-90, the entire Russian defence industry & look what they do with the money earned & products developed thereby, in Ukraine.

Regarding Project -76 , fwiw, I understand that it's going to be divided into 2 lots - the first lot of 6 will be analogous to the existing Scorpene class with a displacement < 2000 tons & the next lot will be analogous to the TKMS ~ 3000 tons + being developed. It's a 20 year plan with the second lot succeeding the first lot & not being mfgd in parallel. Also no clue if it will be divided between MDL & L&T.
 
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