Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 16 36.4%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
I agree with the nomination bit, but the issue is L&T needs to win tenders, and that's difficult. The next project is NGC, which will go live soon. The good news is contract will be split 5:3, so there's opportunity for second place.
DPSUs win because they can afford to low-ball their bids. After all, they don't have to worry about margins like pvt yards. Their MO is bait and switch - win on L1 basis and demand cost revisions during the execution phase - a tactic that the gullible MoD falls for all too often. And despite all this, DPSU yards almost never deliver projects on time. Contrast this with L&T delivering the Vikram class OPVs in record time.

After Reliance's NOPV fiasco, the IN is understandably jittery about awarding critical projects to pvt yards. But that's no reason to paint all pvt yards with the same brush.

L&T was supposed to fight with another private shipyard for LHD, but now it has to compete with three DPSUs. Two of the DPSUs are competing with their own designs, while L&T is partnering up with Spain and MDL with the French. Plus Juan Carlos is expensive. And from what I understand, the 2 indigenous designs are being done with the help of IN's WDB, so they have the advantage. So that's a losing battle right from the start.
So the IN is hand-holding DPSU yards while leaving pvt yards to fend for themselves. Ideally, WDB should have come up with the basic design and let each competitor do the detailed engineering and customization. On the same lines as the WhAP which has organically evolved into a dedicated CBRN and AFV/IFV version with more spin-offs (105mm gun?) on the anvil. Imo, L&T should complain to the CCI if the IN is indeed playing favourities with DPSU yards.

Their best hope is to tie up with SoKo or Japan to build cargo ships and oil tankers.
Building naval support/civilian ships will help keep them afloat. But L&T has built up niche expertise in hull fabrication via ATV. They need to be given the opportunity to do assembly and outfitting- the next step up in the value chain. They've shown great initiative like SOV-400 and the latest follow-on design, likely using internal funds. Something you'd never see DPSU yards doing.
 
DPSUs win because they can afford to low-ball their bids. After all, they don't have to worry about margins like pvt yards. Their MO is bait and switch - win on L1 basis and demand cost revisions during the execution phase - a tactic that the gullible MoD falls for all too often. And despite all this, DPSU yards almost never deliver projects on time. Contrast this with L&T delivering the Vikram class OPVs in record time.

After Reliance's NOPV fiasco, the IN is understandably jittery about awarding critical projects to pvt yards. But that's no reason to paint all pvt yards with the same brush.

The issue is private shipyards are yet to be tested. Sometimes delays are attributable to the IN changing design midway through the construction.

So the IN is hand-holding DPSU yards while leaving pvt yards to fend for themselves. Ideally, WDB should have come up with the basic design and let each competitor do the detailed engineering and customization. On the same lines as the WhAP which has organically evolved into a dedicated CBRN and AFV/IFV version with more spin-offs (105mm gun?) on the anvil. Imo, L&T should complain to the CCI if the IN is indeed playing favourities with DPSU yards.

I think, in this case, L&T can also choose to design their own ship, but I suppose they think going in with a proven ship is better. MDL is in the same boat.

Building naval support/civilian ships will help keep them afloat. But L&T has built up niche expertise in hull fabrication via ATV. They need to be given the opportunity to do assembly and outfitting- the next step up in the value chain. They've shown great initiative like SOV-400 and the latest follow-on design, likely using internal funds. Something you'd never see DPSU yards doing.

P-76 is the main thrust area for that. Let's see how it goes. The program is for 12 large subs in 2 batches, so it's a big one.
 
a) L&T did not build any submarine till now (maybe, they dis some contract work). Can they design and build a new desi submarine for p76?
b) what is SBC?
c) I was thinking submarines (particularly nuclear) are very difficult to detect. The following article says otherwise?? A $billion+ submarine can be hunted by a $50M helicopter?

Not new.
There were advanced projects for Mica fired from torpedo pipe (same way than SM39 exocet), or 3 Mistral ready to be fired from installation in the kiosk.
 
Not new.
There were advanced projects for Mica fired from torpedo pipe (same way than SM39 exocet), or 3 Mistral ready to be fired from installation in the kiosk.
The moment a submarine fires missile into air, will the enemy air assets not know the location of the submarine and hunt for it?
Remember, a submarine can not out run any enemy air asset. Essentially, a $billion+ submarine will become a slow running duck.

Earlier, I was thinking that submarines are impossible to detect, particularly nuclear submarines.
 
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The moment a submarine fires missile into air, will the enemy air assets not know the location of the submarine and hunt for it?
Remember, a submarine can not out run any enemy air asset. Essentially, a $billion+ submarine will become a slow running duck.

Earlier, I was thinking that submarines are impossible to detect, particularly nuclear submarines.
It is why SLBM are fitted with torpedoes and exocet like missiles : normally a SLBM make all the possible to remain stealthy and to avoid to be detected, but if they are detected and tracked they are able to defend themselve.

So why not a missile to defent islef against a patrol aircraft or a helo ?
 
Naval News contributor Alex Luck said about the design: We know Type 214NG or alternatively 214I is the proposed design.
It would mirror the outer hull shaping of 212CD. It would presumably integrate either the German AIP or whatever the Indians want sourced from DRDO,”
he added.

About the importance of P75(I) for the German shipbuilder, Alex Luck commented: “I think its an important win for TKMS to keep the 214 development path active and in that regard is most valuable. That being said Indian procurements tend to be drawn out and fraught with management risk, hence I think its an important, but complex event for Germany.”
 
The IN clearly fancies the stealthy angled hull of the Type-212C/D. The only other sub that has an inclined hull ( as opposed to a more hydro-dynamic 'teardrop' shape) is the UK Astute class. The Brits are known for their ASW expertise. Should bode well for the IN.
 

India-Germany submarine deal: What does it mean for Russia?​

The German engineering and steel production conglomerate Thyssenkrupp is set to build six submarines for the Indian navy in a multi-billion-dollar deal after a bid with its Indian partner was approved.

The conglomerate's shipbuilding division, known as Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), teamed up with India's state-owned Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders (MDS) for the contract. Both companies recently confirmed that India's Ministry of Defense had opened the bid for "further processing."

The bid was the only one to clear the navy's field trials, beating off competition from Spanish company Navantia, which had partnered with India's Larsen & Toubro.

An exchange filing by MDS said the Indian Ministry of Defense had invited the company for commercial negotiations. Media reports quoting people close to the discussions put the value of the project at around $5.2 billion (€5 billion), but the final figure could be higher.

In a statement provided to DW by Thyssenkrupp, Oliver Burkhard, CEO of TKMS, said, "By acting in partnership, and with the support of the German and Indian governments MDL and Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems will be setting standards for a sustainable and safe maritime future."

The deal is not necessarily a sign that India's dependence on Russian military imports will be reduced anytime soon. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Russia accounted for 36% of India's defense imports from 2019-2023, the most of any single country.
"India's reliance on the Russian military platforms continues unabated, and it has shown little desire to substantially reduce that dependence on Moscow," Sushant Singh, lecturer in South Asian studies at Yale University, told DW.

However, SL Narasimhan, a retired member of the Indian defense forces and an expert in Indian security issues, expects more collaboration between India and Europe on defense "when the requirement, price expectations and availability match."

Speaking with DW, he pointed to a recent agreement between France and India to build Scorpene class submarines in India as another example of collaboration.

Germany has also been exporting arms in large volumes to India. In the first six months of 2024, India was the third-largest recipient of German arms, valued at around €153.75 million ($160 million).

Designed in Germany, made in India​

The deal with Thyssenkrupp is for six diesel submarines, known as advanced conventional submarines. Among the technical requirements is that the submarines have air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology, allowing them to stay underwater longer to increase stealth capacity.
A view of INS Vela, Indian Navy's fourth stealth Scorpene-class submarine during the commissioning ceremony at Naval Dockyard in Mumbai, India, on November 25, 2021
A view of INS Vela, Indian Navy's fourth stealth Scorpene-class submarine during the commissioning ceremony at Naval Dockyard in Mumbai, India, on November 25, 2021

India and France have done similar deals to produce Scorpene submarinesImage: Imtiyaz Shaikh/AA/picture alliance
It's part of an Indian Navy strategy to boost its capability in the face of the Chinese navy's growing presence in the Indian Ocean and across South Asia. "India is now becoming a major maritime power of the world," Prime Minister Narendra Modi said earlier this month at the launch of two Indian-made warships and a submarine.

TKMS has said it will help with engineering and designing the new submarines, with MDS building them in India.

Thyssenkrupp has a substantial history with the Indian Navy. Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft, a former shipbuilder now owned by TKMS, built four submarines for India in the 1980s, with two built in the German city of Kiel and two in Mumbai.

Sushant Singh says there was "nothing new" about this latest deal. "It is an old project which has moved forward after major delays when the fleet of submarines in the Indian navy has reached a critical stage."
A submarine moored in front of a shipyard
A submarine moored in front of a shipyard

Thyssenkrupp has a history of building Indian submarinesImage: Christian Charisius/dpa/picture alliance
Modi has prioritized domestic defense manufacturing and Indian defense spending overall has increased substantially in absolute terms during his decade as prime minister. However, defense spending as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) has fallen in each of the past four years.

"The defense forces are crying for modernization but are getting no funds to buy modern weapons and platforms," said Singh. "More than half of India's defense spending goes towards personnel costs, and with high inflation and falling foreign exchange rates, the funds for buying defense equipment are coming down drastically in real terms."

Russian reliance
The deal with Thyssenkrupp aligns with Modi's domestic manufacturing push since the submarines will be built in India. However, according to the most recent data from SIPRI, India remains the world's largest arms importer, accounting for almost 10% of global arms imports between 2019 and 2023.

Central to that story has been Russia, still the key partner for Modi's government when it comes to arms imports, but there are signs that dependence is gradually falling. While 36% of Indian arms exports came from Russia from 2019-2023, the figure was 46% for 2017-2021 and 69% for 2012-2016.

Singh is doubtful, however, saying the deal with Thyssenkrupp is not typical of a trend. "These kinds of limited collaborations, with a past record and for some specific equipment, can happen."

Why is India pivoting away from Russian weapons?​


02:40

During a meeting between Modi and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz last October, the two leaders agreed to support "enhanced industry-level cooperation in the defense sector," singling out a specific focus on "technology collaboration, manufacturing/co-production and co-development of defense platforms and equipment."

When approached by DW for comment about possible future Indian-German defense sector collaboration, the German Ministry for Defence referred to a statement made by Defense Minister Boris Pistorius on a visit to India in 2023.

"We need reliable cooperation in the field of armaments and military cooperation with strategically reliable partners. And that includes India," he said at the time.

Nonetheless, Singh expects high volumes of Russian imports to continue to India due to several factors. "This is because of the low price of Russian platforms, Moscow's willingness to transfer high technology, and the Russian control of spares and ammunition for equipment already in Indian military service."
 
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Deal finalised for Mazagon Dock to build six advanced German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems submarines between 2025 & 2032 .


This article is nothing but a rehashed MDL press-release. Funny how MDL thinks they'd finish constructing 6 Type-214s before the first Kalvari B2 hits the water. I don't believe cnc (cost negotiations) talks have even started yet.
 
This article is nothing but a rehashed MDL press-release. Funny how MDL thinks they'd finish constructing 6 Type-214s before the first Kalvari B2 hits the water. I don't believe cnc (cost negotiations) talks have even started yet.
It is nothing different from any other vertical of business, say you want to buy an AC or a phone, or get a beneficial investing opportunity in a fund. We will always get sold the idea with sweet promises, but afterwards maintenance, servicing etc becomes a burden.
 
It is nothing different from any other vertical of business, say you want to buy an AC or a phone, or get a beneficial investing opportunity in a fund. We will always get sold the idea with sweet promises, but afterwards maintenance, servicing etc becomes a burden.
Pvt cos giving a positive spin to deals still under negotiation is understandable but MDL stock is over 85% govt owned. They don't have much to gain.