Russian Navy : Discussions and Updates

[Fafnir]

Firepower

Amazing submarines, but Russia has had terrible luck with their submarine force recently. Kursk sunk. Tomsk caught fire. K-159 sunk. Ekaterinburg caught fire. Nerpa leaked gas. Sold to India, and suffered more damage. Losharik or Belgorod caught fire July 1st. Unnamed Kilo, fire in 2018. B-414, yup you guessed it, fire damage. It's been rough for Russia's submarines. Even their Yasen class is having issues. The Borei are fine though.

They also crippled their ability to refit Kuznetsov after their dry dock sunk.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1057323929369493505

Got to wonder how they're going to screw up refitting their Oscar IIs.

...

The naughty bits of a Delta-III SSBN.

missiles are kept outside inner hull any damage wont it sink the whole missiles?

Nah. The missiles are well supported by both the external pressure hull, the inner pressure hull and support bracing between. Wreckage of Kursk gave us a nice look at how the missle tubes are supported by the submarine's superstructure. In the event of damage to the outer hull they're the least concern.

Putin's unwillingness to accept Norwegian rescue operations support doomed Kursk's crew. While we weren't allowed to sail our DSRVs, we did collect plenty of intelligence (Norway knew Kursk was damaged before Russia) on the stricken submarine before the Russian's finally accepted out help in rescuing the submarine... after the whole crew perished.

As cynical as this is, Kursk's sinking was a boon for Norwegian and American intelligence. Because of Russia unwillingness to accept foreign help, and their inability to find where Kursk sunk - which was known to both Norway and the Americans - there was a 4 day period when western spy agencies could collect data, photos and other metrics on the Oscar II under the guise of attempting to locate the submarine - before Putin finally accepted western help. Norwegian divers even breached Kursk before Russia.

Anyway, long story short, those submarines, Russian Oscar IIs, are well build. Damage to the outer hull wont sink any missiles, might damage some, but they're of little risk if the submarine is attacked or suffers a catastrophic accident.

 

[Paro]

Fafnir do you have any pictures of Russian midget submarines and BS-64_Podmoskovye?

 

[Fafnir]

Fafnir do you have any pictures of Russian midget submarines and BS-64_Podmoskovye?

Of BS-64... yes, but also no. I can give you pictures of the topside, but they've already been publicly released. Of the cradle or the submarine's underside or of the submarine at sea? Yes, but nothing I can show you.

BS-64 holds Losharik in a cradle on its underside. The cradle on the top is for either DSRVs or large tonnage AUVs like Harpsichord.

A modernized Piranha class submarine called P-650 is to enter service as a special operations support craft in the coming years. The original Pirhanas, just two of twelve planned built, were dedicated to supporting Russian naval special forces.

Pirhana was retired and is the only true midget submarine of the Russian or Soviet navy. Other small tonnage ships include the X-Ray class and Paltus, a modified X-Ray, of special missions submarines (read cable tapping, recovery and special operations support missions). No pics of X-Ray.

The Uniform-class rounds out Russia's smaller special missions submarines.

For what's currently in service, this graphic gives a nice look. P-650 will enter service soon.

Russia also has some small craft like AS-37 and AS-39 that support rescue operations, or more commonly, special missions like cable tapping when deployed from special missions support ship Yantar. They don't belong to the Russian Navy though, rather they're property of the Main Directorate of Underwater Research, an arm of Russian intelligence.

Canadian designed ARS-600 one or two man deep-diving submersibles are also deployed from Yantar.

Triton 1 and 2 were diver delivery vehicles, not technically midget submarines, but still submersibles. Both are now retired.

SPLC, manned, and SPLT, optionally-manned, round out the list. Their exact purpose in the Soviet Navy isn't clear.

All small tonnage submarines of the Soviet and Russian Navy. Most are now retired.

 

[Fafnir]

K-278 inspected off Bear Isle by Ægir 6000 on 7 July, 2019. K-278 sunk nearly 30 years ago and now sits nearly 5,500 meters below the waves of the Barents Sea.

 

[BMD]

Project 11430E

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1149659847777906688

https://twitter.com/x/status/1149659549005017088

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1150087816992497669

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1156642246743248896

 

[Fafnir]

The neighbors drilling around Norwegian waters. As always we keep a close watch on their activities.

 

[Gautam]

That is a beautiful ship. It almost looks like the Formidable class of the RSN. What is that ?

 

[Fafnir]

What is that ?

That is Admiral Kasatonov - Admiral Gorshkov class guided missile frigate. The amount of firepower Russia has managed to put on a ship that size is staggering.

I would like to personally thank the Russian Navy for the intelligence gathering opportunity and would like to extend an invite for them to drill in our waters again soon.

 

[randomradio]

That is Admiral Kasatonov - Admiral Gorshkov class guided missile frigate. The amount of firepower Russia has managed to put on a ship that size is staggering.

All they had to do was remove the RBU-6000 on a Krivak III and use an integrated mast, which helped eliminate the 4 extra FCRs. At 135m long, it's a pretty big ship after all.

Even on the Kirvak III, one can imagine what can be achieved by just removing the the RBU-6000 and the Shtil ramp.

The Kolkata class as well, look at all the space lost because of the RBU-6000.

Even that L band radar is a relic of the past and can be eliminated.

 

[Gautam]

Even on the Kirvak III, one can imagine what can be achieved by just removing the the RBU-6000 and the Shtil ramp.

The Kolkata class as well, look at all the space lost because of the RBU-6000.

The whole RBU-6000 debate here has been done to death. The conclusions are the same always : There are some benefits to it, the Navy just upgraded it recently, so they won't be throwing it out anytime soon. The removal, if it is to happen, will start with large destroyers. The smaller frigates will continue with it(like the P-17A). The Vizag class will probably have it too.

Speaking of empty spaces, I see a lot of real estate left on that Kolkata's deck anyway. Why not load that up first ? How about we move all the Barak 8 VLS to the rear(look at all that space there) and expand on the Brahmos VLS at the fore ? The Barak 8 consumes a lot less under-deck space than a Brahmos VLS, so setting more Brahmos at the fore and Barak 8 at rear shouldn't be too much of trouble.

Even that L band radar is a relic of the past and can be eliminated.

Agreed. Probably will be replaced with the BEL RAWL-03 or the INDRA LTR-25 during MLUs.

 

[randomradio]

The whole RBU-6000 debate here has been done to death. The conclusions are the same always : There are some benefits to it, the Navy just upgraded it recently, so they won't be throwing it out anytime soon. The removal, if it is to happen, will start with large destroyers. The smaller frigates will continue with it(like the P-17A). The Vizag class will probably have it too.

Our ships have greater focus on anti-sub warfare, hence the greater importance on anti-sub firepower, including the 2 helicopters, heavyweight torpedoes etc. Naturally because our biggest threat in the IOR is submarines.

But we can make do without the RBU-6000 once we get our ASROC-equivalent up and running. With the addition of P-28/28A (as many as 12 in total), 16 anti-sub corvettes, SSNs, P-8I and MH-60R, we have to start prepping our frigates and destroyers for anti-surface and anti-air warfare now. Our future threat will start coming in from the Pacific from the next decade.

Speaking of empty spaces, I see a lot of real estate left on that Kolkata's deck anyway. Why not load that up first ? How about we move all the Barak 8 VLS to the rear(look at all that space there) and expand on the Brahmos VLS at the fore ? The Barak 8 consumes a lot less under-deck space than a Brahmos VLS, so setting more Brahmos at the fore and Barak 8 at rear shouldn't be too much of trouble.

Space will be made during MLUs.

And we need Barak both forward and aft or the mast will get in the way if you are aiming forward. It will become a major blindstop then. ASMs can be placed anywhere.

Agreed. Probably will be replaced with the BEL RAWL-03 or the INDRA LTR-25 during MLUs.

Actually, it's not even necessary. The MF-STAR can do everything on its own. The second radar is just old-think.

Of course, they are not gonna remove it from P-15A and B, but I hope they do better with P-18. Would be great if they stick 2 types of radars on a single mast instead.

 

[Gautam]

Alright we've gone massively off-topic but I can't help but continue.

Our ships have greater focus on anti-sub warfare, hence the greater importance on anti-sub firepower, including the 2 helicopters, heavyweight torpedoes etc. Naturally because our biggest threat in the IOR is submarines.

True.

But we can make do without the RBU-6000 once we get our ASROC-equivalent up and running.

The PDC of the SMART was mid 2021. We're past mid-2019, so less than 2 years left. With the first batch of Shyena LWT sent to Myanmar, we know the torpedo production line is up and running. Do you think they will be able to finish the project in time ? Also the guys on D. F. I. strongly believe that 650 km range is not a typo, its rather the intended range. What is your take on that ?

With the addition of P-28/28A (as many as 12 in total), 16 anti-sub corvettes

On the corvette front things got a bit too complicated for me recently. P-28 is the Kamorta class corvettes, 4 built & 3 in service. The last one will be commissioned this year.
What is P-28A ? What do you mean 12 in total ?
By anti sub corvettes, you mean the 16 Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft to be built by the CSL & GRSE ?
What about the 6 ship Next Generation Missile Vessels (NGMVs) project ? Some are saying that will be based on the P-28.

Space will be made during MLUs.

I do hope so. When are the MLUs expected to come ?

And we need Barak both forward and aft or the mast will get in the way if you are aiming forward. It will become a major blindstop then. ASMs can be placed anywhere.

Interesting point about the blind spot. Thanks.
Won't placing Brahmos on the rear cause problems for the helo hangers given the size of the Brahmos ?

Actually, it's not even necessary. The MF-STAR can do everything on its own. The second radar is just old-think.

Won't having an additional radar for volume scan reduce the workload on the primary radar ? I would be okay with it if the Kolkata had no secondary radar, but if you're going to have one how about a good one ?

Of course, they are not gonna remove it from P-15A and B, but I hope they do better with P-18. Would be great if they stick 2 types of radars on a single mast instead.

We don't seem to be too good at making masts. Look at the MF-STAR mast, its huge and still not an integrated mast.

 

[randomradio]

The PDC of the SMART was mid 2021. We're past mid-2019, so less than 2 years left. With the first batch of Shyena LWT sent to Myanmar, we know the torpedo production line is up and running. Do you think they will be able to finish the project in time ? Also the guys on D. F. I. strongly believe that 650 km range is not a typo, its rather the intended range. What is your take on that ?

Even if the missile is ready, it's going to take time to weaponise it. Who knows which ship will get it first? Maybe the ones in MLU, maybe a new ship. Maybe the upcoming ships are already prepped to get it.

As for the range, let's see when it actually comes out, it's not unrealistic. Particularly when air units are involved.

On the corvette front things got a bit too complicated for me recently. P-28 is the Kamorta class corvettes, 4 built & 3 in service. The last one will be commissioned this year.
What is P-28A ? What do you mean 12 in total ?
By anti sub corvettes, you mean the 16 Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft to be built by the CSL & GRSE ?
What about the 6 ship Next Generation Missile Vessels (NGMVs) project ? Some are saying that will be based on the P-28.

Kamorta class is a 12 ship project. P-28A is the next iteration. It's the same with P-15, P-15A and P-15B or P-17 and P-17A, possibly a P-17B at a later date. The sequence could be anything though.

Yeah, 16 ASW corvettes.

I have no idea what the NGMVs will look like.

I do hope so. When are the MLUs expected to come ?

Long time to go. Think 2030s.

Won't placing Brahmos on the rear cause problems for the helo hangers given the size of the Brahmos ?

It can't be done with the current design. I only meant to say that Brahmos can all be placed in the rear, but SAMs cannot, because of the mast.

Won't having an additional radar for volume scan reduce the workload on the primary radar ? I would be okay with it if the Kolkata had no secondary radar, but if you're going to have one how about a good one ?

Yeah, it's meant to reduce workload on the primary radar. But the MF-STAR can already track hundreds of targets on its own with greater accuracy than the L band radar.

And to top that, it's a digital radar and is GaN. I don't think it has an equivalent anywhere in the world today. So that L band is just sitting there.

We don't seem to be too good at making masts. Look at the MF-STAR mast, its huge and still not an integrated mast.

It is a psuedo-integrated mast, although it has only 1 main radar, and there are other more advanced designs around now. But it's a very good design in terms of how it reduced the need for so many radars. It's better than most contemporary western designs since we managed to put such a large radar on the highest point possible on a ship. It has all 4 arrays on the crown, so it's non-rotating. Plus the radar is capable of volume scan as well as fire control. It doesn't get better than that. Radars like SAMPSON have just 2 arrays and they rotate, so they are incapable of providing fire control.

 

[Austerlitz]

The admiral gorshkov is what i dream of when i see our next gen frigates and why im so frustrated by armament quantity of p17a and continued rbu presence in capital ships.
We need to get SMART done with and get a paketng seaspider like anti torpedo torpedo system combo to replace this shit.RBU should remain only on shallow water craft such as light frigates and corvettes.Talwars can have them.No sense to put them on over 5k tonne ships.
Well the kolkatas will fet thales replaced with indra ltr at mlu so thats a plus. Vishakapatnam,p17a and delhi mlu also getting them.

 

[Austerlitz]

For a future destroyer p18 i believe we should draw inspiration from the korean sejong the great class.Gold standard aegis destroyer at 11k tonnes full load .With a similar destroyer we would not need cruisers like 055.
Gorshkov armament should be benchmark for new frigate designs.

 

[BMD]

Latest diesel-electric sub for Russia’s Pacific Fleet takes to Baltic Sea for trials
This is the Project 636.3 first diesel-electric submarine built for the Pacific Fleet

© Alexandr Demyanchuk/TASS

MOSCOW, August 16. /TASS/. The Project 636.3 latest diesel-electric submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, which the Admiralty Shipyard is building for Russia’s Pacific Fleet, has taken to the Baltic Sea from St. Petersburg for shipbuilders’ trials, Navy Spokesman Captain 1st Rank Igor Dygalo announced on Friday.

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"During the shipbuilders’ sea trials, some of the submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky’s shipboard systems will be checked, including communications and hydro-acoustics," the naval officer said.

Before the submarine took to the sea, Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Nikolai Yevmenov heard the reports by the chiefs of Naval Main Command’s departments about the sub crew’s preparedness for the shipbuilders’ trials, the spokesman stated.

"The Pacific Fleet is receiving Project 636.3 new diesel-electric submarines under the program of actively renewing the conventional component of the Russian Navy’s subsurface force. The series of Project 636.3 diesel-electric submarines built for the Black Sea Fleet has shown its effectiveness and reliability in practice," the spokesman quoted Navy Chief Yevmenov as saying.

Diesel-electric submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky
Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko earlier reported that the Navy would get the submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky in the fourth quarter of this year.

This is the Project 636.3 first diesel-electric submarine built for the Pacific Fleet. It was floated out at the Admiralty Shipyard in St. Petersburg on March 28.

The Project 636.3 (‘Varshavyanka’) is referred to the third generation of diesel-electric submarines. The submarines of this type have been designed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau. They can develop a speed of up to 20 knots, have sea endurance of 45 days and a crew of 52 men. They can dive to a depth of about 300 meters. The submarines of this class displace over 2,000 tonnes in their surface position and about 4,000 tonnes under the water. Varshavyanka-class subs are armed with Kalibr cruise missiles.

The first series of six submarines for the Black Sea Fleet was under construction from 2010 to 2016. The first two subs for the Pacific Fleet have been named the Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and the Volkhov.

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1167331610615848961