S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

[Shan]

Hard day for S400 naysayers.

Acknowledging a good system especially if it does not have a huge marketing campaign behind it becomes difficult.

Make it shiny, pointy, flashy, add good camo, and make it sleek. If it is bland and does the work what's the point? - Average MIC fan.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Agree , When I go back in the history of this thread, I feel S400 would have taken a long breath and simply sat and smiled. I proved myself today after so many failure campaigns by the western media.


View attachment 45768

I was just going through the early days of this thread!!!!

The amount of criticism.. for the system, for modis decision and the strategy of PAF of being passive ! Talks about cost etc.. Now those all are suddenly gone. No sight of them in recent discussions.

And one more striking familiarity is that even the present situation is eerily similar. Both times Trump as prez. So, in hindsight.. both republican and democrats are same when it comes to India. One used USAID, other uses loudmouth tactics.

And from past experience, the only answer is to take a stand and maintain a sovereign foreign policy. It would've been different with RaGa since UPA was the epitome of imports and surrendering.. but current govts push for self reliance is materialising out in a fascinating manner and every day, it's importance is growing more and more.

We shall come out of this stronger too.

 

[Shan]

Russia will complete delivery of S-400 missile systems to India in 2026 - The Tribune

The USD 5.43 billion deal was formally signed on October 5, 2018, ignoring the threat of US sanctions.

www.tribuneindia.com

"Russia will complete the contract to supply India with five S-400 Triumph air defence systems in 2026. Four of these systems have been delivered to date, and the fifth will be delivered next year," a defence source was quoted as saying by the state-run TASS news agency.

 

[CATS @hunter]

Need a localised production of S400 ASAP, multiple squadrons of S400 on the western front, Will make the Pakistanis operate from deep inside Pakistan, Thier chances of any preemptive strikes become less,

But for the Chinese theater, we have to develop a unbreachable defence, AD-AH, kusha, s400, Aditya DEW, PAD,AAD 1&2, LEO sats

 

[Subgradewalker]

View attachment 46602

Russia will complete delivery of S-400 missile systems to India in 2026 - The Tribune

The USD 5.43 billion deal was formally signed on October 5, 2018, ignoring the threat of US sanctions.

www.tribuneindia.com

"Russia will complete the contract to supply India with five S-400 Triumph air defence systems in 2026. Four of these systems have been delivered to date, and the fifth will be delivered next year," a defence source was quoted as saying by the state-run TASS news agency.

Four units? When did the fourth one arrive?

View attachment 46602

Russia will complete delivery of S-400 missile systems to India in 2026 - The Tribune

The USD 5.43 billion deal was formally signed on October 5, 2018, ignoring the threat of US sanctions.

www.tribuneindia.com

"Russia will complete the contract to supply India with five S-400 Triumph air defence systems in 2026. Four of these systems have been delivered to date, and the fifth will be delivered next year," a defence source was quoted as saying by the state-run TASS news agency.

Four units? When did the fourth one arrive?

 

[Shan]

Four units? When did the fourth one arrive?


Four units? When did the fourth one arrive?

Good call. This report stated that it had. Apparently not?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1970457386201821200

 

[vstol Jockey]

This regiment is under delivery and the full system likely to be inducted by end Oct.

 

[Ashwin]

India looks to procure more S-400/S-500 air defence systems from Russia​

India looks to procure more S-400/S-500 air defence systems from Russia

The 2018 contract with Russia for 5 S-400 systems had a follow-on clause for 5 more. S-400 was described as a 'game-changer' for shooting down 5 Pakistan fighter jets during Op Sindoor.

theprint.in

The 2018 contract with Russia for 5 S-400 systems had a follow-on clause for 5 more. S-400 was described as a 'game-changer' for shooting down 5 Pakistan fighter jets during Op Sindoor.

 

[Subgradewalker]

India looks to procure more S-400/S-500 air defence systems from Russia​

India looks to procure more S-400/S-500 air defence systems from Russia

The 2018 contract with Russia for 5 S-400 systems had a follow-on clause for 5 more. S-400 was described as a 'game-changer' for shooting down 5 Pakistan fighter jets during Op Sindoor.

theprint.in

The 2018 contract with Russia for 5 S-400 systems had a follow-on clause for 5 more. S-400 was described as a 'game-changer' for shooting down 5 Pakistan fighter jets during Op Sindoor.

The only reason I can compheremd behind purchase of more S-400 before rest of the two units arrive, get security clearance and integrated.. is that Kusha system isn't progressing as efficiently as touted by DRDO.

While S-500 will require its own user trials and review.

 

[marich01]

The only reason

I would say if requirement is for like 30 of this type LRSAM system for the whole country, even with Kusha our armed forces can only afford ~ 20 units of this over a 20-25 year period as a whole pie. So 50-50 split of 10 unit S-400 & rest Kusha is more applicable. LRSAM is very pricey & need additional point defence protection itself. So you are looking at spiraling cost & trained manpower.
Moreover S-400 is proven, Kusha not so much yet. Since this type of product is high software feature centric along with long range detection tracking radar, algo etc dependent. There is no reason to think Kusha will offer the same level of ready made flexibility as a built first time kind of system. These are top end high tech savvy items, it takes decades of high level expertise to get there. Chinese are case in point.

 

[Ashwin]

The only reason I can compheremd behind purchase of more S-400 before rest of the two units arrive, get security clearance and integrated.. is that Kusha system isn't progressing as efficiently as touted by DRDO.

While S-500 will require its own user trials and review.

Kusha is just getting started to judge anything. Even US will take 5+ years to undertake such a huge program. By that time we can operationalise additional units of S400.

 

[Speedster1]

The only reason I can compheremd behind purchase of more S-400 before rest of the two units arrive, get security clearance and integrated.. is that Kusha system isn't progressing as efficiently as touted by DRDO.

While S-500 will require its own user trials and review.

I'd say the follow-on purchase of S400 is part of EP in anticipation of Op Sindoor 2.0. Kusha is essentjally building on proven tech. The interceptors themselves are Akash2 with minor changes + booster. The radars + BMC2 are derived from the BMD prog like Swordfirsh/LRR/VLRR.

Imo, S-500 would have a lot of overlap with PDV/AD-1/AD-2 + in-development hypersonic interceptors. Unless, we're getting classified ToT, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Kusha is just getting started to judge anything. Even US will take 5+ years to undertake such a huge program. By that time we can operationalise additional units of S400.

Will Russia even be able to deliever new orders on time vis a vis induction of Kusha. ? Enough to justify the purchases

Let's take a middle ground approach and say that first ( non prototype) Kusha unit will be inducted and operationalized in 2035-2040.

I'd say the follow-on purchase of S400 is part of EP in anticipation of Op Sindoor 2.0. Kusha is essentjally building on proven tech. The interceptors themselves are Akash2 with minor changes + booster. The radars + BMC2 are derived from the BMD prog like Swordfirsh/LRR/VLRR.

Imo, S-500 would have a lot of overlap with PDV/AD-1/AD-2 + in-development hypersonic interceptors. Unless, we're getting classified ToT, it doesn't make sense.

Orders with Russia was signed in 2018 and it's now 2025 with only 3 units delivered. The reason of Ukraine war and supply issues while valid doesn't mean that the war is gonna end or supply efficiency is set to improve.

With dwindling finances, constrained production due to disruption in supply chain, priority to their own forces, and increasing reliance on chinese supply chain.. how likely it is that (2+2) units can be expected to be delivered before kusha? 2 being pending order. Other 2 being amount of delivered units needed to have minimum logic for new purchases. And that won't justify the logic of filling the gap before kusha.. as that means all units delivered till then.

It might even send drdo scientist back into their position of mental comfort with assurances and onus from & on S-400& Russia.

Might as well study and reverse engineer the S-400 system by dedicating one out of next 2 units, if it helps in expediting Kusha.

 

[South block]

More long range Interceptors is a must...... Keep forcing Pakistani to fly low...... S-500 will give a cover up to 500 km ( whole width of napakland ) for non ballistic target....... Need to find a way for local production.

 

[Speedster1]

Will Russia even be able to deliever new orders on time vis a vis induction of Kusha. ? Enough to justify the purchases

Let's take a middle ground approach and say that first ( non prototype) Kusha unit will be inducted and operationalized in 2035-2040.


Orders with Russia was signed in 2018 and it's now 2025 with only 3 units delivered. The reason of Ukraine war and supply issues while valid doesn't mean that the war is gonna end or supply efficiency is set to improve.

With dwindling finances, constrained production due to disruption in supply chain, priority to their own forces, and increasing reliance on chinese supply chain.. how likely it is that (2+2) units can be expected to be delivered before kusha? 2 being pending order. Other 2 being amount of delivered units needed to have minimum logic for new purchases. And that won't justify the logic of filling the gap before kusha.. as that means all units delivered till then.

It might even send drdo scientist back into their position of mental comfort with assurances and onus from & on S-400& Russia.

Might as well study and reverse engineer the S-400 system by dedicating one out of next 2 units, if it helps in expediting Kusha.

True. However, Kusha is likely based on Isreali/Western system design philosophy via MRSAM/BMD. Work on Kusha seems to have advanced enough for the first test to take place in 2026.

Don't think there's much scope for RE of S-400. Russia will sell us as many as swe want. DRDO goes strictly by the books, unlike the Chinese who'll copy entire systems like Goalkeeper, Tor, Buk and S-300/400 and give them different names.

 

[marich01]

This follow on clause is usually time bound (valid up to multiple years) and inflation adjusted. For imported system can be valid for more than usual 24-36 months of domestic procurement clause (again inflation adjusted) but there is no clarity given on this part. It could be that the clause is retained for a long term 10 years option at additional cost if pursued later. But expecting a clause to be active anytime after you bought the system in 2015-2019 is kinda far fetched. Unless clarity is given over the time & length of this clause validity, its a non story. We are already past 5 years since contract signing, so inflation adjustment is a pre condition. That in turn calls for a new re-negotiated contract, not exercising an existing option.

 

[Subgradewalker]

True. However, Kusha is likely based on Isreali/Western system design philosophy via MRSAM/BMD. Work on Kusha seems to have advanced enough for the first test to take place in 2026.

Don't think there's much scope for RE of S-400. Russia will sell us as many as swe want. DRDO goes strictly by the books, unlike the Chinese who'll copy entire systems like Goalkeeper, Tor, Buk and S-300/400 and give them different names.

Can you please elaborate on the difference between design philosophy when it comes to AD/A2 Systems. I searched but couldn't find any satisfactory analysis. Or if you could provide any link which explains it.

As for R.E. , it shouldn't have to be a copy, but surely you can learn things by taking it apart piece by piece and studing it. From a perspective of knowledge which likely is very attractive to any competent scientist.

This follow on clause is usually time bound (valid up to multiple years) and inflation adjusted. For imported system can be valid for more than usual 24-36 months of domestic procurement clause (again inflation adjusted) but there is no clarity given on this part. It could be that the clause is retained for a long term 10 years option at additional cost if pursued later. But expecting a clause to be active anytime after you bought the system in 2015-2019 is kinda far fetched. Unless clarity is given over the time & length of this clause validity, its a non story. We are already past 5 years since contract signing, so inflation adjustment is a pre condition. That in turn calls for a new re-negotiated contract, not exercising an existing option.

Does the follow on clause time boundation starts from the signing of contract itself or from the delievery of ordered systems first?
Perhaps 50%, 75% delivered and then time starts?


Note: Since we are on thread for S-400 AD. Will our future evolved Sudarshan chakra incorporate EMP technology?

 

[marich01]

Does the follow on clause time boundation starts from the signing of contract itself or from the delievery of ordered systems first?
Perhaps 50%, 75% delivered and then time starts?


Note: Since we are on thread for S-400 AD. Will our future evolved Sudarshan chakra incorporate EMP technology?

It varies a bit with % also (ie repeat order in same terms within 18 months for certain % quantity of the current order), I think post delivery not sure 100%. For global OEM this option can be a long term option should both side agree.

 

[Speedster1]

Can you please elaborate on the difference between design philosophy when it comes to AD/A2 Systems. I searched but couldn't find any satisfactory analysis. Or if you could provide any link which explains it.

The difference is mainly in the level of integration. Until recently, Russian AD systems (esp naval ones like Shtil) were marketed as "multi-channel" vs "integrated". Meaning different radars for target acquisition and fire control. New gen systems like S-400 are exceptions, of course.

 

[Subgradewalker]

The difference is mainly in the level of integration. Until recently, Russian AD systems (esp naval ones like Shtil) were marketed as "multi-channel" vs "integrated". Meaning different radars for target acquisition and fire control. New gen systems like S-400 are exceptions, of course.

Ah! Thanks. Then would it be avalod to say that project kusha incorporates both design philosophy? Especially with wider number of platform?