S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

[Speedster1]

It has had a subpar performance during the RU-Ukr war. Seems to be RUMINT for now. We'll get to know in some time I guess.

Iirc, the Russians had filed a formal protest after Pantsir was eliminated from the SPAAGM contest. Later, the RfP itself was cancelled and an IDDM project was supposed to have been started.

I'd imagine the IA would eventually buy the same system the AF gets. So, the Russians might be getting a bigger deal than they'd hoped for. The selling point of S400 compatibility is flimsy to say the least.

Notice it follows the same pattern as the LMM deal with the Brits.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Pantsir wouldn't make any sense. Infact the role Pantsir plays, makes prioritising Indian systems over foreign a necessity or a prudent choice at the least.

If they are gonna license produce, that will nullify the whole push to QRSAM, VSHORADS and IADWS.

IADWS style system would fit much better instead of Pantsir. And since they have (assuming) already integrated S-400 within IACCS, addition of our own system shouldn't be impossible. It might be more effective than Pantsir.

Don't know what's going on the mind of IAF. They are already getting Rafale with LCA nowhere in sight.
Are our own systems that unappealing to them?

 

[South block]

Made this post a while back

they’re trying to counter low RCS drones & standoff munitions with a sensor setup that’s not built for that game....... Pantsir search radar is S-band, which already struggles to pick up VLO or micro UAV signatures, so even when it does get a hit, it’s usually late & with shaky track quality...... Then you’ve got the turret architecture..... the whole damn module has to slew around just to bring the narrow beam FCR onto that tiny target...... meaning the system wastes precious seconds just trying to “burn through” one direction while everything else stays blind......In a multi-axis saturation attack, that’s basically a death sentence ........your supposedly layered air defense system turns into a one-target-at-a-time whack-a-mole machine negating your advantage in missile numbers & the drones don’t even need to be stealthy, just small and coming from everywhere at once.

Better option would be to have something like Tor vertical launch with radar sensor setup like this

 

[_Anonymous_]

Made this post a while back


Better option would be to have something like Tor vertical launch with radar sensor setup like this

View attachment 49698

View attachment 49699

IMO for whatever it's worth, our systems be it VSHORAD or QRSAM are immature & would have to be integrated with C-UAS systems which considering our bureaucracy & procedures for trials re trials etc would take at least another 8-10 years before it materializes.

Hence this move . We could see the Pantsirs being protected by other IA & IAF ADS components already present in our inventory plus the three tiered ADS system of IACCS + AFNET as well as the C&C of the S-400 + Pantsir would or should prove a formidable network to penetrate.

Russian ADS in Ukraine didn't have these advantages which if Russia were operating from its own soil would bring in their networked ADS into play .

See it also as part of our grand transition program plus the fact that we're due to go up against China & Paxtan shortly . Otherwise we'd be following the 10 year procurement route.

Part of the price we pay for transitioning from foreign weapons system to indigenous ones meaning you win some, you lose some.

 

[Shan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022215241887555901

While it has improved over the years, the overall combat prowess of Pantsir is definitely debatable. Remember, "what air defense doing" originated thanks to this. Russia has out in a lot of work to rectify atleast some issues.- If the report is accurate, wonder on what basis IAF is seeking Pantsir specifically & not a competition. If it's for interoperability, I do wonder if IAF has pushed for similar indigenous synergies for our indigenous SAMs.- If this goes through, BDL is likely to play a major role imo.- However, I think Pantsir is not a system worth purchasing. IAF should push for a comparable indigenous system. We have all the required building blocks.- Ignore trolls, let's assume that IAF is actually proactive about indigenisation rather than just being passive about it (imo). How come we seldom see articles (media always cites IAF or MoD sources anyways) on how IAF is pushing for indigenous systems like we see for imports? Or are such moves not reported because of some bad PR strategy or some other reasons?- That said IAF acquiring QRSAM is great. Imo we can do SHORAD ourselves. But all should put the effort to make it happen.

 

[South block]

Pantsir getting hammered from drones in Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022616976992928066

 

[Aniruddha]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022215241887555901

IAF will be better off procuring more QRSAM systems to form an AD grid around the S-400 system when deployed.

Don't know what they are thinking with the Pantsir

 

[Speedster1]

Russia is throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. They are reportedly also offering the S-350 Vityaz (co-developed with SoKo under KM-SAM program)

Same pitch: point defence for S400. This system is roughly equivalent to MRSAM. Yet, the Russians are trying to push it *with full ToT*.

russia Offers India Rare S-350 Systems with Full Production Tech Transfer | Defense Express

Reports indicate russia may provide full technical know-how alongside the systems, complementing India's S-400 arsenal

en.defence-ua.com

Pantsir, S-350 may ultimately be tied to a larger integrated air and missile defence solution centered around the Voronezh long range early warning radar that India is reportedly interested in.

 

[Shan]

Russia is throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. They are reportedly also offering the S-350 Vityaz (co-developed with SoKo under KM-SAM program)

Same pitch: point defence for S400. This system is roughly equivalent to MRSAM. Yet, the Russians are trying to push it *with full ToT*.

russia Offers India Rare S-350 Systems with Full Production Tech Transfer | Defense Express

Reports indicate russia may provide full technical know-how alongside the systems, complementing India's S-400 arsenal

en.defence-ua.com

Pantsir, S-350 may ultimately be tied to a larger integrated air and missile defence solution centered around the Voronezh long range early warning radar that India is reportedly interested in.

I knew it. Why stop at the Pantsir? They want a share of whatever the MoD wishes to dole out for the AD grid. I can already see some outlets trying to push these to their limit with their "appreciative" coverage.

 

[Speedster1]

I knew it. Why stop at the Pantsir? They want a share of whatever the MoD wishes to dole out for the AD grid. I can already see some outlets trying to push these to their limit with their "appreciative" coverage.

The Russians probably want a piece of the Sudarshan Chakra prog. But between the Israeli Ultra radars, PDV/AAD and QRSAM, all our IAMD needs are covered.

Even if you assume DRDOs LRR prog is delayed, there's no case for Voronezh et al.

Unless ofc GoI wants to compensate Russia for stopping oil purchases(under US pressure) via mil acquisitions.

 

[South block]

Russia is throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. They are reportedly also offering the S-350 Vityaz (co-developed with SoKo under KM-SAM program)

Same pitch: point defence for S400. This system is roughly equivalent to MRSAM. Yet, the Russians are trying to push it *with full ToT*.

russia Offers India Rare S-350 Systems with Full Production Tech Transfer | Defense Express

Reports indicate russia may provide full technical know-how alongside the systems, complementing India's S-400 arsenal

en.defence-ua.com

Pantsir, S-350 may ultimately be tied to a larger integrated air and missile defence solution centered around the Voronezh long range early warning radar that India is reportedly interested in.

S-350 is actually a reasonable good buy & no it's not same as MR-SAM.... Range, speed, Maneuverability is much higher so are number of interceptors + S-400 in Indian arsenal already use the interceptors of vityaz System...... It would be wise to have a dedicated seperate AD system like S-350 vityaz to use 9M96E, 9M96E2 & free the S-400 to use only bigger missile of 40N6E & 48N6 family.

 

[babablacksheep]

The Russians probably want a piece of the Sudarshan Chakra prog. But between the Israeli Ultra radars, PDV/AAD and QRSAM, all our IAMD needs are covered.

Even if you assume DRDOs LRR prog is delayed, there's no case for Voronezh et al.

Unless ofc GoI wants to compensate Russia for stopping oil purchases(under US pressure) via mil acquisitions.

Israel

AI.

Israeli ultra-long-range and advanced radar systems, primarily produced by IAI

ELM-2090 Terra (Ultra & Spectra): A strategic-level, dual-band radar system comprising UHF and S-band arrays, designed for long-range detection of advanced threats.

These radars are known for using advanced AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) technology, offering superior tracking capabilities in crowded, high-threat, and electronically contested environments

The detection range of the ELM-2090 Terra/ultra system varies by its component radars, typically operating at strategic distances between 2500
and 3000 km


Russia

AI.

The Voronezh radar is a family of Russian-made, long-range early warning radars designed to detect ballistic missiles, aircraft, and space objects. As a critical part of Russia’s Missile Attack Early Warning System, these stations can monitor threats at distances of up to 6,000–10,000 kilometres

certain variants of the Voronezh radar—specifically the Voronezh-M—are capable of over-the-horizon (OTH) detection.




So israeli ultra despite being long range(2500-3000km) is not in the same category capabilities wise as voronezh radar(6000-10000km).

 

[Speedster1]

S-350 is actually a reasonable good buy & no it's not same as MR-SAM.... Range, speed, Maneuverability is much higher so are number of interceptors + S-400 in Indian arsenal already use the interceptors of vityaz System...... It would be wise to have a dedicated seperate AD system like S-350 vityaz to use 9M96E, 9M96E2 & free the S-400 to use only bigger missile of 40N6E & 48N6 family.

Apparently, we're buying the entire range of S-400 missiles from point defence 40km to LR 40N6. So Vityaz would be redundant, imo.

MRSAM itself ranges out to 100km+.(70km is typical DRDO obfuscation).

 

[Shan]

Apparently, we're buying the entire range of S-400 missiles from point defence 40km to LR 40N6. So Vityaz would be redundant, imo.

MRSAM itself ranges out to 100km+.(70km is typical DRDO obfuscation).

S-350 would be an unnecessary purchase imo. The same goes for the Pantsir. Of course, if there are reasons beyond defence needs...I would not be able to comment on those. MRSAM is network-integrated system and capable of chasing manoeuvrable targets. The edge is only for volume: 12 missiles per launcher vehicle for S-350.

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022717686250111456

 

[Shan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2022717686250111456

Plenty of such videos have been published by some accounts in the last few days.

Separately - If MoD wanted it could have developed a track based SPAAGM - Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun and Missile system. There are some contractors that could have led the project and delivered a prototype within a reasonable timeframe.

 

[South block]

 

[Aniruddha]

View attachment 49796

The person who clicked this probably had a Black Scorpio visit his/her house.

 

[Speedster1]

The person who clicked this probably had a Black Scorpio visit his/her house.

Desert camo is a refreshing change versus the standard IAF Tipnis grey.

 

[Aniruddha]

Desert camo is a refreshing change versus the standard IAF Tipnis grey.

True.
What I am curious to know however is what is a S-400 squadron in Desert camo doing in the jungles of Assam.