Once you get into the nitty-gritty of how things work at HAL, I think you will change your mind.
Once you get into the nitty-gritty of how things work at HAL, I think you will change your mind.
I know one person who worked there from 2000-2003 and he said sometimes Koti Harinarayana himself (
) would come to the HAL facility and almost beg the workers at HAL to do their part (this was before first flight of Tejas). He told me that there was at least then a lot of lethargy in the place which he thinks was first started by reservation entries into HAL and was even spread among GC ppl there. Now idk how much of this is accurate now after 25 years. Looking the way things are going I think maybe it's the same almost.In contrast I've heard that ppl at RCI are willing to work 24/7 many times for their respective projects from a person who worked there previously on Agni 5 programme. Now Ik fighter jets are much harder to make than nuclear missiles but still the difference in performance and track record between RCI and HAL is still glaring.
Basic incentives are still misplaced for a DPSU monopoly like HAL.
They don't care about results because user cant make them accountable. Regardless of whether they work or not, they will get paid, and their job is secure.
Even today when you see pictures of ALH or LCA production line you can see they skip basic engineering quality control practices.
Competition is "fixing" the OFBs by making them less relevant. We have to try everything we can to fix incentives, or else we will have to continue importing one way or another until kingdom come.
Mate, how is working 24/7 any better than not working at all? If employees are working 24/7 for their companies then it is equally bad. I have read several articles on overworking and toxic culture in DRDO but I don't know the accuracy of those articles. I am assuming you are talking about fighter jets specifically so, I haven't heard any news about issues regarding jet production lines but if you have then let me know.I know one person who worked there from 2000-2003 and he said sometimes Koti Harinarayana himself (
In contrast I've heard that ppl at RCI are willing to work 24/7 many times for their respective projects from a person who worked there previously on Agni 5 programme. Now Ik fighter jets are much harder to make than nuclear missiles but still the difference in performance and track record between RCI and HAL is still glaring.
I don't know how accurate your statement about the LCA production line is because I have read some tweets from employees of some defence firms and they have praised the quality of the production lines for the aircrafts, the complains are usually different but, I maybe wrong.
I won't trust Indian private firms like you do especially when I keep reading discouraging news about private firms regularly and I am not talking about working conditions here.
Monopoly is definitely bad but duplication of efforts should also be minimized and for India's size two competing Aircraft manufacturers can be maintained healthily like China has AVIC with two main subsidiaries Chengdu Aircraft Corp. (CAC) and Shenyang Aircraft Corp (SAC) and also other Xian aircraft corp, Shaanxi Aircraft Corp etc. If we want to go the PSU way then we should split them separately to foster some competition between them instead of single HAL make subsidiaries out of it, make the DPSU subsidiaries compete.
Or we can go the US way of IAF buying out the HAL and associated infrastructure but also leasing some of its facilities like how USAF leases its Aircraft Plants and some were even outright bought by private companies. This will keep the IAF in control of developments and help project easily and also reduce burden on private players making it easier for them to invest.
List of United States Air Force plants - Wikipedia
This plant of LM owned by USAF manufactures the F-35
United States Air Force Plant 4 - Wikipedia
While famous skunk works is located in this Plant with other private contractors.
United States Air Force Plant 42 - Wikipedia
Even in missiles ADE has been found lacking in Nirbhay compared to RCI. It is normal to find different labs having different standards in a large organization and after a time they become the culture of that lab. But periodically you should clear out and reset the non performing labs, but nothing like that happened in DRDO and no news is there on the supposed mega reforms in DRDO yet.I know one person who worked there from 2000-2003 and he said sometimes Koti Harinarayana himself (
In contrast I've heard that ppl at RCI are willing to work 24/7 many times for their respective projects from a person who worked there previously on Agni 5 programme. Now Ik fighter jets are much harder to make than nuclear missiles but still the difference in performance and track record between RCI and HAL is still glaring.
You can see in Bharat Shaktis on the shop floor episode of HAL and compare it with say TATA's C-295 assembly plant. There is no central HVAC in HAL Tejas assembly line, they have these large fans everywhere and floor itself did not look that great while for 5th gen aircraft the old school assembly HAL will not work, the tolerances required are crazy.
See this post to understand what I mean
Meanwhile US is making new investments and plants exclusively to manufacture 6th gen jets like this
Boeing starts work on new Phantom Works factory in St Louis | Aerospace Testing International
The Advanced Coatings Center in St Louis is part of future military aircraft production system
www.aerospacetestinginternational.com
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For strategic missile projects our people at RCI worked really hard and you can see the results. As I said before ik that fighter jets are much harder to develop than missiles but even then RCI has achieved world class success in missile arena and from anecdotal experience work culture is at least one driving factor behind RCI's success and HALs track record.
ADE has such a reputation that a former director of ADA was bemoaning the transfer of critical projects from ADA to ADE. As ppl say first impression is everything similarly the work culture and atmosphere that an organization starts off with is also important for determining it's future performance. Even in USA McDonnell Douglas civil aviation had a poor work culture which (according to Boeing employees own admissions) spilled over to larger Boeing organization after their acquisition and was a factor behind the 737 MAX mess. If you see McDonnel Douglas civil aviation was riddled with problems, their DC10was famous for problems.Monopoly is definitely bad but duplication of efforts should also be minimized and for India's size two competing Aircraft manufacturers can be maintained healthily like China has AVIC with two main subsidiaries Chengdu Aircraft Corp. (CAC) and Shenyang Aircraft Corp (SAC) and also other Xian aircraft corp, Shaanxi Aircraft Corp etc. If we want to go the PSU way then we should split them separately to foster some competition between them instead of single HAL make subsidiaries out of it, make the DPSU subsidiaries compete.
Or we can go the US way of IAF buying out the HAL and associated infrastructure but also leasing some of its facilities like how USAF leases its Aircraft Plants and some were even outright bought by private companies. This will keep the IAF in control of developments and help project easily and also reduce burden on private players making it easier for them to invest.
List of United States Air Force plants - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
This plant of LM owned by USAF manufactures the F-35
United States Air Force Plant 4 - Wikipedia
While famous skunk works is located in this Plant with other private contractors.
United States Air Force Plant 42 - Wikipedia
Even in missiles ADE has been found lacking in Nirbhay compared to RCI. It is normal to find different labs having different standards in a large organization and after a time they become the culture of that lab. But periodically you should clear out and reset the non performing labs, but nothing like that happened in DRDO and no news is there on the supposed mega reforms in DRDO yet.
You can see in Bharat Shaktis on the shop floor episode of HAL and compare it with say TATA's C-295 assembly plant. There is no central HVAC in HAL Tejas assembly line, they have these large fans everywhere and floor itself did not look that great while for 5th gen aircraft the old school assembly HAL will not work, the tolerances required are crazy.
See this post to understand what I mean
Meanwhile US is making new investments and plants exclusively to manufacture 6th gen jets like this
Boeing starts work on new Phantom Works factory in St Louis | Aerospace Testing International
The Advanced Coatings Center in St Louis is part of future military aircraft production system
HAL needs a direct private sector competitor, there's nothing much else to say there.
In fact, we need 2 private sector competitors.
In fact, we need 2 private sector competitors.
Mate I am not questioning either RCI or private sector, I am just saying that there are issues within these highly praised organizations. My main point was that the toxic work culture and overworked employees in these organizations are not any better than the lethargic employees in HAL.
Fair but I don't know how private firms will be able to improve this because they'll be getting the same budget from the GoI.You can see in Bharat Shaktis on the shop floor episode of HAL and compare it with say TATA's C-295 assembly plant. There is no central HVAC in HAL Tejas assembly line, they have these large fans everywhere and floor itself did not look that great while for 5th gen aircraft the old school assembly HAL will not work, the tolerances required are crazy.
See this post to understand what I mean
Meanwhile US is making new investments and plants exclusively to manufacture 6th gen jets like this
Boeing starts work on new Phantom Works factory in St Louis | Aerospace Testing International
The Advanced Coatings Center in St Louis is part of future military aircraft production system
Maybe but, private sector isn't a magic wand that'll solve all the problems. Rather reforms are needed in both HAL and DRDO whilst we develop our private sector to be able to compete with these organizations. Right now it feels like GoI isn't trying to change anything in HAL and DRDO, every year there'll be a committee report and no steps will be taken by the GoI.
This doesn't make me any confident that things will change in the near future with the private sector either.
Private sector will use foreign production and quality control processes, and the competition will force HAL to change.
That was always the goal of SPM. At least HAL will have a direct competitor due to MRFA in the fighter stream. And HAL has competitors in the transport and pretty soon in the business jet streams. We need at least one in helicopters.