Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

[liberalredditor]

chasing another aircraft carrier is foolishness as already our carrier fleet is underpowered, 22 rafales for vikrant and ancient mig 29k for vikramaditya

our target should be to cost effectively reduce the gap between plan and indian navy, we should not become "pheeling paraud indian army navy"
gap is huge, including subs and all warships, although the full fleet is not for indian side, but still we should target to reach 75% of them so that 2 front naval war is possible, our vls cells are already less in current destroyers

hope that p18 come out early and in huge numbers and long production line with iterative electronics and lru upgrades

#makeindiannavyevenmoregreat

 

[marich01]

Drydock is max 70k ton capacity. The repeat IAC order idea was floated and we heard that navy was considering it for some time, but no more word since. Since we do not know what projects navy will prioritise, the only other way we can get idea of IAC2 is via subsystems development. In this front we are yet to see credible EM launcher development work reaching maturity stage enough to launch a jet. Thereby if the subsystems are not ready, a super carrier plan will also not get sanctioned.

Its a good idea to order more capital ships in the meantime be it supersized Corvette/frigate or repeat batches of existing classes.

 

[Ginvincible]

chasing another aircraft carrier is foolishness as already our carrier fleet is underpowered, 22 rafales for vikrant and ancient mig 29k for vikramaditya

our target should be to cost effectively reduce the gap between plan and indian navy, we should not become "pheeling paraud indian army navy"
gap is huge, including subs and all warships, although the full fleet is not for indian side, but still we should target to reach 75% of them so that 2 front naval war is possible, our vls cells are already less in current destroyers

hope that p18 come out early and in huge numbers and long production line with iterative electronics and lru upgrades

#makeindiannavyevenmoregreat

You're right, another aircraft carrier at this time would be a waste, and honestly - TEDBF will end up like the Tejas - too little too late.

What India needs is to load up on as much A2/AD as possible at this point. Submarines, missiles, radars, torpedoes of all varieties, more missiles, as much persistent surveillance as it can muster, a dedicated rocket force, and did I mention missiles? India cannot hope to match the industrial and technological prowess of its opponents. India needs to become a porcupine. Someday it can evolve into a snapping turtle, and eventually a lion.

 

[randomradio]

south block aint sanctioning another aircraft carrier, they most probably are moving with a 75k ton super carrier, a vikrant reorder would only happen in a case where vikramaditya's operational conditions would hamper the national security

govt now will move with frigates corvettes and ssk and support fleet like tankers, minesweeper, landing dock etc, and rest funds will move towardds the next decades projects like p18, next carrier and its battle group, and most important of all iaf's squadron strength and army's artillery and tanks strength

A third carrier is necessary within a short time though. We need 24/7 presence at sea, and a second one erady to go out during emergencies. A large carrier won't come quickly enough.

So a second Vikrant will go through, it was chosen in lieu of the SSNs.

 

[marich01]

TED rechability study

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

TEDBF's real mission was to reduce the number of MRCBFs that India buys from 57 to 26. Mission accomplished! Now we can throw out the project and start a new one, incorporating stealth as a new requirement.

To accomplish its mission, the TEDBF did not need to be optimised.

TEDBF has been hardly optimized from future PoV. Entire world has moved forward except us.
> Our mistakes -
- make 5.5gen AMCA + 4.5gen TEDBF + 4.5gen MWF with same F414 engine. 1 sanction/delay = 3 projects impacted, which we're seeing today.
- not trying to negotiate for better thrust engines like AL-41, F-100/110 when F-15/16, Su-35/57 were pitched.
- not using engines w/o ToT for airframe R&D at least & result is decades of project delay. The engine part single-handedly delayed projects. We operate so many types of jets but how many of their engine ToTs & license we have?
- Ignoring fact that enemy SAMs/AAMs don't differentiate b/w AF & naval jet, won't get discount on threat to naval jets & not giving geometric treatment.
- Ignoring fact that Naval jet doesn't always strike -

- surface targets but also in AA mode,​

- or BIG surface targets only, but also small/medium targets ​

- Assuming usage of big weapons only (in beast mode).

Hence USA made custom sized weapons to fit in IWB of F-35C like -
- NSM
- JSM
- AGM-88G AARGM-ER
- AGM-84 SLAM-ER
- MAKO, etc



Reduced versions of some weapons can also made like -
- AGM-158 JASSM/LRASM
- SCALP-EG/Storm-Shadow
- Taurus KEPD

F/A-XX would likely have larger IWB.

Also, 1x F135 engine is equivalent to 2x F414 engines. which means AMCA & stealth TEDBF can also have such custom weapons.

Russia's Su-57 also has fin folding weapons like -
- Kh/X-59 Mk2 CrM
- Kh-69 CrM
- Kh-35E AShM
- Kh-38M & Grom-E1 AShM
- Kh-58 UShKE ARM
Whether Russia will make Naval Su-57 or not, it has demonstrated fundamentally or notionally that a Naval stealth Su-33 sized jet can be made with naval strike weapons. Ultimately something which can operate from Russian carriers will replace MiG-29 & Su-33.





So both AMCA & TEDBF can be tweaked for MEDIUM class stealth TEDBF
or
New HEAVY class jet can be made.

The following is a collage of approximate scaled diagrams of AMCA Vs TEDBF as per official dimensions which are identical, i shared this earlier also on 4th March, post#744 on page 38.
Additionally showing NOTIONAL depiction of AA, AG & mixed modes. On a short note, the IWB options can be made modular.



NOTE - there are 1000s of techies in DoD, so 1 engineering team can be more/less efficient/intelligent than other.
I wish my laptop supported 3D CAD S/w to explain better but we see that present TEDBF needs some more tweaking. I obviously can't expect all members to understand everything equally.
Capacity wise, beast mode will always be superior to stealth mode, but future primarily belongs to stealth. We're already into transition period since 1988-90. A stealth jet can function in non-stealth beast mode but non-stealth jet can't function in stealth when required.
By virtue of F-35C, even J-35, dimensions of AMCA & TEDBF, a tweaked TEDBF doesn't have to act always in beast mode.

And you think the stealth TEDBF will be ready at the same time as the second Vikrant?

> Naval jets also operate from naval air-bases on shore.
> Our ACs don't need to travel globally for world policing, but just defend our shores. So a compatible, future oriented AC needs to be sanctioned & made a.s.a.p. but it won't impact stealth TEDBF.
> Our BABU bureaucratic culture needs crack-down. Today IAF started complaining & PMO announced PPP for AMCA, tomorrow IN can start complaining & PPP can be announced for stealth TEDBF, etc. If India's highest population, 10s of 1000s of techies passing out every year, are not absorbed into industry then before a cross-border war, a civil war will impact us.
> Either ways, the stealth TEDBF has to be initiated a.s.a.p., this year itself IMO, no tea-talks & booze-brainstorming for years wasting time. We should get the missing tools, forge, press, etc a.s.a.p.
> The current 4.5gen TEDBF can be made as LSP till stealth TEDBF arrives b/w 2035-40. Engineering colleges teach some tech history also. We should always remember learning examples like X-35 Vs F-35 in 1990s & YF-22 re-designed in 3 months in 1987 & made in 3 years.

So now i would say that if AMCA or 4.5gen TEDBF is decided to be tweaked then more or less 60-70% of stealth TEDBF is already done, just some geometric treatment required & adjusting some components, like X-35 Vs F-35 & X-35 didn't have IWB.
Out-of-domain people should not panic by daily job of in-domain professionals.

 

[South block]

TEDBF need to be put in dustbin & every resource need to be concentrated on 5th & 6th generation fighter.... Including there deck based version.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

TEDBF need to be put in dustbin & every resource need to be concentrated on 5th & 6th generation fighter.... Including there deck based version.

Your sentence is confusing. It should rephrased as :
4.5gen TEDBF need to be put in dustbin & every resource need to be concentrated on 5gen TEDBF & 6gen IAF+IN fighter.

So in 2040+ era, 5gen AMCA & 5gen TEDBF will be backbone of IAF & IN & 6gen will be spearhead, 4.5gen will be broomers, moppers.

 

[RationalGuy]

south block aint sanctioning another aircraft carrier, they most probably are moving with a 75k ton super carrier, a vikrant reorder would only happen in a case where vikramaditya's operational conditions would hamper the national security

govt now will move with frigates corvettes and ssk and support fleet like tankers, minesweeper, landing dock etc, and rest funds will move towardds the next decades projects like p18, next carrier and its battle group, and most important of all iaf's squadron strength and army's artillery and tanks strength

Also we need more space based sats for targeting ships using our LRHASM and Agni P missiles. We need combo of missile and submarines based sea denial and aircraft carrier based sea control, both are important. Thats what PLAN end goal in SCS is imo.

 

[RationalGuy]

Your sentence is confusing. It should rephrased as :
4.5gen TEDBF need to be put in dustbin & every resource need to be concentrated on 5gen TEDBF & 6gen IAF+IN fighter.

So in 2040+ era, 5gen AMCA & 5gen TEDBF will be backbone of IAF & IN & 6gen will be spearhead, 4.5gen will be broomers, moppers.

If we make a PMO sponsored project for 6th gen involving ADA and private sector company (my wish is L and T or Tata) as designers and then the same private company as production partner then, provided it receives the same funding and support PMO gives for projects like Arihant, we could have a tailless single engine 6th gen interceptor by 2035. The tailless design will enhance stealth but problem will be engines. We need to do the foreign OEM deal for 6th gen VCE engine and have it ready in 10 years. That way it's in time to power both our AMCA Mk2 and the envisioned 6th gen I talked about. PMO should secretly sponsor and push such a development imo.

 

[_Anonymous_]

While the IN seems keen to develop Deck Based 5th Gen FAs which would function as the tip of the spear , would somebody be kind enough to enlighten us as to what would comprise the body of the spear ?

Or are we to understand that the same 5th Gen FAs will fulfill dual roles as both tip of the spear in its stealth avatar & fly with external weapons on its pylons in its non stealth avatar ?

USN will be operating its Super Hornets all through the 2030s only to replace it with the F/A-XX which incidentally has still not received government sanction . What that means is there's a question mark on this FA replacing the Super Hornets by the end of 2030 .

Whereas here we are a third world country or at any rate a third world Navy with pretensions of emulating a first world Navy ? Aside from the USN , it's only China which has a 5th Gen FA in the J-35 .

Going by how the IAF regards the J-20 , should the IN treat the J-35 the same or give it more respect than it deserves ? As it is we've got the Rafale M which is possibly the best 4.5 Gen Deck Based Naval FA . Do we need a 5th Gen FA program which would deliver us a FA in the mid 2040s ?

If yes & there are justifiable reasons for it , it brings me back to the original question - which FA will form the body of the spear ? Does this mean more Rafale M are to be inducted ?

Secondly , all this doesn't take into account a few factors namely the budget of the IN. Budgets traditionally have been the Achilles heel of all the branches of our armed forces , more so for the IN which is way down the pecking order in the heirarchy of the armed forces.

For a country with a GDP of 4 trillion USD we don't spend enough on our armed forces . And the budget certainly doesn't reflect the concerns of a nation sandwiched between two N armed neighbours both of whom are hostile to us & both of whom are in active collusion with each other to stymie our progress.

Add to this an apathetic process driven bureaucracy , a no good Raksha Mantri & a PM too stingy to spend .

Whereas a 4.5th Gen FA like the TEDBF in itself will be a fairly expensive proposition given the limited numbers the IN seeks ( ~ 60+) , will someone be kind enough to tell me how exactly is the IN going to justify a 5th Gen FA program given the limited numbers in the light of the reasoning offered in the previous two paragraphs.

In addition I'd also like to highlight the fact that typically the 5th Gen FA ought to be launched off an AC featuring a CATOBAR which in itself would be the function of the EMALS .

Typically an AC featuring these systems are powered by a N reactor for efficient operations but not necessarily so. Case in point - UK. At least the UK has its own electric propulsion system they've developed courtesy RR. We don't even have that .

Further we've no plans as of the present or the near future say upto the 2030s of building a ~ 70k class AC. Initial talk of constructing another Vikrant class sister AC which should've been a no brainer has also died down .

The INS Vikramaditya spends more time in refits than it does patrolling & we're given to understand it'd serve us till 2050 . Our EMALS is under development.

So in the light of this information ,where & how does the proposed 5th Gen FA program feature in all this ?

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

If we make a PMO sponsored project for 6th gen involving ADA and private sector company (my wish is L and T or Tata) as designers and then the same private company as production partner then, provided it receives the same funding and support PMO gives for projects like Arihant, we could have a tailless single engine 6th gen interceptor by 2035. The tailless design will enhance stealth but problem will be engines. We need to do the foreign OEM deal for 6th gen VCE engine and have it ready in 10 years. That way it's in time to power both our AMCA Mk2 and the envisioned 6th gen I talked about. PMO should secretly sponsor and push such a development imo.

We're on TEDBF thread.
But on a light note, as per my understanding of 6gen & brief, preliminary calculation of ATWR (Aircraft Thrust to Weight Ratio), for a 1 engine 6gen high supercruising manned fighter with ATWR = 1.1, we'll need at least 300 KN wet thrust class engine. 2 engine jet wil need 2x 205 KN engines.
For reference, F-35C's wet T/STOW = 191 KN/(9.8*25.6 tons) = 0.76 & that of F-22 is 312 KN/(9.8*29 tons) = 1.1

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

While the IN seems keen to develop Deck Based 5th Gen FAs which would function as the tip of the spear , would somebody be kind enough to enlighten us as to what would comprise the body of the spear ?

Or are we to understand that the same 5th Gen FAs will fulfill dual roles as both tip of the spear in its stealth avatar & fly with external weapons on its pylons in its non stealth avatar ?

USN will be operating its Super Hornets all through the 2030s only to replace it with the F/A-XX which incidentally has still not received government sanction . What that means is there's a question mark on this FA replacing the Super Hornets by the end of 2030 .

Whereas here we are a third world country or at any rate a third world Navy with pretensions of emulating a first world Navy ? Aside from the USN , it's only China which has a 5th Gen FA in the J-35 .

Going by how the IAF regards the J-20 , should the IN treat the J-35 the same or give it more respect than it deserves ? As it is we've got the Rafale M which is possibly the best 4.5 Gen Deck Based Naval FA . Do we need a 5th Gen FA program which would deliver us a FA in the mid 2040s ?

If yes & there are justifiable reasons for it , it brings me back to the original question - which FA will form the body of the spear ? Does this mean more Rafale M are to be inducted ?

Secondly , all this doesn't take into account a few factors namely the budget of the IN. Budgets traditionally have been the Achilles heel of all the branches of our armed forces , more so for the IN which is way down the pecking order in the heirarchy of the armed forces.

For a country with a GDP of 4 trillion USD we don't spend enough on our armed forces . And the budget certainly doesn't reflect the concerns of a nation sandwiched between two N armed neighbours both of whom are hostile to us & both of whom are in active collusion with each other to stymie our progress.

Add to this an apathetic process driven bureaucracy , a no good Raksha Mantri & a PM too stingy to spend .

Whereas a 4.5th Gen FA like the TEDBF in itself will be a fairly expensive proposition given the limited numbers the IN seeks ( ~ 60+) , will someone be kind enough to tell me how exactly is the IN going to justify a 5th Gen FA program given the limited numbers in the light of the reasoning offered in the previous two paragraphs.

In addition I'd also like to highlight the fact that typically the 5th Gen FA ought to be launched off an AC featuring a CATOBAR which in itself would be the function of the EMALS .

Typically an AC featuring these systems are powered by a N reactor for efficient operations but not necessarily so. Case in point - UK. At least the UK has its own electric propulsion system they've developed courtesy RR. We don't even have that .

Further we've no plans as of the present or the near future say upto the 2030s of building a ~ 70k class AC. Initial talk of constructing another Vikrant class sister AC which should've been a no brainer has also died down .

The INS Vikramaditya spends more time in refits than it does patrolling & we're given to understand it'd serve us till 2050 . Our EMALS is under development.

So in the light of this information ,where & how does the proposed 5th Gen FA program feature in all this ?

Body of spear will be 4.5gen broomers, moppers.

GoI stated money is not issue anymore & IN indicated 5gen, so he two might be cooking some plan which we're not aware of & it may not come to public knowledge so soon.
We are common citizens. All we can do is make educated guess, calculations, references, etc & be optimistic.

Just like F-47 NGAD was revealed suddenly but still partially, flying since 5 years, similarly F/A-XX will get revealed. And i've emphasized multiple times that if they can re-design YF-22 in 3 months in 1987 & make prototype in 3 years, then by leading computer tech & aero tech, they can make induct their 6gen in 2030s easily.
USN has 110+ F-35C delivered & 250+ planned, so these will supplement F/A-XX.

There's nothing to emulate anyone. Americans & Chinese are not aliens or helped by aliens. We have global CEOs but domestically we need to fix poor management, how? Ask GoI/PMO? And it is bcoz of J-35 & J-50 that we've to pump up ourselves.

Every force globally, even a smaller one in front of much bigger one, is obliged to stand & speak bravely & confidently to public. Hence IAF is obliged to be brave against PLAAF. But 1st rule of combat is not to underestimate adversary. So i don't think IAF takes PLAAF lightly, but some Youtubers, bloggers, non-techies, overconfident, overoptimistic, sentimental type people do. Numerical advantage will always be there + they're leading us in tech. Their exports could be crap, not domestic products. If we expect our AMCA to defeat all 4.5gen then China expects J-20/35 to defeat all 4.5gen too.

Rafale is GOOD jet, not GOD jet. It's airframe won't let it go beyond 4.5gen, that's the concept behind gen leap.
Purchasing from capitalist nation Vs making in socialist economy can create huge cost difference if controlled w/o corruption.
So for IN, 5.5gen TEDBF would be expected to be spearhead & Rafale-M the body.
But if N-AHCA is executed then 5.5gen TEDBF = N-AHCA (later upgraded to 6gen), it'll be spearhead, Rafale-M will be body.

A brand new AC should be nuclear powered IMO. IN is busy with subs & boats. When GoI/MoD + IN have funds they should initiate Nu-AC. Till then stealth TEDBF can operate from IN & IAF air bases.

But still if all these looks over-optimistic for most populous "3rd world nation" like us having our IT boom in 1990s, producing 10s of 1000s of tech graduates every year, then China will teach us a lesson with Arunachal Pradesh.
We will act lazy, w/o R&D & save our land, can't simply happen.
If we expect to defeat Pakistan then China expects to defeat us.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Body of spear will be 4.5gen broomers, moppers.

Yes & what are those going to be ? The MiG-29K is a sub optimal solution . It's on the way out. That's what the TEDBF was supposed to replace & the reason we got in 26 nos Rafale M.

With the TEDBF allegedly set to be upgraded to 5th Gen , what are our 4.5 Gen FA options ?

Ideally we ought to continue development on the TEDBF & get them certified FOC by 2035 pending mass production. We're still on target to achieve those T/Ls.

We should also sanction the project for construction of the sister AC to INS Vikrant either this year or the next & commence studies for a medium weight AC displacing ~ 65,000 tons powered by Electric propulsion & EMALS now such that we sanction construction by 2031.

Simultaneously we ought to commission studies on N-AMCA now such that we sanction the program by 2031.

However at the moment there's either decision paralysis or we are at a crossroads about where to go. The third option which I'm not in favour of is the IN will seek to convert the TEDBF from a 4.5 Gen FA program to a 5th Gen FA program & get anywhere between 26-52 additional Rafales to replace the MiG-29K with the additional numbers for operation aboard the upcoming replacement for INS Vikramaditya.

The reason I think this is the case is all their plans have gone into a limbo simultaneously - the replacement to the INS Vikramaditya by a similar class tonnage of AC as well as pushing the date forward for induction of the TEDBF to the late 2030s whereas it was supposed to clear CDR anytime now & be put up for approval before the CCS for budgetary sanction.

I suspect the IN is playing a wait & watch game to see how the MRFA saga plays out. If the IAF is successful in getting a G2G for 114 nos with MII , the IN will jump on to the bandwagon with their list of 26-52 nos .

GoI stated money is not issue anymore & IN indicated 5gen, so he two might be cooking some plan which we're not aware of & it may not come to public knowledge so soon.
We are common citizens. All we can do is make educated guess, calculations, references, etc & be optimistic.

Promises made by governments & political parties ought to be taken with a bucket full of salt. It's what they do which counts not what they promise. Talk is cheap. I say this especially in the context of defence procurement in this country.

Just like F-47 NGAD was revealed suddenly but still partially, flying since 5 years, similarly F/A-XX will get revealed. And i've emphasized multiple times that if they can re-design YF-22 in 3 months in 1987 & make prototype in 3 years, then by leading computer tech & aero tech, they can make induct their 6gen in 2030s easily.
USN has 110+ F-35C delivered & 250+ planned, so these will supplement F/A-XX.

We're not the US. Please don't have high hopes of us emulating the US in as far as aggressive time lines for naval aviation or in general for naval projects . They're at the bottom of our priorities. We're still very much a land & then air centric country . The navy is pretty much last in the list of our priorities.

There's nothing to emulate anyone. Americans & Chinese are not aliens or helped by aliens. We have global CEOs but domestically we need to fix poor management, how? Ask GoI/PMO? And it is bcoz of J-35 & J-50 that we've to pump up ourselves.

As of now we ought to concern ourselves with China. We're expected to go up against them not the US anytime soon. That's whom we ought to be benchmarking our projects & procurements to.

Every force globally, even a smaller one in front of much bigger one, is obliged to stand & speak bravely & confidently to public. Hence IAF is obliged to be brave against PLAAF. But 1st rule of combat is not to underestimate adversary. So i don't think IAF takes PLAAF lightly, but some Youtubers, bloggers, non-techies, overconfident, overoptimistic, sentimental type people do. Numerical advantage will always be there + they're leading us in tech. Their exports could be crap, not domestic products. If we expect our AMCA to defeat all 4.5gen then China expects J-20/35 to defeat all 4.5gen too.

Agreed.

Rafale is GOOD jet, not GOD jet. It's airframe won't let it go beyond 4.5gen, that's the concept behind gen leap.
Purchasing from capitalist nation Vs making in socialist economy can create huge cost difference if controlled w/o corruption.
So for IN, 5.5gen TEDBF would be expected to be spearhead & Rafale-M the body.
But if N-AHCA is executed then 5.5gen TEDBF = N-AHCA (later upgraded to 6gen), it'll be spearhead, Rafale-M will be body.

Not in favour of the Rafale M replacing the TEDBF as I pointed out earlier. Both the 4.5th & 5th Gen FA solutions should be in house. The Rafale M was supposed to be a stop gap solution to cater immediately to the issue of availability of the MiG-29K as the TEDBF would take time to be realised. We should stick to the original thought process .

A brand new AC should be nuclear powered IMO. IN is busy with subs & boats. When GoI/MoD + IN have funds they should initiate Nu-AC. Till then stealth TEDBF can operate from IN & IAF air bases.

Once again I don't think the MoD will favour too many experimentations at the cost of the exchequer.

Ideally we ought to have mapped out both the AC & FA complement for the next 50 years complete with propulsion systems which'd go into it as well as the generation of FAs to be inducted.

Just to give you a perspective - we need 2 AC in each category beginning with the Light Weight AC weighing in at ~ 45,000 tonnage of displacement with STOBAR launch mechanism , which is where we are today.

We need to go in for the Medium Weight AC weighing in at ~ 65,000 tonnage of displacement with EMALS assisted CATOBAR launch mechanism , staggering construction by 5 years beginning in 2031 with the first in the series being powered by electric propulsion followed by N propulsion for the second AC whose construction we must launch by 2036.

The air complement of both these ACs must be a combination of 4.5th Gen & 5th Gen FAs though they may begin operations with 4.5th Gen at least as far as the initial of the 2 ACs are concerned.

Similarly we need to plan for the Heavy Weight AC weighing in at ~ 85,000 tonnage of displacement in the 2030s such that they commence construction in 2041 & 2046 respectively. This must be accompanied by studies for the 6th Gen FA program launched simultaneously in the 2030s such that by 2040 we commence development on it . And so on ...

Like every Navy , ideally the IN must have Plan A & Plan B unlike plans for all the 26 letters of the English language which is what the case is today , the reason being as simple as lack of budget plus the Navy being low on the list of priorities.

Hence the constant chopping & changing with increasing frequency every year on the part of the IN.

But still if all these looks over-optimistic for most populous "3rd world nation" like us having our IT boom in 1990s, producing 10s of 1000s of tech graduates every year, then China will teach us a lesson with Arunachal Pradesh.
We will act lazy, w/o R&D & save our land, can't simply happen.
If we expect to defeat Pakistan then China expects to defeat us.

Unfortunately that's the way things seem primed at the moment.

 

[randomradio]

Weapons like JSM and AARGM-84 have been developed for smaller powers against tactical targets in Russia. They are not usable against the PLA, especially in the oceans or strategic targets in Russia. The Americans have bombers for that, we don't have anything.

The IN needs weapons in the 1000-2000 km class for tactical use which do not fit inside WBs. And due to the primary need to protect IOR and not penetrate static A2/AD systems, the IN is fine with 4.5th gen jets since their primary use is weapons delivery.

This map would help explain the need for long range.


And naturally, what's more important is a sensor network. The IN is working on a maritime satellite constellation with the French, and this can be combined with the IAF's global AMTI/GMTI network for joint operations. In order to fully utilize this network, we will eventually need supersonic bombers with missiles in the 2500-4000 km class under the IAF, which we can get from the Russians after 2035, either via import or joint development. ACM Arup Raha has already hinted towards purchasing the Tu-160M2, and Russia officially offered it last year.

But for now, 1500 km or more versions of LR-LACM, Brahmos, and LRAShM are sufficient to "act without contact." An upcoming hypersonic CM too.

PLAN needs another 15 years to develop alliances to actually become a multi-ocean threat. Alternatively, they can do a Russia and try and develop all-nuclear CBGs, but that will still take 15 years. That's 2040+.

So stealth is pointless right now because the opportunity for using stealth doesn't arise in such situations. There may never be any fighter vs fighter engagements until and unless PLAN is willing to operate very close to India, ie less than 1500 km from coastlines and islands containing air bases, which would deeply involve the IAF too.

 

[Speedster1]

Our quest for LR maritime bombers has been a long one. In the early 2000s, there were persistent rumors that the IN was getting Backfire bombers (as a secret component of the Gorshkov deal).

For a time, even FAS listed Tu-22M3s as being in India's inventory. But as we now know, it was all a hoax. Russia may simply not have had enough to spare at the time.

Tu-160 is an interesting prospect. For one, it has re-entered production. But it is much higher on the totem pole (as a strategic delivery platform) than Backfire or a Chakra for that matter.

Russia may not be too comfortable sharing the bird's ew/sensor secrets. Count on Uncle Sam and China to do their bit to scuttle any deal. Imo, kitting out some C-17s as ALBM/hypersonic CM/BGV carrier (palletized launcher a la Rapid Dragon) can be an interim solution. Risky, yes. But worth a try.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Yes & what are those going to be ? The MiG-29K is a sub optimal solution . It's on the way out. That's what the TEDBF was supposed to replace & the reason we got in 26 nos Rafale M.

With the TEDBF allegedly set to be upgraded to 5th Gen , what are our 4.5 Gen FA options ?

Ideally we ought to continue development on the TEDBF & get them certified FOC by 2035 pending mass production. We're still on target to achieve those T/Ls.

We should also sanction the project for construction of the sister AC to INS Vikrant either this year or the next & commence studies for a medium weight AC displacing ~ 65,000 tons powered by Electric propulsion & EMALS now such that we sanction construction by 2031.

Simultaneously we ought to commission studies on N-AMCA now such that we sanction the program by 2031.

However at the moment there's either decision paralysis or we are at a crossroads about where to go. The third option which I'm not in favour of is the IN will seek to convert the TEDBF from a 4.5 Gen FA program to a 5th Gen FA program & get anywhere between 26-52 additional Rafales to replace the MiG-29K with the additional numbers for operation aboard the upcoming replacement for INS Vikramaditya.

The reason I think this is the case is all their plans have gone into a limbo simultaneously - the replacement to the INS Vikramaditya by a similar class tonnage of AC as well as pushing the date forward for induction of the TEDBF to the late 2030s whereas it was supposed to clear CDR anytime now & be put up for approval before the CCS for budgetary sanction.

I suspect the IN is playing a wait & watch game to see how the MRFA saga plays out. If the IAF is successful in getting a G2G for 114 nos with MII , the IN will jump on to the bandwagon with their list of 26-52 nos .



Promises made by governments & political parties ought to be taken with a bucket full of salt. It's what they do which counts not what they promise. Talk is cheap. I say this especially in the context of defence procurement in this country.



We're not the US. Please don't have high hopes of us emulating the US in as far as aggressive time lines for naval aviation or in general for naval projects . They're at the bottom of our priorities. We're still very much a land & then air centric country . The navy is pretty much last in the list of our priorities.



As of now we ought to concern ourselves with China. We're expected to go up against them not the US anytime soon. That's whom we ought to be benchmarking our projects & procurements to.


Agreed.


Not in favour of the Rafale M replacing the TEDBF as I pointed out earlier. Both the 4.5th & 5th Gen FA solutions should be in house. The Rafale M was supposed to be a stop gap solution to cater immediately to the issue of availability of the MiG-29K as the TEDBF would take time to be realised. We should stick to the original thought process .




Once again I don't think the MoD will favour too many experimentations at the cost of the exchequer.

Ideally we ought to have mapped out both the AC & FA complement for the next 50 years complete with propulsion systems which'd go into it as well as the generation of FAs to be inducted.

Just to give you a perspective - we need 2 AC in each category beginning with the Light Weight AC weighing in at ~ 45,000 tonnage of displacement with STOBAR launch mechanism , which is where we are today.

We need to go in for the Medium Weight AC weighing in at ~ 65,000 tonnage of displacement with EMALS assisted CATOBAR launch mechanism , staggering construction by 5 years beginning in 2031 with the first in the series being powered by electric propulsion followed by N propulsion for the second AC whose construction we must launch by 2036.

The air complement of both these ACs must be a combination of 4.5th Gen & 5th Gen FAs though they may begin operations with 4.5th Gen at least as far as the initial of the 2 ACs are concerned.

Similarly we need to plan for the Heavy Weight AC weighing in at ~ 85,000 tonnage of displacement in the 2030s such that they commence construction in 2041 & 2046 respectively. This must be accompanied by studies for the 6th Gen FA program launched simultaneously in the 2030s such that by 2040 we commence development on it . And so on ...

Like every Navy , ideally the IN must have Plan A & Plan B unlike plans for all the 26 letters of the English language which is what the case is today , the reason being as simple as lack of budget plus the Navy being low on the list of priorities.

Hence the constant chopping & changing with increasing frequency every year on the part of the IN.



Unfortunately that's the way things seem primed at the moment.

> I never said Rafale-M should replace TEDBF but -

The current 4.5gen TEDBF can be made as LSP till stealth TEDBF arrives b/w 2035-40.

Rafale-M being currently purchased would fulfil whatever its purpose is.

> I'm fine with transforming any of the 2 models - 4.5gen TEDBF or AMCA.

> What is so complicated about future AC & FA? Nu-AC + EMALS-CATOBAR + 5.5gen TEDBF upgradable to 6gen, that's it.
- I don't wanna get into displacement & money, let GoI & IN figure that out. I'll comment only technically.
- STOBAR doesn't accelerate the jets, relies on ramp so it becomes challenge for bigger/heavier aircrafts.
- China is planning for 6 ACs by early 2030s. 3-4 it'll need for South China Sea conflict. It has major conflict with us over Arunacha Pradesh, so i think it may send only 1 AC in Bay of Bengal. So we should have 2 ACs to handle China + Pakistan, 2 for Arabian Sea & IOR, but nuclear IMO as fossil fuel is very precious.
- In Electric propulsion, from what electricity is produced? Nuclear, Diesel? But if our shore airbases suffice then fine.

> If GoI don't fulfil most of their promise then we'll definitely suffer against China bcoz 2000s, 2010s are gone. there can be civil unrest overthrowing the govt. or not electing it again.

> Indian IT industry largely caters to West. Having worked in MNCs what i see is that we Indians on an average have tech brains but lag in management skills. So i have to keep high hopes & be optimistic no matter what our fate is. Hopes keeps us happy & stable. Being hopeless deteriorates our personality, surrounding & all aspects of life.
Rest is up to GoI how it prioritizes army, navy, AF.

> I never said we should prepare against USA. I said they are not aliens, just humans like us but they pushed themselves more than others bcoz R&D at some point succeeds after trial & error.

> Countries, small or big, who don't make or arrange weapons in right time, have suffered, are suffering & will suffer. That's natural, nothing different for our nation. we've already suffered 1000+years of invasion, occupation, slavery, looting, disintegration. GoI & citizens should think - Again we wan't that in this millennium? Actually some powers around world have plans to repeat history against us.

> In USA also during ATF & JSF programs, there were opposers who said "this is too much", "That overkill not needed", " F-15/16/18 are enough", etc, etc. For example in 1990s ATF documentary, program manager Sherman Mulin counters ATF negators saying "The big weakness in their arguement is they are making a statement about world conditions today & what the threats are today. The real issue is what capability you want for 2025 & 2030. People who say you don't need this, they think the world is not going to change in next 20 years & that is a hell of an assertion".




After this, PAUL METZ, a highly decorated test pilot, the only one to fly both YF-22 & 23, said that adversaries are also developing jets at parity with F-15 & 18 & if they have skilled crew then USA'll have a tough time with current generation.



NOTE - The screenshots are just for prudence otherwise 100s of 1000s of techies across the country are qualified to comprehend & validate various things.

But still after 30 years also some people not ready to understand that -
- all types of platforms & weapons are made w.r.t. size, range, speed, guidance, payload, fuel, performance, etc.
- New types of targets can come up any time. The jet design should anticipate future threats & upgrades in its scope.
- Many weapons are made commonly for army &/or navy &/or AF. This affects aircraft design.
- sword/shield both aspects develop with time. No threat discount to naval jets.
- ideally a 5/5.5gen jet would sneak & destroy 4/4.5gen jet before the later detects former. The last thing they'll hear is RWR/MAWS beeps. So 4.5gen jets if put on frontline, may become source of security breach.
- Brahmos, Kinzal kind of BIG AGMs cannot become criteria to negate future stealth naval fighter bcoz there are so many aspects & use cases of a combat jet. Otherwise India will never ever get stealth naval jet till eternity.
- Moreover, Brahmos is about high stand-off range, while stealth enables to sneak closer, hence a smaller AGM with shorter range suffice.

> But still, tehnically, a Su-33 sized stealth naval jet can carry Brahmos type weapon on centerline, with special retractable attachments not compromising stealth after launch. The following drawing is made by Russian guy with username "paralay" on other forums.


If mechanical engineers can make a 50% bigger jet with bigger strong landing gears & longer AC then BIG weapons can be carried internally.
So a stealth naval jet with 8 AAMs + Brahmos is technically possible but may not be feasible.



Anyways, when IN finally indicated 5gen TEDBF the it is matter of time & engine.

 

[randomradio]

Our quest for LR maritime bombers has been a long one. In the early 2000s, there were persistent rumors that the IN was getting Backfire bombers (as a secret component of the Gorshkov deal).

For a time, even FAS listed Tu-22M3s as being in India's inventory. But as we now know, it was all a hoax. Russia may simply not have had enough to spare at the time.

Tu-160 is an interesting prospect. For one, it has re-entered production. But it is much higher on the totem pole (as a strategic delivery platform) than Backfire or a Chakra for that matter.

Russia may not be too comfortable sharing the bird's ew/sensor secrets. Count on Uncle Sam and China to do their bit to scuttle any deal. Imo, kitting out some C-17s as ALBM/hypersonic CM/BGV carrier (palletized launcher a la Rapid Dragon) can be an interim solution. Risky, yes. But worth a try.

It's about the timeframe. We are not gonna buy any today. Serial deliveries are expected to begin in 2027, so we can wait until the early 2030s to place an order. By 2035, Western and Chinese political and economic influence will have become irrelevant to India. We will become an economic pole.

C-17 is fine for use over land, but not for sea strike. It looks like a barnhouse on radar, while the Tu-160's RCS is similar to a Tomahawk, and it's supersonic.

 

[Speedster1]

It's about the timeframe. We are not gonna buy any today. Serial deliveries are expected to begin in 2027, so we can wait until the early 2030s to place an order. By 2035, Western and Chinese political and economic influence will have become irrelevant to India. We will become an economic pole.

C-17 is fine for use over land, but not for sea strike. It looks like a barnhouse on radar, while the Tu-160's RCS is similar to a Tomahawk, and it's supersonic.

Unless the PAK-DA prog succeeds, I don't see Russia parting with Tu-160. Even if it did, it would be a highly sanitized version with key capabilities restricted.

The IAF has a history of using transports as bomb trucks. Iirc, they've even used An-32s in that role not so long ago. C-17 is wide enough to carry and deploy large dia ALBM/hypersonic weapons via the rear ramp. They can stand off from the target, shoot and scoot. Not an ideal solution, but it could work.

And Tu-160 is a swing-wing, 4-engined giant designed in the 80s. It's RCS is much larger than Thawk.