Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

[randomradio]

You're not making sense, you know.

Why so? The IAC-2 is going to be designed based on which aircraft wins the tender. The carrier aviation complex cannot be designed willy-nilly, it needs to be designed around the aircraft. The same with the CATOBAR and arrestor wires. Otherwise, after you have designed it for a hypothetical aircraft, you will have to spend a buttload of money just to modify it later. No navy is going to do that.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Why so? The IAC-2 is going to be designed based on which aircraft wins the tender. The carrier aviation complex cannot be designed willy-nilly, it needs to be designed around the aircraft. The same with the CATOBAR and arrestor wires. Otherwise, after you have designed it for a hypothetical aircraft, you will have to spend a buttload of money just to modify it later. No navy is going to do that.

Isn't it possible for one to consider broad parameters of 2-3 aircraft & go for design considering the biggest & heaviest of them . Needless to say this is assuming all the contenders are in the same class & fit differ too much from each other on dimensions & weight.

How did the Adm Gorshkov /INS Vikramaditya come into being? There weren't any MiG-29Ks when the hull was floated nor if memory serves me right was the MiG-29K the aircraft of choice for the IN. The project itself was delayed by a decade & Russia literally blackmailed IN into opting for the MiG-29K .

 

[randomradio]

Isn't it possible for one to consider broad parameters of 2-3 aircraft & go for design considering the biggest & heaviest of them . Needless to say this is assuming all the contenders are in the same class & fit differ too much from each other on dimensions & weight.

Can you fit an iPhone case on a Samsung phone? This is like our discussion about MDL equipment and OEM equipment for sub construction. If you want to build the Arihant in the Scorpene line, then you gotta replace all the Scorpene specific equipment.

The aviation facilities complex by itself is not expensive, relatively speaking, but it is very, very time consuming to design, build and test one. Just the design stage took 6 years. For Vikrant, it took 17 years to fully design and integrate one. It became one of the primary reasons why the Vikrant was delayed.

One of the biggest questions now is if the arrestor gear is actually capable of handling Rafale/SH. We definitely know the elevator on Gorky cannot handle either aircraft. And we know the Vikrant's elevator can only safely handle the SH for now. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

How did the Adm Gorshkov /INS Vikramaditya come into being? There weren't any MiG-29Ks when the hull was floated nor if memory serves me right was the MiG-29K the aircraft of choice for the IN. The project itself was delayed by a decade & Russia literally blackmailed IN into opting for the MiG-29K .

Mig-29K first flew in 1988.

 

[Saaho]

I don't think so.
Boeing and Dassault have a good knowledge of their respective plane and of the naval operations. All two said that it is possible to use their beast without catapult, but with a load penalty. The real question is "what penalty for each ?".

From what I hear, rafale does not fit our elevators.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Fine, I'd take you on. Apart from the elevator & arrestor hooks, what exactly are the other parameters that go into consideration when designing an aircraft carrier for a particular type of aircraft. You may elaborate your point using the example of INS Vikramaditya.

Regarding the OEM supplied toolkit, jigs & fixtures, instead of a single like of production if I choose to have two lines, how long will it take for the same to celebrate delivered assuming I already have a trained crew to execute the work in place.

I thought we were in agreement that irrespective of whether the Elevator or the arrestor hook system is capable of handling the Hornets or the Rafale M, the only aircrafts going into it will be the MiG -29K. Were the MiG-29K part of the offer to India along with the Adm Gorshkov since the beginning or was it a later development. Your views are solicited @vstol Jockey

Can you fit an iPhone case on a Samsung phone? This is like our discussion about MDL equipment and OEM equipment for sub construction. If you want to build the Arihant in the Scorpene line, then you gotta replace all the Scorpene specific equipment.

The aviation facilities complex by itself is not expensive, relatively speaking, but it is very, very time consuming to design, build and test one. Just the design stage took 6 years. For Vikrant, it took 17 years to fully design and integrate one. It became one of the primary reasons why the Vikrant was delayed.

One of the biggest questions now is if the arrestor gear is actually capable of handling Rafale/SH. We definitely know the elevator on Gorky cannot handle either aircraft. And we know the Vikrant's elevator can only safely handle the SH for now. There are a lot of unanswered questions.



Mig-29K first flew in 1988.

 

[randomradio]

Fine, I'd take you on. Apart from the elevator & arrestor hooks, what exactly are the other parameters that go into consideration when designing an aircraft carrier for a particular type of aircraft. You may elaborate your point using the example of INS Vikramaditya.

Regarding the OEM supplied toolkit, jigs & fixtures, instead of a single like of production if I choose to have two lines, how long will it take for the same to celebrate delivered assuming I already have a trained crew to execute the work in place.

I thought we were in agreement that irrespective of whether the Elevator or the arrestor hook system is capable of handling the Hornets or the Rafale M, the only aircrafts going into it will be the MiG -29K. Were the MiG-29K part of the offer to India along with the Adm Gorshkov since the beginning or was it a later development. Your views are solicited @vstol Jockey

Everything is different. The tools are different, the ammunition used is different. All need different racks and containers. There are hundreds of such containers. There is no standardisation between American, French and Russian aircraft. Or, for that matter, Indian aircraft.

It took 15 years for the Russians to develop the AFC for Vikrant.

 

[Lolwa]

I

No, the SH's radar has much lower range than the Rafale's radar.

The US won't sell the Growler to India. At best they will only sell a Growler-lite, which is just the aircraft, without the EW suite. And developing and equipping our own EW suite will cost too much. Not to mention, IAF is going for dedicated EW aircraft based on business jets, so the Growler is pointless to India, also less capable in comparison to a business jet.

If we are to use our own EW suite, then basing it on the MKI is a far superior option. The MKI already comes/coming up with new gen low, mid and high band jammers.

The Growler is only useful when operating from a carrier, otherwise business jets are better. The USAF are also going for business jets.
It's Official, the USAF's Next Jamming Plane Will Be a Gulfstream BizJet

Such aircraft have a lot of fuel, are very fast, and carry a lot more people and equipment.

Rafale doesn't need Growler support.

I don't understand how is growler pointless to India. Plus the americans would happily sell us the growler . If the Australians can buy it so can we and Growler is not F35 apart from a super powerful jamming capability it doesn't have any real unique technology which could effect the Muricans in an way. The jammers will be imported and not produced in India. An order of 12 growlers through FMS would be good. Even if we go with rafale m by growlers would still be good. Considering both the Pakistanis and Chinese take EW,Cyber seriously unlike us Indians. And if you think growler is not required by India I don't understand how are they planning to counter or atleast match the dedicated Chinese EW platforms like the J15d, J16d . The rafale is a good ac but the spectra has its limitations. Spectra can never match a dedicated platform like growler. In that sense navy having f18 doesn't seem to be a bad choice. And the IN is the only arm which might actually end up working with the Americans. We won't be seeing the IA or IAF having any "interoperability" with NATO in the foreseeable future . The IN seems the best candidate.

 

[randomradio]

I

I don't understand how is growler pointless to India.

Because there are better aircraft for the job.

Plus the americans would happily sell us the growler .

Not what you think.

If the Australians can buy it so can we and Growler is not F35 apart from a super powerful jamming capability it doesn't have any real unique technology which could effect the Muricans in an way.

Australians are buying Growler Lite. No jammers, only ESM. The actual Growler with full capabilities is not for sale.

Our version of Rafale is far superior to Growler Lite.

The jammers will be imported and not produced in India.

The jammers are not for sale. The current set of jammers on Growler are not even in production. You can bet the NGJ will also not be sale.

Considering both the Pakistanis and Chinese take EW,Cyber seriously unlike us Indians. And if you think growler is not required by India I don't understand how are they planning to counter or atleast match the dedicated Chinese EW platforms like the J15d, J16d . The rafale is a good ac but the spectra has its limitations. Spectra can never match a dedicated platform like growler. In that sense navy having f18 doesn't seem to be a bad choice. And the IN is the only arm which might actually end up working with the Americans. We won't be seeing the IA or IAF having any "interoperability" with NATO in the foreseeable future . The IN seems the best candidate.

I have no idea why the Growler is so highly overestimated. The current one is quite outdated and the future one is not as advanced as one believes, it's just a standoff jamming aircraft.

The MKI with SAP-14 can do the same as the current Growler, but with better transmitter hardware.

 

[Bon Plan]

Plus the americans would happily sell us the growler . If the Australians can buy it so can we

Australia is member of the big five. India not. That change everything.

What kind of Growler may be offered to India? A full spectrum one or a restricted one? Possibility to freely upgrade the signal database or not? Possibility to use it as India want or not (ask UAE or Egyp about that point)?

 

[Lolwa]

Because there are better aircraft for the job.



Not what you think.



Australians are buying Growler Lite. No jammers, only ESM. The actual Growler with full capabilities is not for sale.

Our version of Rafale is far superior to Growler Lite.



The jammers are not for sale. The current set of jammers on Growler are not even in production. You can bet the NGJ will also not be sale.



I have no idea why the Growler is so highly overestimated. The current one is quite outdated and the future one is not as advanced as one believes, it's just a standoff jamming aircraft.

The MKI with SAP-14 can do the same as the current Growler, but with better transmitter hardware.

Can you give the link for mki performance of sap 14.
When it comes to Sukhoi it's ew capabilities aren't discussed much

 

[randomradio]

Can you give the link for mki performance of sap 14.
When it comes to Sukhoi it's ew capabilities aren't discussed much

There's not much in open source, no different from the AL-99.

What we do know is the SAP-14 is a generation ahead in comparison and is used to deal with L, S and some C band threats.

 

[Gautam]

 

[Nikhil]

good news

View attachment 16270

This is the thing I want to see in IAF colour before AMCA. Tejas with power

 

[Ashwin]

New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years

New Delhi: Buoyed by the success of trial landings of the Tejas-N fighter on board the Navy aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has given the go ahead for the development of a twin engine made-in-India fighter jet.

NDTV has learnt that the governing body of ADA, the principal designer of the Tejas fighter, now in squadron service with the Indian Air Force, has discussed the indigenous development of the new fighter in a meeting chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and attended by the Navy and Air Force Chiefs on 22 May. Following this meeting, the Operational Requirements (ORs) for the new fighter were issued by the Integrated Headquarters of the Ministry of Defence.

Development of the new fighter jet comes at a time when the government announced a series of structural reforms in the Defence sector under the "Atmanirbhar" or self-reliance goal which is meant to result in India dramatically cutting down on its defence imports.

Based on the Tejas fighter, the new Navy fighter is meant to supplement MiG-29s.

The prototype of the new fighter-jet, designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers, INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant, is meant to fly within six years with induction of the fighter within a decade.

The fighter, plans for which were first reported on NDTV in January, is a twin-engine evolution of Tejas-N prototype which has been indigenously developed and extensively test-flown.

The Tejas-N programme culminated with a series of "arrested landings" and take-offs from INS Vikramaditya off the Goa coast where two prototypes of the jet were able to successfully land on the carrier in January by using its arrestor hook to snare steel wires spread across the deck of the ship. This allowed the fighters to decelerate from approximately 244 kmph (the landing speed) to a standstill in approximately two seconds in a distance under 90 metres, within the length of the deck of INS Vikramaditya.

Those involved in the design and development of the new Indian fighter, an advanced variant of the single-engine Tejas-N, say that they have benchmarked the performance characteristics of the jet to Boeing's F/A-18 E/F "Super Hornet", in service with the US Navy and the Marine Rafale, deployed on the French Navy aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. They say the new jet may imbibe technologies being developed for the IAF's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) but will not be a stealth fighter in the same class.

At least three variations of the design of the new fighter are being studied presently and Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) tests and wind tunnel modelling will ensure the optimum shape of the fighter to match its projected operational capabilities. It's still unclear whether the new fighter will be a tail-less delta platform, similar to the IAF's LCA Tejas fighter or, for that matter, feature canards, a small forewing placed ahead of the main wing of the aircraft to aid manoeuvrability.

The new fighter, once inducted, is meant to supplement and ultimately replace the Indian Navy's fleet of MiG-29K fighters presently in service on board the INS Vikramaditya. A high-performance jet, the MiG-29K has been plagued with serviceability issues in Indian Navy service. The new indigenous fighter is designed to be more reliable. Those close to the project have told NDTV that they expect the new fighter to be able to be armed with at least six air to air missiles with an operational endurance of approximately two hours.

The project to develop a twin engine deck-based fighter (TEDBF) reflects a maturity and confidence in the development of the Tejas fighter jet upon which the new fighter will be based. On May 27, the Indian Air Force operationalised its second Tejas fighter jet squadron after first inducting the jet in 2016. Multiple variants of the Tejas based on additional capabilities are being progressively inducted. The most advanced variant of the fighter for the IAF, the Tejas Mk-2 is expected to be inducted by 2025. The new fighter being developed for the Navy is being classified as an altogether different fighter and is expected to be superior to the IAF's Tejas Mk-2 in several respects, once developed.

 

[Nikhil]

They should get it flying and inducting in next 4 to 5 years max and start concentrating resources on AMCA.

 

[AbRaj]

I agree with most points but the reason super hornet is an interesting choice is because of growlers that might come later as well as the engine similarity to our Tejas otherwise it's a fat POS which can't fly or dogfight. The radar is also pretty lame even though it is claimed to have a higher range than rafale's.

Also for the LHD I hope we end up buying the f35b's an expensive and impractical idea but will give us a major capabily boost. We could by 24 f35 B's and convert 2 of the LHD's into semi aircraft carrier role while the rest of two will stick to normarl LHD roles. Converting all 4 for aircraft carrier role in my opinion is not a bad idea but let's see

LOLwa

 

[Kane]

First Flight In 6 Years

Time and again, we fall for such over optimistic timelines and later blame ADA for delays.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Time and again, we fall for such over optimistic timelines and later blame ADA for delays.

This is nothing but earning pension for next two generations for the children of ADA scientists. I had posted in detail about how this airframe design itself is unfit for deck operations and we also discussed the issue of unsuitability of canard designs for deck operations. i just do not know on what basis ADA is persisiting with Canard design.

 

[Nikhil]

This is nothing but earning pension for next two generations for the children of ADA scientists. I had posted in detail about how this airframe design itself is unfit for deck operations and we also discussed the issue of unsuitability of canard designs for deck operations. i just do not know on what basis ADA is persisiting with Canard design.

so what to do then?

 

[Ashwin]

Time and again, we fall for such over optimistic timelines and later blame ADA for delays.

Its not an issue in this case. Mig-29Ks have enough life left.

If you go by the recent noises, AMCA timelines have been pushed. ADA can now concentrate on LCA mk2 and TEDBF.