General, it’s none of your business
- Thread starter Tatvamasi
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That is why the Indian Army Unit concerned, incidentally a PVC Unit (want me to give the home city of the Commanding Officer, whose unit got a Unit Citation for the excellent work and who was recommended for the prestigious Higher Defence Management Course but quit the fauj for greener pastures, at a high point in his career), crossed the border occupied the area claimed by Chinese and were involved in a shoving match as the Chinese tried to move in?
That was the failure? That they pre-emptively moved in, and not reacted once the Chinese moved into the area? Or the failure because the unit moved in only once it was clear Chinese were preparing to move and not when the Chinese Military Commander thought of giving the order?
Gems ....
That is why the Indian Army Unit concerned, incidentally a PVC Unit (want me to give the home city of the Commanding Officer, whose unit got a Unit Citation for the excellent work and who was recommended for the prestigious Higher Defence Management Course but quit the fauj for greener pastures, at a high point in his career), crossed the border occupied the area claimed by Chinese and were involved in a shoving match as the Chinese tried to move in?
That was the failure? That they pre-emptively moved in, and not reacted once the Chinese moved into the area? Or the failure because the unit moved in only once it was clear Chinese were preparing to move and not when the Chinese Military Commander thought of giving the order?
Gems ....
What do you mean by crossed the border, Indian army is already across border, and that's Bhutanese land. This is not the first time Chinese moved in, you know that very well what I am saying, and this time they literally moved in very close. The citation and applause was given for crisis management not prevention. Ask about useless DMI. Had it not been for the central agencies who informed ITBP, the chaps would been sitting ducks.
Sometimes it is best to be quiet about things one remains unaware about. Selective info is a norm even in defence forces.
ITBP in Sunnyvale-Nathang-Woodcock?
You've got to be kidding, right?
Do you know the time it takes to move from Dokala to the point permitted by Indians for Chinese to patrol? Our forces were mobilized & waiting when they came to push deeper. Troops from Halwara moved in to beef up the location further.
How could that be achieved so quickly, a force sufficiently large to not only check but also block Chinese was already acclimatized & positioned? Tis against an enemy which has troops already stationed in high altitude, acclimatized but own reinforcements in less than 9000 ft (and requiring 6 days acclimatization) because of 1st JWG agreement on drawdown of troops which saw the Kupup Brigade (responsible for Chumbi Valley - Tri-Junctiom) move down?
Beyond this I can't speak .. but .. laughable claim
Although I don't agree with @screambowl , there's the issue of incursions in AP. Besides, the nearly 5000 sq kms we've lost to Chinese nibbling since probably the early 90's . Isn't that why they were encouraged to do what they did?
The general has every right to talk about anything in India. Or his nationality also became dubious after CAA?
Nope. He has every right to talk for the army in India as it's the final instrument of enforcement answerable to the civilian government unlike in Paxtan where it's the only instrument of enforcement answerable to none except itself and whose civilian government it selects.
Btw how's the Sharia implementation project coming up in Manchester.
You think the location is only visible from the above mentioned spots and not any where else? ITBP was informed because of a reason because DMI was caught with their pants down.
Sir even if you start from Silliguri by 0600 hrs by 2200 hours you will reach the location with 2 hours break. I have lived in that region. It takes 3 hours from gangtok to reach the border.
And you really don't need a lot of acclimatization for 9000ft it's not that high for civilians leave military. Military man should not be vulnerable to severe asphyxiation below 10000ft( 3000m). The Chiense had already constructed roads to reach the exact plateau, DMI was still sleeping. The mobilisation happend when they were just 2km from Indian position and few meters already on the plateaue. That's very late.
Obviously you have to applause soldiers who went there to stop Chinese, it's not their fault. But DMI is a useless department.
True, general was right in questioning violent protesters.
That said, in India, we do go overboard in trying to limit role of army in civil life, unlike a certain nation where armed forces run the largest businesses supplying any and everything from oatmeal to television.
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Much ado about nothing. The General has not done anything wrong while highlighting what leadership is all about and in that he used the recent events to emphasis his views. While undergoing Crew resource Management training for Kingfisher Arlines in 2005, I was asked to deliver a lecture on Leadership and I used Gandhi and Hitler in the lecture in the same frame.
That is something which we have discussed a bit earlier too. Dokalam stand off this time was probably the third time that India pushed back. But only second time we were willing to go to war over.
First being the Sumdorong Chu incident, then the Chumar and now Dokalam. Only in the first and the last were we willing to go full on ahead.
Chinese are like a school bully. The day you confront them and refuse to back down, they will find a way to back down as they have no guts to fight. A bully uses only threats and no power. He knows that even if wins after being mauled, his bullying will come to an end forever.
You have no clue, do you?
That is the axis of advance! What will ITBP do there? And have you traversed that route?
And ITBP mobilized army?
I see. So now the operational controls have reversed? And North Sikkim formations are responsible for East? Just askingSir. Travelling for sight seeing and pouring in troops to carry out combat operations is different.
There is a 6 day acclimatization requirement. And Zuluk is one point, 17 Mile was the other.
Bhai, physiology na padhao mujhe, Guyton/Katzung authors will be left jobless (@satya ). Acute Mountain Sickness, High Altitude Cerebral Edema, High Altitude Pulomonary Edema are the first and very quick deblitating effects of high altitude above 9000 ft. You loose troops by scores immediately, upon mild exertion, what to talk of carrying 20 kg gear with ammunition and weapons and climbing up rock faces/ice walls/steep inclines, as may be the case. I wonder why didnt we court martial the whole of Indian Army in 1999 as they waited to acclimatize troops before launching attacks. Oh wait, as per you, the whole of Indian Army leadership is already useless. I forgot.
Indian armed forces are not bloody fools that they have madatory Stage 1 acclimatization of 6 days for troops operating in 9000-12000 Ft ASL, Stage 2 (additional 4 days) for 12000 to 15000 ft ASL and Stage 3 (additional 4 days) for above 15000 ft.
Your logic must surely be forwarded to all of the GoI and MoD. We are wasting thousands of crores simply carrying out studies under DIPAS (Defence Institue of Physiolgy & Allied Sciences) , Delhi, creating Siachen Battle Schools, Snow Leopard Battle School and hundreds of Acclimatization points, maintaining administrative support & infrastructure to ensure acclimatization is carried out, not to mention COs being taken to task for failure to ensure 100% compliance.
Bhai, Dokala gaye ho?
The area only had transitory Chinese presence since 1990. But they now 'suddenly' have permanent structures. You think Army did not tell the GoI?
In 1993, one member here led his team across to prove that the Chinese have M-11 missiles in the region. They got the photographs from the site itself. The GoI sat and did nothing.
The problem is not of information, the problem is lack of action on the information.
You have chicken from the top most downwards. Babus & politicians wet their pants. Army can not take initiatives which have potential to escalate into an all out war.
It is easy to shoot the messenger sir.
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@screambowl
We have seen our leadership, the civil one, always back out of a fight. Be it in Brasstacks, or Checkerboard. Be it in Kargil or Parakaram. Be it post 26/11, or even post Gurdaspur/Pathankot/Uri, everytime the military leadership has told the political leadership to take a call. Everytime they backed out.
Chumar, 2013, we had the Chinese surrounded. Scores of them. We could have created a major embarassment by capturing them. Ladakh Scouts had moved in, more were being pushed in. SF had landed, as did VIKAS. MMS chickened out.
It is very easy to cast aspersions without knowing the whole picture.
We saw this happen in Mumbai when MARCOS were told to stand down as they prepared to move in, we saw this in IC 814 hijacking and we will continue to see it.
The common notion in MoD, speak to any Babu, is that we can not fight prod the dragon, we cant fight them.
And that is the end of it. No capacity building, no measures to meet the threat. Instead ,further subversion of our capability so that we have to face the 'we can not fight them' everytime they push us.
We have seen our leadership, the civil one, always back out of a fight. Be it in Brasstacks, or Checkerboard. Be it in Kargil or Parakaram. Be it post 26/11, or even post Gurdaspur/Pathankot/Uri, everytime the military leadership has told the political leadership to take a call. Everytime they backed out.
Chumar, 2013, we had the Chinese surrounded. Scores of them. We could have created a major embarassment by capturing them. Ladakh Scouts had moved in, more were being pushed in. SF had landed, as did VIKAS. MMS chickened out.
It is very easy to cast aspersions without knowing the whole picture.
We saw this happen in Mumbai when MARCOS were told to stand down as they prepared to move in, we saw this in IC 814 hijacking and we will continue to see it.
The common notion in MoD, speak to any Babu, is that we can not fight prod the dragon, we cant fight them.
And that is the end of it. No capacity building, no measures to meet the threat. Instead ,further subversion of our capability so that we have to face the 'we can not fight them' everytime they push us.
Then my sincere apologies. I can not meet his physiologic capabilities. Although I do have polycythemia as a long term effect from my extended stints in high altitude with Hb of 17.1 which helps me to run long distances easily due to enhanced oxygen carrying capacity.