Project 18, Next Generation Destroyer (NGD) : News and Updates

bille ka vut said:
View attachment 36686View attachment 36687View attachment 36688didnt see this posted here so..
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I think these are just for representation purpose..... Actually design would probably vary a lot.
 
At last year's Navy Day press conference, they gave a timeline of at least 5 years for P-18 to move from design to contract stage and around 10 years for delivery. But they did say it will be in the 10K ton displacement range and have fully indigenous combat systems.

The broad contours of the sensor and weapons fit are somewhat known:

LRMFR 6m dia flat panel AESA radar (possibly superstructure mounted like Aegis)
LRLACM
Hypersonics?
Brahmos 800km
Full suite of BMD and AD missiles from AD-1/2/Kusha/MRSAM/VLSRSAM/VSHORAD, CUAS etc.
Possible laser/DEW - 10KW laser apparently in the works for naval applications
Indigenous 127mm? (Kalyani?)
Indigenous 35mm CIWS? (Kalyani?)
HWT: Varunastra/Shakti
Sonar: HUMSA-NG++?
SSR- Scanter
Integrated mast: Possible design shown in some expo earlier
IEPS: MT-30?
Towed sonar: ?
 
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You can see why NGD would take time if they intend to fit something like AD1 AD2 in it. These 2 are bmd system with at least 1 or both stages of 1400-1500mm rocket motor, esp AD2 end part 1700 mm. That is like launching K-4 A-4 kind missile from the deck, quite crazy from safety pov. I mean Brahmos firing looks formidable from the deck, just imagine such bmd stuff going off the deck next. The ship has to be very sturdy capable of handling the power of such high end hypersonic systems. Zircon or even K15 is nothing compared to a bmd article. AAD ship based like Anvesh is ok, high end exo bmd , kinda crazy idea to put on a destroyer ? Rather have a dedicated bmd ship.
 
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marich01 said:
You can see why NGD would take time if they intend to fit something like AD1 AD2 in it. These 2 are bmd system with at least 1 or both stages of 1400-1500mm rocket motor, esp AD2 end part 1700 mm. That is like launching K-4 A-4 kind missile from the deck, quite crazy from safety pov. I mean Brahmos firing looks formidable from the deck, just imagine such bmd stuff going off the deck next. The ship has to be very sturdy capable of handling the power of such high end hypersonic systems. Zircon or even K15 is nothing compared to a bmd article. AAD ship based like Anvesh is ok, high end exo bmd , kinda crazy idea to put on a destroyer ? Rather have a dedicated bmd ship.
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True. AD-1, AD-2 are massive missiles. They are roughly our equivalent of US GBI interceptors.

So perhaps, a Kusha/XR-SAM/ER-SAM derivative will make it on-board P-18.

Though I don't see India going for a dedicated BMD ship like Japan's ASEV which is now expected to get multi-role capability itself, including Tomahawk/local Japanese LACM.

The cost would be a major sticking point.

OTOH, the US Zumwalt class DDG is getting large dia VLS for HGV (wave rider?) There's an emerging requirement for hypersonic interceptors too.

That class weighs in at about 13000t displacement iirc. Quite close to P-18 projected size.
 
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I have a gut feeling that AD-1 and AD-2 won't be going onboard NGD because of their dimensions. Project Kusha will act as Anti ASBM for the Navy.
 
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Speedster1 said:
True. AD-1, AD-2 are massive missiles. They are roughly our equivalent of US GBI interceptors.
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I dont think BMD phase 2 is such big missile. US GBI are a different class of missile defending the continent. AD-1 and AD-2 will be more like SM-3 B2 or Arrow 3 more mobile not launched from silos.

Project 18 will have Kusha based interceptor which will be similar to SM-6 of USN. Navy requirement is more towards AshBMs not conventional BMs.

CleanShot 2024-11-15 at 11.17.45@2x.png
 
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Ashwin said:
I dont think BMD phase 2 is such big missile. US GBI are a different class of missile defending the continent. AD-1 and AD-2 will be more like SM-3 B2 or Arrow 3 more mobile not launched from silos.

Project 18 will have Kusha based interceptor which will be similar to SM-6 of USN.
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yes, PDV mk2 ASAT missile is more similar to GBI but still smaller than GBI
 
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Asterion Moloc said:
yes, PDV mk2 ASAT missile is more similar to GBI but still smaller than GBI
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Correct, even there we know the location of the target before the launch. Its not dealing with a 10,000 km ICBM.

 
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Ashwin said:
AD-1 and AD-2 will be more like SM-3 B2 or Arrow 3 more mobile not launched from silos.
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You're correct. They'll be closer to Aster-30 and SM-3 respectively as per an infographic shared by DRDO. Can't find it right now.

Fatalis said:
Yep, definitely fan art.
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It looks like more like a Kirov + Arleigh Burke hybrid with a large fore deck VLS 'farm' and radars that look very similar to US SPG-62 which is part of Aegis combat system. No way we are getting that unless we sign up for Aegis itself.

I think Aegis/Mk41 was on offer to us earlier but we chose Elta-2248 MF-STAR instead.

I suspect that overall P-18 will turn out to be closer to a Type-055 than a German F-127/A-400. We are generally more conservative when it comes to warship design.

But there is a clear trend worldwide towards cruiser-class ships with deep draft for hypersonic/ASBM/BMD weapons. Everyone from the Brits, Italians, Germans, SoKo, Japan are working on them.
 
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Parthu said:
Interesting tid bits from this promotional video of Next-Generation Combat Management System (ostensibly intended for NGD and NGF programs):


Could this be a conceptual render of the 10,000-13,000 ton NGD, unofficially known as the Project-18 DDG?

View attachment 24847

View attachment 24848

View attachment 24849

Few observations:

  • This is definitely Fincantieri-assisted design. Lots of similarity between this and the Italian Navy DDX concept (pic below), but there are key differences.
  • 72 VLS up front...another farm is present amidships, but I'm not entirely sure if its the same size but looking smaller due to perspective or if it's really a smaller farm. Either way, it would have 48-72 cells in the back for a total of 120-144 Universal VLS cells for SAMs, LACMs, smaller ASCMs, ASROCs etc. This is likely the same UVLS that was reported as being under development by DRDO.
  • They seem to have gotten rid of the BrahMos UVLM launchers (most likely the future BrahMos-II hypersonic missiles would have required the same or similar sized ones) and instead moved to 8 x inclined launchers for the SSM armament. It's yet unclear if the rear VLS farm is a 'modular' block which could be swapped for one equipped with large VLS for outsize articles (like hypersonics or SMART anti-sub missiles), such as what's intended for US Navy's DDG(X).
  • There is no visible secondary radar/volumn search radar anywhere. This could be an indication that the radar mast depicted here could be housing a multi-band radar setup (the LRMFR is already in testing on INS Anvesh) that can do both jobs within a single integrated radar housing, similar to what's on the Zumwalt-class.
  • The arrangement of exhaust funnels is unique and a lot can be inferred i.e. they are 100% moving away from Zorya-Mashproekt turbines and toward Rolls Royce MT30. MoUs have already been signed as previously reported, along with a joint development contract for customized IEP intended for warm-water applications between GE & BEL.

This is all of course considering this render is indeed somewhat indicative of the direction NGD/NGF are taking...if this turns out to be just a representative render, well then,...

Thanks to @Ashwin for finding.

@randomradio @vstol Jockey @Amarante @Gautam

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Japanese ASEV ship design:
1741406056021.png
The ASEV will also feature a massive radar. AN/SPY-7-ASEV radar panels are so big that the Japanese have had to mount the radar on the superstructure & not on the top of a mast.

Rough estimate of various naval radar sizes:


1741406457805.png

This is my concern with the P-18 design as shown:
1741407006279.png
The LR-MFR is bigger than the AN/SPY-7-ASEV & probably heavier too. Yet, the P-18 design wants to see it mounted atop a mast. Design is a continuation of the P-15A/P-15B/P-17A lineage.

Compare the size of the MF-STAR with the LR-MFR. The LR-MFR is >2 times the size of the MF-STAR.

By a simple extrapolation, P-18 will probably be anywhere between >2 the size of the P-17A to >2 the size of P-15B. So, around 13, 500 -15, 000 tons.

At that size if you want to have a power to weight ratio similar or at least close to IN's other destroyers/frigates you will need 4 RR MT-30 gas turbines in a COGAG setup (very similar to IAC-1's propulsion unit).

P-18s are going to cost >USD 2 billion per ship. 🥲
 
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Well if they are making ship launched versions of K-15 derivative in conventional role (not to mention the currently shown BM-04 , Pralay 9 meter vs 10.2 meter BM-04) and intend to place the same shipborne versions onto the future ships , then compared to current or even the upcoming gen ships these NGD would be way more robust as well as needing long range radar like that? This is even discounting the supposed ship based BMD roles that would need to be available once the phase 2 land versions are well proven and production cleared like the AAD that is under trial from ship too.

So in comparison, see the Jap bmd ship estimates , ours won't be too far off esp if indi % is lesser than 75%

1741415906866.png

 
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If the dual panel config (as fitted on INS Anvesh) is chosen, we could see 2 separate arrays mounted on fore and aft 'citadels' to take care of any stability concerns.

1741423527355.png

In any case, the design purpoted to be P-18 is based on the Italian DDX (look at the big caliber guns (76mm?) positioned amidships)

The IN may have used it as a placeholder in that video presentation on next-gen CMS.

The actual design will likely be very different from what we've seen in the past. Also, superstructure mounted arrays are becoming standard across the world. NGD will likely feature them too.
 
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Gautam said:
Japanese ASEV ship design:
View attachment 41436
The ASEV will also feature a massive radar. AN/SPY-7-ASEV radar panels are so big that the Japanese have had to mount the radar on the superstructure & not on the top of a mast.

Rough estimate of various naval radar sizes:


View attachment 41439

This is my concern with the P-18 design as shown:
View attachment 41440
The LR-MFR is bigger than the AN/SPY-7-ASEV & probably heavier too. Yet, the P-18 design wants to see it mounted atop a mast. Design is a continuation of the P-15A/P-15B/P-17A lineage.

Compare the size of the MF-STAR with the LR-MFR. The LR-MFR is >2 times the size of the MF-STAR.

By a simple extrapolation, P-18 will probably be anywhere between >2 the size of the P-17A to >2 the size of P-15B. So, around 13, 500 -15, 000 tons.

At that size if you want to have a power to weight ratio similar or at least close to IN's other destroyers/frigates you will need 4 RR MT-30 gas turbines in a COGAG setup (very similar to IAC-1's propulsion unit).

P-18s are going to cost >USD 2 billion per ship. 🥲
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Yeah I thought the same before we saw that CGI:


Considering that this CGI is from WESEE, we can only assume that as the configuration of the LRMFR meant for NGD isn't yet clear, they may have just decided to reuse the MFSTAR mast assembly to depict the main sensor.

That said, it's not strictly necessary for the radar on NGD to be the exact same 6-meter class as being tested on Avinash. It could be cut down to size once they figure out exactly how many TRM assemblies they need in order to carry out certain functions at a given range, like BMD fire control (if 70% of the array is enough to manage all roles as desired, we might well reduce the final size by 20-25%), this is what open-range testing is for.

It could also end up getting downsized once we move to 200W TRMs in future iterations (remember how much Uttam evolved before being put on Tejas) from the current 100W ones. Cuz I don't think the final version for NGD will have a peak power of only 2.4 MW (as some infoboards at Aero India suggest) considering most comparable setups have 5-6 MW.

So my personal take is that we need to hold our horses regarding what the actual size of NGD's radar could be. It could really be the 6-meter one we're seeing now, but it can also turn out to be smaller.
 
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