Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Lolwa]

R-37M isn't suitable for use against fighter jets. And it can only be used against older jets, 4th gen and below, ones that do not carry MAWS.

Russian literally shot ukrainian mig 29's and su-27's and 140 and 217km respectively . It can easily shoot down fighter aircrafts. We just need to get the motor tech from the Russians then we can brahmos the r-37m. It literally isn't that complex and it is still a cheaper option than the meteor or amraam. And we can easily integrate on our su-30, mig 29 and tejas.
Majority of Pakistani airforce is 3.5 and 4 gen fighters. Even only a portion of the plaaf has maws. That's j-16,j-10c and j-11.

 

[Rajput Lion]

R-37M isn't suitable for use against fighter jets. And it can only be used against older jets, 4th gen and below, ones that do not carry MAWS.

Russians have achieved very long range kills against Ukrainian Flankers/Fulcrums using R-37M. A missile needs 3 times overload to kill an agile aerial target. R-37M is rated for 8G targets, so it needs to pull 24G itself to achieve that. So even though it's a VLRAAM designed to kill HVAA, it's still extremely effective against fighter jets type agile targets.

I wouldn't mind MKI having this missile, just replace its AGAT seeker with our KU-band AESA one that's designed for Astra-2(just scaled up in diameter). That combo shall enhance its lethality by multiple times, IMO.

 

[randomradio]

Russian literally shot ukrainian mig 29's and su-27's and 140 and 217km respectively . It can easily shoot down fighter aircrafts. We just need to get the motor tech from the Russians then we can brahmos the r-37m. It literally isn't that complex and it is still a cheaper option than the meteor or amraam. And we can easily integrate on our su-30, mig 29 and tejas.
Majority of Pakistani airforce is 3.5 and 4 gen fighters. Even only a portion of the plaaf has maws. That's j-16,j-10c and j-11.

Those are the types of jets the R-37M can shoot down.

The ones we are gonna face, all have MAWS; JF-17 B3, J-10C, F-16 B52, J-16, J-31, and J-20.

 

[marich01]

Also those kills are almost certainly against very low flying jets , i think we all have seen how low flying jets are there in video footage. So both the range factor and detection + IFF verification loop has worked perfectly. Granted Ukr got little or no mountain coverage or uneven ground, but combination of range and speed can be very effective against Pak bogies.

 

[randomradio]

Russians have achieved very long range kills against Ukrainian Flankers/Fulcrums using R-37M. A missile needs 3 times overload to kill an agile aerial target. R-37M is rated for 8G targets, so it needs to pull 24G itself to achieve that. So even though it's a VLRAAM designed to kill HVAA, it's still extremely effective against fighter jets type agile targets.

I wouldn't mind MKI having this missile, just replace its AGAT seeker with our KU-band AESA one that's designed for Astra-2(just scaled up in diameter). That combo shall enhance its lethality by multiple times, IMO.

The Ukrainian jets lack MAWS, which puts them at a disadvantage. The Russians are using track-while-scan mode to fire the missile, so no lock-on, so Ukr jets aren't alerted until the last moment. But with MAWS, the kp of R-37M will reduce drastically due to early warning.

If Gandiva did not exist, then it would have been a good idea. Now it's just a waste of money. We need a much more capable missile, a true hypersonic missile.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Ukrainian jets lack MAWS, which puts them at a disadvantage. The Russians are using track-while-scan mode to fire the missile, so no lock-on, so Ukr jets aren't alerted until the last moment. But with MAWS, the kp of R-37M will reduce drastically due to early warning.

MAWS doesn't have the capability to detect R-37M's launch from 200+ kms away. By the time it is detected, it's already hurling down with Mach 6+ velocity from 80k+ feet altitude giving both MAWS/RWR very little time to alert the target and take evasive action. MAWS is more effective against MANPADs than BVRs.

If Gandiva did not exist, then it would have been a good idea. Now it's just a waste of money. We need a much more capable missile, a true hypersonic missile.

There is absolutely no doubt that Gandiva is going to be way more superior against agile targets than R-37M. But, Gandiva would be only operational in the 2030s ahong with the Virupaksha, whist we could get R-37M now. If we replace the Russian seeker and data-links with our own then we could integrate it not only with MKI but also with our Rafale fleet(because of BARS/RBE-2 AESA's range compatibility with the missile).

In fact, AFAIK GOI is currently in talks with Vympel for a joint production of R-37M in India. It's going to be a good addition in my book into our current fleet.

 

[randomradio]

MAWS doesn't have the capability to detect R-37M's launch from 200+ kms away. By the time it is detected, it's already hurling down with Mach 6+ velocity from 80k+ feet altitude giving both MAWS/RWR very little time to alert the target and take evasive action. MAWS is more effective against MANPADs than BVRs.

Modern MAWS now come in 2 colors. LWIR detects friction heat from close ranges, and MWIR can detect heat generated by the booster during launch.

And longer the distance, the slower the missile becomes at the end of flight. It lacks a dual pulse motor necessary before kill. So the 8G target performance is when the missile's at its peak energy. As it drops, the G performance will also drop, reducing kp. That's why early detection helps fighters, they can just go cold and wait for energy to run out. Also why it's designed to kill aircraft with G performance not exceeding 3.5.

There is absolutely no doubt that Gandiva is going to be way more superior against agile targets than R-37M. But, Gandiva would be only operational in the 2030s ahong with the Virupaksha, whist we could get R-37M now. If we replace the Russian seeker and data-links with our own then we could integrate it not only with MKI but also with our Rafale fleet(because of BARS/RBE-2 AESA's range compatibility with the missile).

In fact, AFAIK GOI is currently in talks with Vympel for a joint production of R-37M in India. It's going to be a good addition in my book into our current fleet.

Gandiva's development will be way faster than modernizing, testing, and integrating R-37M with Indian avionics. The Russians should have offered it as soon as it was ready. Or maybe the IAF is just not interested in it.

An R-37M class missile would be borderline acceptable if it comes with a dual or triple pulse motor with a 700+ km range. Then you can engage AWACS and tankers from horizon, while the missile retains a lot of speed and energy at ranges more relevant against fighters.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Modern MAWS now come in 2 colors. LWIR detects friction heat from close ranges, and MWIR can detect heat generated by the booster during launch.

Actually that would be two different bands and AFAIK, there is no such MAWS as of now(not even EODAS or DDM-NG). Dual-colour MAWS work in two different(blue & red) colour spectrum of MWIR itself. That's done to reduce false alarms.

About detecting skin friction, IR sensors working in 3-5 microns,ie, MWIR are fully capable of detecting skin friction of jets in the non-afterburning forward aspect and missiles in the coast phase. Heck, AIM-9L Sidewinder had such all-aspect MWIR seeker in late 1970s itself.

But despite all the above, the point still remains that MAWS can't detect BVR launches beyond 100kms(actual could be even half of that), thus R-37M falling down from higher altitudes would give very less time to its target.

And longer the distance, the slower the missile becomes at the end of flight. It lacks a dual pulse motor necessary before kill. So the 8G target performance is when the missile's at its peak energy. As it drops, the G performance will also drop, reducing kp. That's why early detection helps fighters, they can just go cold and wait for energy to run out. Also why it's designed to kill aircraft with G performance not exceeding 3.5.

Nah mate. Look at this:


Source: https://www.fsvts.gov.ru/catalog/765.en.html

The export RVV-BD has 60-80% probability of killing fighter type targets. And it may not have a dual-pulse motor but it has dual-thrust(boost-sustain) rocket motor. Thanks to its girth, it can carry plenty of propellant hence it'll remain powered in a direct shot at upto 150kms. This is very impressive, me thinks.

Gandiva's development will be way faster than modernizing, testing, and integrating R-37M with Indian avionics. The Russians should have offered it as soon as it was ready. Or maybe the IAF is just not interested in it.

Yeah, but maybe R-37M's performance in Ukraine war has lately impressed IAF. Who knows?

An R-37M class missile would be borderline acceptable if it comes with a dual or triple pulse motor with a 700+ km range. Then you can engage AWACS and tankers from horizon, while the missile retains a lot of speed and energy at ranges more relevant against fighters.

Don't count out dual-thrust motor of R-37M combined with its fat diameter. Anyways, I earlier proposed turning NGARM as our own VLRAAM. In the meantime we get our own VLRAAM(Gandiva or HVAA killer 2-3 pulse Astra 4), R-37M should be a good addition to our Flanker fleet.

 

[randomradio]

Actually that would be two different bands and AFAIK, there is no such MAWS as of now(not even EODAS or DDM-NG). Dual-colour MAWS work in two different(blue & red) colour spectrum of MWIR itself. That's done to reduce false alarms.

About detecting skin friction, IR sensors working in 3-5 microns,ie, MWIR are fully capable of detecting skin friction of jets in the non-afterburning forward aspect and missiles in the coast phase. Heck, AIM-9L Sidewinder had such all-aspect MWIR seeker in late 1970s itself.

But despite all the above, the point still remains that MAWS can't detect BVR launches beyond 100kms(actual could be even half of that), thus R-37M falling down from higher altitudes would give very less time to its target.

Nah mate. Look at this:
View attachment 42053

Source: https://www.fsvts.gov.ru/catalog/765.en.html

The export RVV-BD has 60-80% probability of killing fighter type targets. And it may not have a dual-pulse motor but it has dual-thrust(boost-sustain) rocket motor. Thanks to its girth, it can carry plenty of propellant hence it'll remain powered in a direct shot at upto 150kms. This is very impressive, me thinks.



Yeah, but maybe R-37M's performance in Ukraine war has lately impressed IAF. Who knows?

Don't count out dual-thrust motor of R-37M combined with its fat diameter. Anyways, I earlier proposed turning NGARM as our own VLRAAM. In the meantime we get our own VLRAAM(Gandiva or HVAA killer 2-3 pulse Astra 4), R-37M should be a good addition to our Flanker fleet.

Dual-mode is the normal one, boost + coast.

As for MAWS, it depends. With only MWIR, the range is indeed low, but new MAWS are coming up with LWIR + MWIR. The combination provides missile tracking range at below 150 km. So even if the launch is not detected, once it crosses the 150 km mark, it becomes visible to the jet's sensors.

Without an ability to accelerate, the kp keeps falling. So that's the drawback for such a missile. The real alternative is the Stunner.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Dual-mode is the normal one, boost + coast.

As for MAWS, it depends. With only MWIR, the range is indeed low, but new MAWS are coming up with LWIR + MWIR. The combination provides missile tracking range at below 150 km. So even if the launch is not detected, once it crosses the 150 km mark, it becomes visible to the jet's sensors.

Without an ability to accelerate, the kp keeps falling. So that's the drawback for such a missile. The real alternative is the Stunner.

MWIR sensors have actually better sensibility and suffer from less weather absorption than LWIR. That's why most modern MAWS work in MWIR.

In fact, talking about MWIR vs LWIR; Rafale's OSF earlier used to come with a dual-band IRST(3-5 micron & 8-12 micron) but it had very poor performance. The latest OSF-IR which our Rafale-I has got, works only in MWIR(3-5 microns)and has substantial range against the previous LWIR sensor. @Picdelamirand-oil & @Stealthflanker could confirm what I'm talking about here.

 

[randomradio]

MWIR sensors have actually better sensibility and suffer from less weather absorption than LWIR. That's why most modern MAWS work in MWIR.

In fact, talking about MWIR vs LWIR; Rafale's OSF earlier used to come with a dual-band IRST(3-5 micron & 8-12 micron) but it had very poor performance. The latest OSF-IR which our Rafale-I has got, works only in MWIR(3-5 microns)and has substantial range against the previous LWIR sensor. @Picdelamirand-oil & @Stealthflanker could confirm what I'm talking about here.

MWIR has 2.5 times the range of LWIR for hot objects. But even if the launch isn't picked up, MWIR can still detect and track the plume from closer ranges.

Basically, the drawback of the R-37M is the target cannot be alerted to its arrival, or it will be useless. Any aircraft with MAWS can automatically counteract the R-37M because of that.

Anyway, let's see if the IAF bites. Athough I don't think they will.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Dual-mode is the normal one, boost + coast.

Boost + coast refers to missile having just a single type of high-energy grain propellant which burns in a go, then using the energy missile coasts towards its target in an unpowered way.

Dual-thrust refers to missile having a combination of high-energy grain to provide it the initial acceleration, then once that phase is over, there is a second type of low-density/energy grain which burns for a long time, sustaining the momentum almost till the end.

AIM-120D/3 has the first kind of rocket motor(boost+ coast) whilst R-37M has the second kind(Boost+sustain) of rocket motor.

While none of the above match dual-pulse rocket motors or SFDRs, the latter(between the above) is substantially better than the former for endgame kinematics.

PS: As we talk, Adani group has done a JV with Vympel for a joint production of RVV-MD(R-74M) in India. It could also be for R-74M2(RVV-MD2) version. So, chances of R-37M production in India is still on.

 

[Speedster1]

Can't say about the R-37 but the IAF has certainly been eyeing the Meteor for integration on MKI for a long time now. MBDA should have no reservations since Virupaksha is closer than ever to realization.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Can't say about the R-37 but the IAF has certainly been eyeing the Meteor for integration on MKI for a long time now. MBDA should have no reservations since Virupaksha is closer than ever to realization.

Don't think Virupaksha would be operational within this decade. Maybe only in the early 2030s and by that time Gandiva would become fully operational so that in itself makes Meteor redundant. That's why R-37M is necessary to give current BARS equipped MKIs, BVR edge over F-16/AIM-120C5 & J-10CE/PL-15E combo. We can't affort Swift Retreat 2, where PAF fighters keep firing their longer sticks from D-Max, pushing our Flankers back. R-37M is like a low-hanging fruit solution to that problem. It allows MKI to fire back even if the enemy is 200kms away or at a higher altitude. But the real question is: will IAF concur?

 

[randomradio]

Boost + coast refers to missile having just a single type of high-energy grain propellant which burns in a go, then using the energy missile coasts towards its target in an unpowered way.

Dual-thrust refers to missile having a combination of high-energy grain to provide it the initial acceleration, then once that phase is over, there is a second type of low-density/energy grain which burns for a long time, sustaining the momentum almost till the end.

AIM-120D/3 has the first kind of rocket motor(boost+ coast) whilst R-37M has the second kind(Boost+sustain) of rocket motor.

While none of the above match dual-pulse rocket motors or SFDRs, the latter(between the above) is substantially better than the former for endgame kinematics.

PS: As we talk, Adani group has done a JV with Vympel for a joint production of RVV-MD(R-74M) in India. It could also be for R-74M2(RVV-MD2) version. So, chances of R-37M production in India is still on.

Both AIM-120 and R-37M have the same system, both are boost + sustain. You coast with the help of a sustainer. Once the sustainer shuts off, you glide.

Btw, dual color and dual band are the same thing. While MWIR and LWIR are separated, when designing sensors, they can overlap if necessary. It's kinda like we say X band radar, but actual radars have a mix of C and X bands. On bleeding edge MAWS like DRDO's DCMAWS or the F-35's EODAS, you basically average out MWIR (3-5 um) and LWIR (8-14 um) by designing the sensor in the gap. So you get 1 end at 4 um and the other at 10 um. So when they say dual color or dual band, you actually have 2 sensors working in one band each at a time and they average it out in order to remove false positives.

As for Adani, there's a new CCM competition coming up. They have tied up with Vympel. Nothing special. AIM-9X, ASRAAM, DRDO's CCM, Python V etc are in play. It's for MKI and LCA; MRFA too, but let's see. So don't read too much into any Russian offer. They are not involved in any phase of our future strategic procurement efforts in the next 10 years. Our main goal today is Western tech.

 

[randomradio]

Can't say about the R-37 but the IAF has certainly been eyeing the Meteor for integration on MKI for a long time now. MBDA should have no reservations since Virupaksha is closer than ever to realization.

MBDA wants full access to Virupaksha's technology and source codes, so Meteor's been junked. Derby ER was the next option, but was junked for Astra Mk2. So no more phoren BVR for LCA and MKI, and AMCA of course.

 

[randomradio]

Don't think Virupaksha would be operational within this decade. Maybe only in the early 2030s and by that time Gandiva would become fully operational so that in itself makes Meteor redundant. That's why R-37M is necessary to give current BARS equipped MKIs, BVR edge over F-16/AIM-120C5 & J-10CE/PL-15E combo. We can't affort Swift Retreat 2, where PAF fighters keep firing their longer sticks from D-Max, pushing our Flankers back. R-37M is like a low-hanging fruit solution to that problem. It allows MKI to fire back even if the enemy is 200kms away or at a higher altitude. But the real question is: will IAF concur?

Astra Mk2 will very likely match or outrange the PLAAF's version of the PL-15. Outranging PAF is not a worry.

 

[Speedster1]

We can't affort Swift Retreat 2, where PAF fighters keep firing their longer sticks from D-Max, pushing our Flankers back. R-37M is like a low-hanging fruit solution to that problem. It allows MKI to fire back even if the enemy is 200kms away or at a higher altitude. But the real question is: will IAF concur

True. Although the IAFs rules of engagement would need to change as well. Trying to close in on an enemy firing at you from max range (for maximizing kill probability) is unnecessary, even foolhardy in the BVR age.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Both AIM-120 and R-37M have the same system, both are boost + sustain. You coast with the help of a sustainer. Once the sustainer shuts off, you glide.

Earlier AMRAAM upto AIM-120C5 indeed had dual-thrust boost-sustain rocket motor but they changed it in the D variant. AIM-120D has only boost only rocket motor, where entire fuel consists of high-energy grain that burns within 6-7 seconds. That is done to loft it higher and faster, it only relies on gravity to blow its target. R-37M is different as its single-pulse rocket motor consists of two different high/low energy grain placed in a succession for it to hold its thrust longer post initial high boost.

Btw, dual color and dual band are the same thing. While MWIR and LWIR are separated, when designing sensors, they can overlap if necessary. It's kinda like we say X band radar, but actual radars have a mix of C and X bands. On bleeding edge MAWS like DRDO's DCMAWS or the F-35's EODAS, you basically average out MWIR (3-5 um) and LWIR (8-14 um) by designing the sensor in the gap. So you get 1 end at 4 um and the other at 10 um. So when they say dual color or dual band, you actually have 2 sensors working in one band each at a time and they average it out in order to remove false positives.

Here is official DRDO brochure of DCMAWS:




Source: Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning System (DCMAWS) for Fighter Aircraft | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

As you can see in the first sentence itself, DCMAWS works only in mid-IR band. No mention of LWIR whatsoever. EODAS, is just the same. Even EOTS also works in MWIR only.

As for Adani, there's a new CCM competition coming up. They have tied up with Vympel. Nothing special. AIM-9X, ASRAAM, DRDO's CCM, Python V etc are in play. It's for MKI and LCA; MRFA too, but let's see. So don't read too much into any Russian offer. They are not involved in any phase of our future strategic procurement efforts in the next 10 years. Our main goal today is Western tech.

R-77M2 is quite advance with 50kms launch range and data-links that allow LOAL, ie, complete passive launch with near BVR range. I don't know whether Adani group signed for this. But in a shooting war, having local production of all these missiles are a welcome addition. As for Western tech, we already have local manufacturing of ASRAAM Block-6 as standard CCM for our whole fleet. It doesn't get any better than that.

Astra Mk2 will very likely match or outrange the PLAAF's version of the PL-15. Outranging PAF is not a worry.

Don't think so. Both Astra 1 & 2 would give us only parity or a slight edge at max, whilst Gandiva or R-37M give us the BVR edge we would like to have. Gandiva would be ready by the end of this decade or early next decade. Till then R-37M shall give us the edge along with our limited Rafale/Meteor fleet.

 

[randomradio]

Earlier AMRAAM upto AIM-120C5 indeed had dual-thrust boost-sustain rocket motor but they changed it in the D variant. AIM-120D has only boost only rocket motor, where entire fuel consists of high-energy grain that burns within 6-7 seconds. That is done to loft it higher and faster, it only relies on gravity to blow its target. R-37M is different as its single-pulse rocket motor consists of two different high/low energy grain placed in a succession for it to hold its thrust longer post initial high boost.

Turns out coast and glide are the same.

There are three phases to a missile's flight. Boost lasts up to 5 seconds, then the sustainer kicks in for up to 20 seconds. The rest of the flight sees the missile coasting or gliding towards the target.

So both AIM-120 and R-37M work using this method. So does the Meteor.

Dual pulse works a bit differently. It goes, boost-glide-pulse. No sustain.

So for now, boost-sustain-glide and boost-glide-pulse are the only designs available for the current lot.

And there's Stunner, which adds an extra pulse: boost-glide-pulse-glide-pulse-glide. So triple pulse.

AIM-260 could be the first of a third type, boost-sustain-glide-pulse.

Then there are staged versions like the two-stage LREW (boost-glide-no pulse/multiple pulses, guessing), some BMDs and ASATs or AAMs with an additional jettisonable booster.

Here is official DRDO brochure of DCMAWS:



View attachment 42088
Source: Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning System (DCMAWS) for Fighter Aircraft | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

As you can see in the first sentence itself, DCMAWS works only in mid-IR band. No mention of LWIR whatsoever. EODAS, is just the same. Even EOTS also works in MWIR only.

It's likely to be strategic misinformation.

Stunner's seeker is MWIR+LWIR, as is the F-35's EODAS and Python V.

So maybe it's possible that DCMAWS uses 2 sub-bands of MW rather than both MW and LW, but it's more than likely a combined system.

Dual-color is typically advertised for both MW and LW for IR.

LW/MW Cooled Infrared Thermal Modules | GSTiR

The dual color cooled thermal module combines the advantages of both medium and long wave detection in one single 320x256@30µm detector package for high performance imaging.

www.gst-ir.net

Here's a study of an NIR and MWIR dual color system.

Van der Waals two-color infrared photodetector - Light: Science & Applications

With the increasing demand for multispectral information acquisition, infrared multispectral imaging technology that is inexpensive and can be miniaturized and integrated into other devices has received extensive attention. However, the widespread usage of such photodetectors is still limited by...

www.nature.com

So typically we are talking about 2 different bands rather than 2 sub-bands.

R-77M2 is quite advance with 50kms launch range and data-links that allow LOAL, ie, complete passive launch with near BVR range. I don't know whether Adani group signed for this. But in a shooting war, having local production of all these missiles are a welcome addition. As for Western tech, we already have local manufacturing of ASRAAM Block-6 as standard CCM for our whole fleet. It doesn't get any better than that.

We have bought 384 ASRAAMs for the Jaguar, but our total requirement is 8000+ CCMs. It could climb up to 12000 if we are moving towards 60 squadrons, not counting IN's inventory.

Don't think so. Both Astra 1 & 2 would give us only parity or a slight edge at max, whilst Gandiva or R-37M give us the BVR edge we would like to have. Gandiva would be ready by the end of this decade or early next decade. Till then R-37M shall give us the edge along with our limited Rafale/Meteor fleet.

While you never know, it's still difficult to assume the IAF will be buying something as a stopgap for just a few years. This type of missile is very expensive, and even more so if it's spread out across multiple bases, and you even have to train multiple personnel. That's why stopgaps for weapons are normally reserved for known weapons, like RVV-MD and SD.

There are enough Rafales for a Balakot type situation anyway. LCA will add to that pretty soon.