Hunny you're not winning this ok? You're clueless and this General thinks you're clueless
F-35 AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER!
Since General Hostage made the claim.
Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
F-35 AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER!
The top speed of mach 1.8 for Rafale is done in clean configuration AND it was done on the A model. Since then Rafale has put a lot of weight and hasn't gotten thrust upgrade for its engines.
That statement was specifically for the F-22 and F-35 debate. Its main rivals are the J-20 and Su-57, both can supercruise.
Other supercruisers are Rafale and Typhoon, but I don't think they are gonna fight the F-22 or F-35 anytime soon.
But when it comes to high speed, older jets can sustain supersonic speeds with minimum burner for very long times.
How the U.S. Air Force Trains for a War with Russia (or Russian Fighters)
As the United States Air Force continues its struggle with fielding enough aggressor aircraft for its combat aircraft crews to train against, contractors are stepping up to the plate. In some cases, contractors are able to field remarkable aircraft that provide an exceptionally authentic...
nationalinterest.org
Read through this quoted bit.
The F-35 isn't capable of such levels of performance.
Nope, you are thinking top speed, but the F-35 needs afterburner to climb and accelerate. BVR combat is a complex dance. You are gonna have to push and pull that throttle many times.
I prefer dealing with information. It's others who bring in people 'cause that's the limit of their understanding. I shall present information later in the thread. Anyway, in this case, Picdel was right. B4 has indeed been pushed to beyond 2031.
There was nothing on the F-35 that was special. The F-35's STOVL was also stuff LM bought from the Soviet Union. It was a carrier jet called the Yak-41.
Yakovlev Yak-141 - Wikipedia
Pretty much the same tech went into the F-35B.
They are not claiming that "right now." They are claiming that it will eventually become it. And the claim is reinforced by rejecting foreign claims of competing jets, meaning it's not necessarily true. And the F-35 is still a paper plane, explained below.
Real news.
Pentagon refused to accept deliveries due to lack of progress on TR-3.
Pentagon to accept deliveries of Lockheed F-35s after yearlong pause
The decision will allow deliveries of the latest F-35s to resume after a roughly year-long halt.
www.defensenews.com
That's becuase of your own limited understanding of the topic.
He says information is supreme. I agree.
He says the F-35 is the best. I disagree. And the Pentagon disagrees too. Hence the pause in deliveries. Chip was right at the time, but what he did not know then was LM wasn't up to the task of delivering it. And it became "too big to fail."
DOT&E is yet to clear the F-35 for B4. It's currently operating below the threshold of Block 3F. Its onboard processing is only capable of running the Block 3I fully. And when they introduced TR-3 hardware, even that was lost. So the Pentagon told LM to take a hike until they fixed it. LM came up with a half-baked solution, an "interim TR-3" solution that maintains some warfighting capabilities.
The basic design is that of an ASF, but it lugs large CFTs and 3 external tanks to be useful. It's been designed to carry heavy loads and act as a BVR truck for the F-22 and F-35.
The F-15EX is not as good as you think it is. Really. Everything is propaganda. Once you get down into the mud and sift through it, you get real information.
So today, the F-22 is good, but still an old radar. The F-35 will be very good by 2030, but not as good as new enemy jets, in terms of air combat at least. The F-15EX exists solely to meet the USAF's requirement of 72 jets a year. They plan on buying 48 F-35s and 24 F-15s instead of their original goal of buying all 72 F-35s, all 'cause the F-35 has failed to meet expectations. So the F-15 will bridge the gap until the F-35 is ready, ie 2030+. This is the reality of the USAF today. The B-21 is the only saving grace for them.
Funny thing is the Pentagon aren't even lying about it, you are just ignorant of the current state of affairs.
An Insider’s View Of Options To Fix The F-35’s Cooling Crisis | Aviation Week Network
The fighter needs more cooling system capacity to keep electronics from overheating, but long-term requirements may entail major changes.
aviationweek.com
The cooling shortfall is widening as the Block 4 upgrade program adds more powerful electronics and sensors. The improvements have increased the requirement for the cooling system to handle up to 47 kW of waste heat. Furthermore, classified upgrades envisioned for the 2030s could drive the requirement up to at least 62 kW—and perhaps as high as 80 kW.
TR-3 delays.
Full F-35 upgrade package might not happen this year, Lockheed says
The company also reported $2B in losses in 2024 on classified programs in its fourth-quarter earnings call.
www.defenseone.com
Pratt F-35 engine upgrade clears preliminary design review - Breaking Defense
The Engine Core Upgrade program is “on track” to field “as early as 2029,” according to Pratt & Whitney.
breakingdefense.com
A suite of forthcoming upgrades to the plane itself known as Block 4 is expected to turn the F-35’s heat factor even higher and require more cooling as a result. Both Pratt and the F-35 Joint Program Office have said the ECU will not only address the bleed air issue but will fully enable Block 4 capabilities as well. The F-35 program is also planning a separate cooling system upgrade to address needs beyond Block 4.
GAO thinks P&W will take until 2032 to deliver this engine versus P&W's goal of 2029.
So this is where the F-35 stands today. Chip's F-35 doesn't exist yet.
So 2026 for TR-3. 2027-28 for Block 4A. 2029-30 for the new engine and cooling upgrade. Then Block 4B, 2032 or 2033. That's when it will meet Chip's standards meant for 2019 (plus with some newer tech of course). And the stuff he said meant for 2025+, yeah, think 2040 instead, Block 5-10.
My previous post should have answered this.
I'll keep it simple. You need to comfortably operate well beyond mach 1 to be considered an ASF.
Growlers are passe. As Gen Hostage said, no Growlers on day 1.
A Nimitz carrier operating from 300 km away can perform 250 sorties a day. But when operating beyond the first island chain, at least 1000 km away, it could be less than half that. 3 or 4 carriers should be able to manage 400 sorties a day from long distances. That's why the focus on a 1000 nmi fighter, so the carrier can operate from a safe distance.
USAF will have to manage about 3000-4000 sorties a day with at least 1200 jets or so. The Chinese could probably do 10000+ sorties a day as they get their numbers up.
The Chinese currently have 2300-2500 jets and are likely building 250 a year. The US has 2800 jets but are building only 100-110 or so a year.
The F-15EX is significantly inferior to the F-35A in terms of kinematics, with the exception of top speed. AoA, roll rates, subsonic acceleration, turn rates, climb rates, all important parameters favor the F-35A.
It's not an F-15CX, but an EX. Based on the F-15E Strike Eagle. Its AS role comes via sensors and BVR, not kinematics. They are just selling you a story so you buy the crap. It's just a strike jet meant to carry heavy weapons, stuff the F-22 and F-35 can't. That's with only 36 jets based in Okinawa. The main F-15EX fleet is going to the ANG.
The USAF is merely buying 100-150 jets as a stopgap to keep Boeing's production line functional. Don't get so carried away by propaganda. Did you forget the USAF is still being forced to operate the A-10? It's been kept alive via absolutely nonsensical propaganda too.
It doesn't matter what the F-35 brings to the table. The fact remains that it cannot be integrated to the IACCS without major compromises . It'd need a separate system altogether . Whoever creates such a carve out to accomodate just one Fighter Aircraft in one's inventory ?
We're back to having to listen to you referencing your butt buddies Generals Bogdan & Hostage aren't we ?
Perhaps you should play this along with the recent news reports by multiple US publications including the NYT about how the F-35 escaped targeting by the skin of its teeth by the Houthis just a few days back , to those good generals asking them now what ?
Evidently those camel humpers - the Houthis were receiving targeting solutions from the Chinese thru their extensive ISR network involving space based assets among other ones . Be that as it may hope you realise what it means ? That the biggest USP of the F-35 & others like it emphasising stealth are no longer infallible.
What you now have is a highly networked FA capable of various other feats EXCEPT stealth. Very reassuring thought in the wake of what we're going to see in the very near future over Taiwan.
Arguably it's this very Chinese presence which MAYBE responsible for the Rafale attrition in our recent showdown with Paxtan but we'd have to wait for official confirmation.
Fun times ahead for all those stealth fighters sweetie including the J-20s. Looks like the Russkies stand vindicated for their design philosophy of the Su-57 me thinks .
*Laughs in Russian *
That statement was specifically for the F-22 and F-35 debate. Its main rivals are the J-20 and Su-57, both can supercruise.
Other supercruisers are Rafale and Typhoon, but I don't think they are gonna fight the F-22 or F-35 anytime soon.
But when it comes to high speed, older jets can sustain supersonic speeds with minimum burner for very long times.
How the U.S. Air Force Trains for a War with Russia (or Russian Fighters)
As the United States Air Force continues its struggle with fielding enough aggressor aircraft for its combat aircraft crews to train against, contractors are stepping up to the plate. In some cases, contractors are able to field remarkable aircraft that provide an exceptionally authentic...
Read through this quoted bit.
The F-35 isn't capable of such levels of performance.
The US's and ergo the F-22 definition of Super Cruise is highly specific. what you are talking about is not what is considered "Super cruise" this is further confusion. and most legacy aircraft can do the the kind of "Super cruise" you are describing and have been capable of doing for a long time.
its two different defintions and yes an F-35 could emulate the same thing just like any of the other teen fighters and other 4th generation machines.
its not your fault, the definition was deliberately muddled. once the F-22 did actual Super Cruise everyone jumped in on the bandwagon and said the same thing. They could super cruise too!!
if we use the F-22 definition very few aircraft can super cruise. if we use the "me too definition" where they manipulat the throttle burner and altitude then most aircraft can do it. The F-22 even uses the afterburner to punch through the barrier typically because it saves more fuel to quickly use the burner rather than barrel through the layer forever.
once you have included the Rafale you have opened up to the F-35s and hornets. The rest is you kicking and screaming that even though the F-35 and Rafale and hornets are extremely similiar in performance that the f-35 has to be excluded because its an F-35!!
its immaterial anyway
not at all the same tech --the Yak 141 used 2 separate engines while the F-35 used a STOVL lift fan that is connected to the main engine, and won an aviation trophy. to say nothing of that fact that the Yak 141 never went into service and meanwhile the F-35 is the only production Mach capable STOVL aircraft. the F-35 owes the rest of its resemblance to the F-22, because LM basically went with the same thing again. its true that LM paid russia for access to the Yak 141 but it was seemingly a fools errand, the layout is similiar, after that there's nothing.There was nothing on the F-35 that was special. The F-35's STOVL was also stuff LM bought from the Soviet Union. It was a carrier jet called the Yak-41.
Yakovlev Yak-141 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Pretty much the same tech went into the F-35B.
its a common misconception and I don't know why people persist in it.
sweet irony!
like most of your posts your taking a mix of partial information throwing your own opinions on it and then calling it truth. Deliveries didn't stop because of a lack of sensors. they couldn't certify the jets in testing so delivery was put on hold.He says information is supreme. I agree.
He says the F-35 is the best. I disagree.And the Pentagon disagrees too. Hence the pause in deliveries. Chip was right at the time, but what he did not know then was LM wasn't up to the task of delivering it. And it became "too big to fail."
DOT&E is yet to clear the F-35 for B4. It's currently operating below the threshold of Block 3F. Its onboard processing is only capable of running the Block 3I fully. And when they introduced TR-3 hardware, even that was lost. So the Pentagon told LM to take a hike until they fixed it. LM came up with a half-baked solution, an "interim TR-3" solution that maintains some warfighting capabilities.
The basic design is that of an ASF, but it lugs large CFTs and 3 external tanks to be useful. It's been designed to carry heavy loads and act as a BVR truck for the F-22 and F-35.
So today, the F-22 is good, but still an old radar. The F-35 will be very good by 2030, but not as good as new enemy jets, in terms of air combat at least. The F-15EX exists solely to meet the USAF's requirement of 72 jets a year. They plan on buying 48 F-35s and 24 F-15s instead of their original goal of buying all 72 F-35s, all 'cause the F-35 has failed to meet expectations. So the F-15 will bridge the gap until the F-35 is ready, ie 2030+. This is the reality of the USAF today. The B-21 is the only saving grace for them.
Funny thing is the Pentagon aren't even lying about it, you are just ignorant of the current state of affairs.
Fifteen years ago, however, Lockheed discovered that the cooling system was insufficient, according to a report in May by the Government Accountability Office. Instead of requiring 14 kW of cooling capacity, the Block 3F F-35 demanded up to 32 kW. To close this gap, Lockheed, Pratt and Honeywell adapted the PTMS to siphon twice the amount of air out of the engine as intended, but that has reduced the propulsion system’s longevity and increased repair costs.An Insider’s View Of Options To Fix The F-35’s Cooling Crisis | Aviation Week Network
The fighter needs more cooling system capacity to keep electronics from overheating, but long-term requirements may entail major changes.
The cooling shortfall is widening as the Block 4 upgrade program adds more powerful electronics and sensors. The improvements have increased the requirement for the cooling system to handle up to 47 kW of waste heat. Furthermore, classified upgrades envisioned for the 2030s could drive the requirement up to at least 62 kW—and perhaps as high as 80 kW.
TR-3 delays.
Full F-35 upgrade package might not happen this year, Lockheed says
The company also reported $2B in losses in 2024 on classified programs in its fourth-quarter earnings call.
An upgrade to the current engine is needed, officials say, due to a cooling problem long known with the F-35. Essentially, the fighter’s engine is being overworked because its cooling system needs to draw more air pressure, known as “bleed air,” from its powerplant than designers originally expected, forcing the engine to run hotter and reducing its lifespan in turn. The upgrade is expected to restore engine life and offer better performance.Pratt F-35 engine upgrade clears preliminary design review - Breaking Defense
The Engine Core Upgrade program is “on track” to field “as early as 2029,” according to Pratt & Whitney.
A suite of forthcoming upgrades to the plane itself known as Block 4 is expected to turn the F-35’s heat factor even higher and require more cooling as a result. Both Pratt and the F-35 Joint Program Office have said the ECU will not only address the bleed air issue but will fully enable Block 4 capabilities as well. The F-35 program is also planning a separate cooling system upgrade to address needs beyond Block 4.
GAO thinks P&W will take until 2032 to deliver this engine versus P&W's goal of 2029.
So this is where the F-35 stands today. Chip's F-35 doesn't exist yet.
So 2026 for TR-3. 2027-28 for Block 4A. 2029-30 for the new engine and cooling upgrade. Then Block 4B, 2032 or 2033. That's when it will meet Chip's standards meant for 2019 (plus with some newer tech of course). And the stuff he said meant for 2025+, yeah, think 2040 instead, Block 5-10.
Block 4 is an important upgrade, but we disagree, and others do as well including the Pentagon that its block 4 or nothing or that an F-35 is useless without Block 4.
you take a fact. put your twist on it and then retreat to the fallacous appeal of authority of "the pentagon says!" That isn't why they stopped delivery:
"TR-3 hardware will not be accepted until relevant combat capability is validated in accordance with our users’ expectations,” so they fell behind in testing and by contract can't accept delivery. It has nothing to do with what you claim. you are twisting the words and creating your own logic. then you attempt to say you are more informed. LOL
"With more than 900 aircraft fielded across the F-35 enterprise, our U.S. and coalition warfighters are operating true cutting-edge fighter capability, strengthening our alliances and partnerships, and building steadfast fifth-generation capacity. The F-35 exhibits superior performance in peacetime and operational missions, serving as a strong deterrent and demonstrating resiliency of the global sustainment solution"
the pentagon testifies to stuff like this all the time. you just make sure to pick the quotes that support your thesis and ignore the rest. The pentagon is a large place and a lot of people. The pentagon never hesitates to say the F-35 is the best thing flying
you miss the point completely and it goes to show that your "Real information" is often schizophrenic. The F-15 is an air superiortiy fighter and even YOU listed it as such. I point out that the F-35 could beat the F-15 in the air and you say "well its not as good as you think it is!!" The F-15 can defeat an air superiority fighter but you won't count the F-35 as an air superiority fighter because it has to move the throttle in BVR? its incredibly arbitrary. the aircraft that gets shotdown is an ASF, but the aircraft shoots down the ASF is not ASF. Ok!
To circle back to the original point the F-35 can do Air Superiority it has plenty of attributes and is comparable to the aircraft you list yourself.
imagine if Trump got a wild hair and decided to send India 10 F-35As but the bombs won't be here for 6 months. are you really going to tell me that Indian Air Force pilots can't make the F-35 an air superiority fighter if they had the chance? I bet pretty heavily that they could. And if India was given such a gift would they reject it? I highly doubt it. I presume Indian pilots would see what most F-35 pilots see...
Oh creature you and your assumptions on the F-35 is pathetic. Was F-35 detected and tracked, creature? F-35 has the most advanced "MAWS" in EODAS which likely went off when houthis started lobbing missiles in general direction of F-35 hoping for a score. Iraqi's used these same tactics in Desert Storm when F-117's dropped their loads over Baghdad. Interview with F-117 pilot said the moment he dropped his load all hell broke loose and he cut and ran when he saw missiles streaking... kinda like you do creature when you drop your load on that sandy beach you just cut and run, doncha?
Now what we do know creature is the Rafale is no air superiority fighter if an export J-10 can shoot it down with all that sorcery the mighty Rafale has like that specter thingy. Actually.... I take back saying the Rafale not being an air superiority fighter it's just not the air superiority fighter the frenchies and fanboys in here claimed to be. I'm sure it can do well against non-AESA fighters piloted by Arabs. Oh creature the french are not happy with youz people for making their aircraft look bad.
The very fact that your wunderwaffe was detected by camel humpers says a lot sweetie. This lot is just a notch up from your favourite terrorist group the boy humpers aka the Talibunnies , Ja ?
We know what happened there , don't we ? Just as we know Dolund "cut & ran " in Yemen declaring "victory" against the Houthis . Seems to me yet another feather in that much feathered cap of yours , Ja ?
US armed forces - never won one war in all the wars they themselves initiated since WW-2 . Gulf War 1 & 2 don't count as they were coalitions. In any case you scrammed out of Eye Raq maintaining only a small presence there that too contested thanks to Nobel laureate Obummer , Ja ?
Something that's in your past given you've transitioned , Ja ?
We don't know squat. All we're doing is speculating. What we do know for certain is no SEAD / DEAD was undertaken on the night of 7th May . If anything that should play a vital role in the outcome of what transpired that night.
Not so in Yemen against a bunch of rag tag camel humpers sweetie. They whopped your unwashed culos good. So impressed were the USN by the a r s e whopping it got by the rag tag camel humpers , it dedicated ~ 7 Reapers & 2 Super Hornets ( not lost in combat ) to those camel humpers , Ja ?
Replace the Rafale with F-35 & the post would read just as true. And we're talking rag tag camel humpers here sweetie not a proper military. You're one up on the le Francais , Ja ?
But you seem pleased as punch by the performance & declaration of victory over the rag tag camel humpers by Dolund , Ja ?Oh creature the french are not happy with youz people for making their aircraft look bad.
*Laughs in Mandarin Russian & most importantly of all - in Arabic *
Last edited:
rules are if an F-35 has to maneuver its doomed and stealth is over but if Rafale(s) are shot down= "we don't know squat"
"Until now, the French Air Force authorities had dismissed the need for a SEAD/DEAD Rafale, since the stealth characteristics of the French fighter, coupled with the good performance of its SPECTRA electronic warfare system and the use of HAMMER stand-off guided munitions, had proved effective against the air defense systems they had faced."
SEAD/DEAD version of the Rafale to be developed by 2030
The French Air and Space Force wants a version of the Rafale dedicated to electronic attack and suppression/destruction of enemy air defenses (SEAD/DEAD). Specialized journalist Gareth Jennings, present at the International Fighter Conference (IFC) taking place in Berlin, reported via his social net
www.aviacionline.com
I was assured by the French that SPECTRA was far more adaptable compared to stealth. and IADs or not I was assured by the same French people that since Active Cancelation is completely real, and even better than "passive stealth" that Rafale should have performed with superiority.
its far more worrisome to think that the Rafale's main attribute is faulty, and it doesn't have "passive stealth" to fall back on. Rafale bet it all on its self-protection suite, a suite who's sole purpose was to eliminate the need for SEAD/DEAD
What bothers me about Rafale in this strike was this was absolutely a classic envisioned Rafale mission if we had told the French fanboy club what was about to take place, they would have assured us of complete and total success now we are hearing about how there were a lot of preconditions that were never met, but of course we were assured were unneeded too. Its going to be interesting to find out how much Rafale is authentic
Stealth was never "infallible" the idea that stealth is "invisibility" is basically for civilian consumption. What Stealth does, and why we are unlikely to see it go away is increased survivability. it does not guarantee it. if a stealth fighter getting shot down means stealth is obsolete then it already happened 26 years ago.
I also wouldn't point to the Su-57 as vindication. I look at Su-57 it looks fairly stealthy to me. I had no idea the compromised signature was actually a part of the plan? months ago it was fighting words to point out the Felon is stealthy as a mud fence,-- now its a badge of honor! Well I say congratulations Russia! Way to not be stealthy!
"at least its not stealthy!" Russia retorts. well ok then! That is one helluva a timeline for a non stealthy Flanker Follow on.
most of your post is to troll the man from California, i see this. but there is in the end as you lots of speculation and I wouldn't draw any hard conclusions just yet.
All things are hinges on one point that how much US allows to integrate it's things to US systems. If it is Israel level then Okey else, miner chance.
You already know that Biden/ Dems were more anti-India than Republicans who are somewhat supportive of India in comparison, Issue with Trump is, his mood swing, it is more than PMS.It's not only Trump but Biden too did things that was against India. To be your enemy is bad but to be your friend is fatal. Thank You very much. We've Russia, France & Israel as our reliable partners and are happy with them.
remember he just said it was "better" What does "better" mean? We have no idea. In these subjects, contrary to what RandomRadio would like to believe there is just only so much that can be achieved from non-secret sources. Every question that recieves an answer will only produce 5 more questions and all the "good answers" are very much state and national secrets.
Somewhere out there are people who understand all the different, real world aspects of these aircraft but none of them are for public consumption. yes it is true that if you go over enough public sources you can be more well informed; but they can also be misleading. the really important stuff will always be shielded
the F-35 can do that, and in fact I would say more "comfortable" because its not burdened with external stores. F-35 shoots down Air Superiority F-15 despite speed. still claim that speed is the difference. Wow!
Thank goodness he didn't say ships were passe!
I've been hearing this for years...
I don't think the type of F-15 matters to the F-35 and again the F-15EX has the superior sensors in comparison. I hope you see my point. we are saying the F-15C (by your list) is an "AS" but then the F-35 shoots it down because the F-35 is decades newer. so how is it AS if it loses to a fighter you insist can't do the AS mission? its confusing. the F-35 can't do air superiority, but it can kill air superiority fighters fairly easily...
sometimes I forget your expertise in all things american military and politics
I hope the Rafale pilot or pilotS are all ok and safe suffering no injury.... having said that this has been soooo delicious seeing the frenchies in here go MIA and the 2-3 Rafale fanboys do mental gymnastics. For the past 2-3 years all we heard is we don't need stealth Rafale is good enough even against J-20 obnoxiously touting the Rafale's spectra capabilities while at the same time talking cht about the F-35, and then when it was time for Rafale to step up in real combat it completely falls nose first. Lets not forget the claim before the conflict that a flight of Rafales were jammed by Pakistani EW aircraft. The frenchies have gotten humbled and the 2-3 fanboys in here are more delusional than ever.rules are if an F-35 has to maneuver its doomed and stealth is over but if Rafale(s) are shot down= "we don't know squat"
"Until now, the French Air Force authorities had dismissed the need for a SEAD/DEAD Rafale, since the stealth characteristics of the French fighter, coupled with the good performance of its SPECTRA electronic warfare system and the use of HAMMER stand-off guided munitions, had proved effective against the air defense systems they had faced."
SEAD/DEAD version of the Rafale to be developed by 2030
The French Air and Space Force wants a version of the Rafale dedicated to electronic attack and suppression/destruction of enemy air defenses (SEAD/DEAD). Specialized journalist Gareth Jennings, present at the International Fighter Conference (IFC) taking place in Berlin, reported via his social net
I was assured by the French that SPECTRA was far more adaptable compared to stealth. and IADs or not I was assured by the same French people that since Active Cancelation is completely real, and even better than "passive stealth" that Rafale should have performed with superiority.
its far more worrisome to think that the Rafale's main attribute is faulty, and it doesn't have "passive stealth" to fall back on. Rafale bet it all on its self-protection suite, a suite who's sole purpose was to eliminate the need for SEAD/DEAD
What bothers me about Rafale in this strike was this was absolutely a classic envisioned Rafale mission if we had told the French fanboy club what was about to take place, they would have assured us of complete and total success now we are hearing about how there were a lot of preconditions that were never met, but of course we were assured were unneeded too. Its going to be interesting to find out how much Rafale is authentic
Stealth was never "infallible" the idea that stealth is "invisibility" is basically for civilian consumption. What Stealth does, and why we are unlikely to see it go away is increased survivability. it does not guarantee it. if a stealth fighter getting shot down means stealth is obsolete then it already happened 26 years ago.
I also wouldn't point to the Su-57 as vindication. I look at Su-57 it looks fairly stealthy to me. I had no idea the compromised signature was actually a part of the plan? months ago it was fighting words to point out the Felon is stealthy as a mud fence,-- now its a badge of honor! Well I say congratulations Russia! Way to not be stealthy!
"at least its not stealthy!" Russia retorts. well ok then! That is one helluva a timeline for a non stealthy Flanker Follow on.
most of your post is to troll the man from California, i see this. but there is in the end as you lots of speculation and I wouldn't draw any hard conclusions just yet.
The cherry on top on all of this would be the IAF (humbled) goes to the US and ask to purchase the F-35 under US terms and not the IAFs. Hell imagine the US saying no to IAF on wanting F-35's that would be the cherry on top of the cherry.
Of course both statements can be simultaneously true. Why are you surprised ? Who exactly is the USN facing down in the Gulf of Aden ? Did anyone expect them to even detect a Fighter Aircraft leave alone an F-35 & if they've shot off SAMs rest assured they had a track on these F-35s .
The nature of tracking , the how's & whys of their response can be debated till the cows come home.
"Until now, the French Air Force authorities had dismissed the need for a SEAD/DEAD Rafale, since the stealth characteristics of the French fighter, coupled with the good performance of its SPECTRA electronic warfare system and the use of HAMMER stand-off guided munitions, had proved effective against the air defense systems they had faced."
SEAD/DEAD version of the Rafale to be developed by 2030
The French Air and Space Force wants a version of the Rafale dedicated to electronic attack and suppression/destruction of enemy air defenses (SEAD/DEAD). Specialized journalist Gareth Jennings, present at the International Fighter Conference (IFC) taking place in Berlin, reported via his social net
It's good for le Francais for the kind of opponents they're expect to go up against . Le Francais opponents aren't necessarily our opponents.
That's what is in the realm of speculation. We need to first get the IAF to acknowledge a loss. So far we've extensive official reportage on the heavy damages inflicted by the IAF on Paxtan. Not one word on their losses or the kills they've scored on the PAF.
Rest assured the IAF will come out with precisely such a statement. They always have. Even at the height of our last encounter with Paxtan we suffered a blue on blue apart from the MiG-21 which was shot down. Both were duly acknowledged by the IAF.
As far as SPECTRA not succeeding goes if we regard those rumours as true , it also stands to reason the Paxtanis could never in this or the next 7 lifetimes achieve this on their own.
This has China's finger prints all over it & it's not just here but in Yemen as well. They've deployed their massive space based ISR network apart from other battlefield sensors at least in Paxtan getting inputs in real time.
I suspect this would be the reason for the Rafales going down if at all. That isn't a comforting thought though. Neither should it be so for Lightning II fanbois or girls like sweetie.
You're preaching to the converted here. You need to convince sweetie @Innominate
Sweetie's the pig headed person here ( pardon the turn of phrase , Shlomo )
It's an LO FA for crying out loud. The design philosophy was always in favour of aerodynamics & manoeuvrability over emphasising stealth.
Does that qualify it to be a stealth FA ? It does in my book. We can argue on comparisons to the J-20 or the F-35 etc if there's such an argument to be made which is subjective to the opponent the Air Force featuring the Su-57 is going up against . But that's a different argument.
Sweetie's not a man . Sweetie was 14 when sweetie joined the forum 4 years ago with a delayed Bat Mitzvah.
Sweetie's still 14 , four years later with the bat mitzvah ceremony held less than a year ago.
No the age reported there is genuine in spite of the passage of 4 years & it certainly isn't on account of being born on a leap year. It's much worse than that . It's a function of autism.
The entire forum exists for speculation. The least we can do is be honest about it & indulge in credible speculations . Unlike sweetie & a lot of others out here or an any other fora who're here for one upmanship.
Yes they are perfectly safe. Thanks but no thanks for your faux concern.
The Paxtanis have already declared victory for your information. 12 airbases struck , their nuclear storage facility had its barn door knocked down which gave them the Herbie jeebies forcing them to rush to Carrot Top Dolund to get a CF.
Not a single proportional response by their side against similar assets in India yet they've declared a victory.
They declared a victory in 1971 too when their nation was partitioned & Bangladesh created , the ostensible reason being India couldn't prevail over what was then West Pakistan & today's Paxtan.
See any similarities to the mindset of Hamas or Hezbollah or even Iran post 7/10 devastation ?
The last word on it is yet to be said . Let's wait for a declaration by the IAF on their losses.
Don't think the IAF will get what it seeks from DoD. You need to get used to the fact that any one problem has multiple solutions & that your wunderwaffe F-35 may not necessarily be the only silver bullet in town .The cherry on top on all of this would be the IAF (humbled) goes to the US and ask to purchase the F-35 under US terms and not the IAFs. Hell imagine the US saying no to IAF on wanting F-35's that would be the cherry on top of the cherry.
As far as what the Indian armed forces think of US equipment goes scroll below sweetie & weep.
Indian Army Rejects U.S. Stryker APC in Favour of Indigenous AAP Wheeled Variant After Ladakh Trials
In a significant move towards self-reliance in defence manufacturing, the Indian Army has officially rejected the U.S.-made Stryker Armored Personnel Carrier
The IA has deemed the Stryker to be junk grade having failed multiple tests , hence rejected it in favour of indigenous solutions.
Who then can deny the same fate awaits the WiP not so stealthy ( as certified by camel humper Houthis ) F-35 if it was subjected to trials ?
It's a pretty good article, you can feel an effort to be objective, but it's not an article written by a specialist: the successful firing of the Rafale is not just a Chinese success, it's shared with Sweden, which supplied the AWACS, without which there would have been no success. What's more, the Indian Spectra lacked data on the PL-15 - an unbridled version unknown even to the French. A library gap. These data are now most certainly recorded. It is also possible that the Rafales were deployed on strike missions without making optimum use of their low-altitude penetration profile. Failure to comply with the optimum use doctrine (nap-of-the-earth profile) probably due to overconfidence and poor coordination. In addition, the Indian pilots may have been surprised by the opposing system, which was far removed from the Red Flag scenarios. Lastly, France did not send an operational delegation to accompany the IAF, as some decision-makers were reluctant to do so. This may have affected the exploitation of the Rafale's specific capabilities.What is your opinion on this France 24 report?
Chinese weapons pass combat test in India-Pakistan clash – with flying colours
The recent military engagement over Kashmir by South Asia’s arch enemies saw India deploy its French and US weapons against Pakistan’s new range of sophisticated Chinese arms. In its first battlefield…www.france24.com
Any air engagement was not possible already on that day, the Rafales were asked to maintain restrains to avoid any collateral damage. This was not the case for PAF, they kept engaging. Why not any AAM fired by India found on Pakistani side where as so many PL15's are found on Indian side? Clears the doubt
There are multiple aspects and facets of air-combat. MKI UPG. will be offensive against PAF J-35 using its on-board and other off-board sensors. IAF believe that. You can just dismiss it as fiction but I know what I'm talking about. Against China, it would be defensive which means it would remain inside our own IADS coverage and thwart enemy VLO incursions.
However to take on & dominate Chinese VLO jets inside China or some neutral place, we need Su-57M or some derivatives. AMCA MK2 would also do this job but it would receive FOC only in 2040. We can't wait so long to have our own VLO deterrent.
F-35 is not an ASF. The Murican fanboys can say whatever they want but USAF officially disagree with them:
Note: Stealth+ for F-22 & Stealth++ for F-47 along with both being marked for Air Superiority mission against what these stupid F-35 fanboys are claiming. @randomradio
We need our own 5th gen ASF to counter Chinese 5th gen ASFs like J-20 and beyond. At the moment Indianized Su-57 looks like the best and the safest choice for IAF.
Spitfire, I appreciate your attempt at mysticism — "better" is unknowable, everything’s secret, and public data is just noise.
Let me help you out.
Yes, public sources are limited — but they’re not useless. The entire field of OSINT, wargaming, and doctrine modeling is built on synthesizing open data, and it’s good enough that actual militaries pay attention to it. You claiming “everything is a secret” isn’t profound — it’s just a convenient way to duck technical discussion.
Now, let’s address the substance — or lack of it:
1. "F-35 isn't an ASF but it can kill ASFs"
Great, so a platform optimized for first-day stealth strike, SEAD, and BVR kills a legacy fighter in a scripted exercise and you think that rewrites air combat doctrine? That’s like saying a sniper rifle is now a shotgun because it won in a close-range drill.
The F-35 is not an air superiority platform by USAF doctrine. It lacks:
- Supercruise
- High instantaneous turn rate
- High climb rate
- EM dominance
What it does have is sensor fusion, stealth, and data-link advantages — making it deadly in BVR and highly survivable. That’s why it complements, not replaces, the F-22 and upcoming NGAD.
2. "F-15EX has superior sensors"
Sure, and a delivery van can carry more groceries than a Ferrari. The F-15EX is a strike jet, not a dogfighter. It exists to carry long-range munitions, JASSMs, hypersonics, and act as an arsenal plane. Not to mix it up with stealth fighters in contested airspace.
Calling it “superior” to the F-35 because it has a big radar is like calling a lighthouse better than a submarine.
3. "We don’t know anything — it’s all hidden"
This is your go-to when cornered. Yes, certain specs are classified. But doctrine isn’t. Procurement strategy isn’t. Combat roles aren’t.
We know the F-35 is a multirole fighter. We know the F-15EX is a payload truck. We know NGAD is being developed because neither of the above fits the future air dominance mold.
4. "China will fly 10,000 sorties a day!"
Only if they replace their logistics with Amazon Prime. Flying jets is easy. Sustaining air dominance over thousands of miles, across contested sea lanes, against superior ISR and SAM coverage — that’s the game. Right now, they aren’t there. Not even close.
You want to sound like the guy who “knows the secrets.”
But real operators — and analysts — work with what’s available, read between the lines, and understand intent, structure, and capability.
You? You just quote a kill stat from an exercise, ignore decades of doctrinal evolution, and say "we’ll never know for sure" like a profound mystic who has already entered heaven and waiting for hoories while having a sip of alcohol.
So here's your answer:
Except IAF is fully onboard the AMCA project and isn't considering F-35 or Su-57, regardless of what some might claim. We invested hundreds of millions in Su-57 project, and the Russians actively violated the terms of agreement. IAF has long memory, even if some here don't.
Never said F-35 is ASF. Refer to my comment again to verify. F-47/NGAD will replace the F-22, won't serve alongside. But this will happen sometime around late 30s, early 40s.
On that much we agree. They can't sign the engine deal with RR soon enough. Should be a mission mode project for IAF but here we are.
Agreed but what makes you say that the PLAAF/PLANAF won't have a whole host of passive and active sensors, on-board and off-board? I believe we're above PAF, and focus (even of these discussions) should be on thwarting the inevitable Chinese offensive. For argument's sake we say that our off-board and onboard active & passive sensors are better than the Chinese ones, we will still remain at a disadvantage against their 5th gen while on piloting a 4+gen with high RCS. We need a 5th gen of our own (AMCA), IAF is onboard that and should the need of a stopgap arise, it'll be, like I say, a stopgap of 40-60 jets with some ISEs. IAF won't dedicate precious resources committing to a foreign 5th gen, lock stock n barrel like MKI-fication of Su-57.